logo
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
View
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline sirgodfrey  
#1 Posted : Friday, April 10, 2009 6:52:30 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

Just something that I have pondered. What is the fate of christians? It just seems so complicated to me. They accept the gracious gift of salvation of God, but don't know the true name of God that reveals so much other stuff. Torah being righteousness, they don't adhere to that (most i guess) because popular doctrine teaches that it was "nailed to the cross." They think that it's ok to associate themselves with Easter and Christmas. All food is clean now. The list goes on, I'm sure.

Interested in peoples views of this. I'm not sure what I think, but I have thoughts that most christians are extremely ignorant of many things that pertain to Yahuweh. Of course I'm no scholar, but if the Shephard is leading me (you guys/gals also as well as others across the globe )out of babylon, why aren't others coming out of babylon?

shalom, happy shabat
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#2 Posted : Friday, April 10, 2009 7:58:24 PM(UTC)
TRUTH B-TOLD
Joined: 3/7/2008(UTC)
Posts: 133
Man
Location: USA

Shalom sirgodfrey,

It is a terrible fate that awaits them, I think you can sum it up with what Yahuweh reveals in 2Thess.chapter #2. Here are some verses that descrbe how Satan will take control of the religions and deceive them away from the truth and into destruction.

2Thess.2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,except there come a falling away firstand that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called elohim,or that is worshipped; so that he as elohim sitteth in the temple of elohim, shewing himself that he is elohim.


2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom Yahushua shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;because they received not the love of the truth,that they might be saved.

2:11 And for this cause Yahuweh shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


I would that mainstream church going christains fall into this group, very sad, I still have lots of family that will not leave the teat of the whore.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#3 Posted : Friday, April 10, 2009 8:37:13 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

If the fate of them is as you have described, then it is certainly a terrible thing. One thing that confuses me is how many are "born again" and turn away from a life of "sin" in that they no longer live lives the way that they use to. Not many are teaching the Truth concerning Torah and so forth, so could it be that they are simply kept in a state of spiritual immaturity, but are still Yahuweh's children?

Offline Matthew  
#4 Posted : Saturday, April 11, 2009 2:27:03 AM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
I've asked kp something similar before on the It doesn't seem to make sense... thread

Matthew wrote:
To answer your question "Have you ever met a 100% perfectly obedient believer?", my answer is "No, I haven't", but I have met some with horribly wrong doctrinal beliefs, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, etc. So to add more to my original question, even though their doctrine is horribly wrong, won't their belief in Yahshua's salvation earn them a Rapture passport? If Catholics get "taken" then the Catholic Church won't have much effect in the last days as they would have lost most of their support. Then to add more: What about Matthew 25, concerning the foolish virgins, the talent keepers and the separation of the sheep and the goats, is this chapter referring to those who believe after the Rapture or more do with those who died before it, or both? Because from my understanding this passage refers to believers who accepted the Messiah but then never followed through with obedience. And we know that the Raptured are saved but won't be judged, in the negative sense.

But then from reading Matthew 25 and other passages we find that there is a limit to Yahweh's salvation, which includes turning ones back, continuing in disobedience, leading others astray, etc. I gather this is where it comes down to a man's heart and his level of understanding, and only Yahweh knows the heart of a man.

... [cut out a bit]

And concerning who will be Raptured: Technically, those who teach, unknowingly, false doctrine in church are effectively leading others astray. Will these be Raptured too? From my understanding of Matthew 5:19 shows that there is a level of grace when teaching falsely, at least unknowingly. Matthew 5:19 "Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men to do so, shall be least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be great in the reign of the heavens."
Source

Here's kp's response:

kp wrote:
Matthew, although it's not my place to judge hearts, as far as I can tell (based on their "horribly wrong doctrine," as you put it) JWs and Mormons don't actually have a "belief in Yahshua's salvation." Theirs is a religion of works, period. Although they use some of the right words, the meanings they assign to them have been twisted into something unrecognizable by Biblical standards. They haven't got a prayer of being included in the rapture. Catholic doctrine is just as bad, but there are nominal Catholics (very few) who ignore or deny their church's error and maintain a simple faith in Yahshua's grace. But the vast majority buy into the papal bull (so to speak) and disqualify themselves from a relationship with Yahweh in the process. The vast majority of practicing Catholics will be left behind. In short, it's not what you do (or don't do), but Who you know. It's not your religion, but your relationship with Yahweh that counts.

The three illustrations of Matthew 25 teach three different truths, concerning three different groups. The ten virgins tells how Philadelphia will be raptured while Laodicea will be left behind (Revelation 3). The key is: oil represents the Holy Spirit---either She is dwelling within you, lighting your life, or you're still in the dark. Note that the five foolish virgins, however, can still buy oil, just not while the party is going on---that is, the door of salvation remains open to the Laodiceans until the Millennium commences, but they will not come to faith until after the rapture. This tardiness in belief is precisely what defines them as Laodiceans. I covered all of this stuff in Future History by the way. I know it's long, but maybe you ought to read it.

The parable of the talents speaks of the rewards (or lack therof) that will be received by believers at the "Bema" or Judgment Seat of Christ. It has nothing to do with salvation, and everything to do with God's recognition of our faithfulness. Note that all three servants served the same Master, but some did well and some acted like lazy idiots.

The last illustration, the sheep and goats, describes the mortal population still living at the end of the Tribulation (few as they might be). Some will be counted worthy to enter the Kingdom, and some will be summarily slain. The interesting, terrifying thing here is that one's "doctrinal position" has nothing to do with one's worthiness at this point, for the simple reason that the knowledge of Yahweh's grace has been forcibly suppressed in the world for years by this time. Nobody has a doctrinal position. Rather, one's beliefs are judged simply by their actions---did they follow their consciences; did they do what they knew in their hearts to be right, even if it put them in danger to do so?

Finally, the only "limit to Yahweh's salvation" is the one that He imposed upon Himself from the very beginning. He made it our prerogative to choose Him or reject Him. He won't force us to love Him. It's up to us. He paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world, but He won't force anyone to walk out of the prison doors He opened up for us. Incredibly, many will choose to stay and rot there.

kp
Source

Hope it adds to the thread ;)
Offline sirgodfrey  
#5 Posted : Saturday, April 11, 2009 10:21:16 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

It can be quite perplexing especially when scripture talks about those who "do" the law being considered righteous. I'm reminded just now of the scripture where it talks about those who labor, but their works are burned up in the fire when tested.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I feel that "tunnel vision" is killing many christians. I can empathize because I used to be the same way. Now, stepping out of the box, it saddens me to observe the lies and deceit that they perpetuate without knowing. The problem gets more complicated when one tries to share with them what he/she has learned when stepping away from the lies and truly hearing Yahuweh's voice -- christendom has blinded many.
Offline dodi  
#6 Posted : Saturday, April 11, 2009 11:13:27 AM(UTC)
dodi
Joined: 2/18/2009(UTC)
Posts: 107
Woman
Location: Pennsylvania

sirgodfrey wrote:
christendom has blinded many.


How true this statement is. It's funny that this thread came up here today. I have been battling blinded christians for a couple of days now and it's so sad to see how they think and believe in false doctorine.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#7 Posted : Saturday, April 11, 2009 6:02:18 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

Please dodi, share whatever information you may have with the love of Yah. I'm done battling people :) If they would like to hear my take on things, they may surely have it. If not, I just leave it alone. It's all so sad. May more and more people journey away from Christendom's lies.
Offline dodi  
#8 Posted : Saturday, April 11, 2009 6:34:12 PM(UTC)
dodi
Joined: 2/18/2009(UTC)
Posts: 107
Woman
Location: Pennsylvania

Thanks
What made the situation more frustrating for me was that the people that were trying to battle with me made it seem for months that they wanted to hear what I had to say. But as soon as that nerve was struck, they started throwing stones. I don't mind discussing things. It not only may help others but it helps me also. There are times when I wish I could go on my roof and yell out Yah's Word!
But, when others get too mean I like to take the advice of Yahshua and wipe their dust from my feet :)

Has anyone had this experience? Your in a discussion with "christians" and there are several against what you are saying and several that are saying the same thing as you are. When the ones that are against what is being said, they single you out and not the others? That happens to me all the time! I would just like to know why.
Offline dodi  
#9 Posted : Sunday, April 12, 2009 8:58:26 AM(UTC)
dodi
Joined: 2/18/2009(UTC)
Posts: 107
Woman
Location: Pennsylvania

I found this today.

Quote:
ISRAEL and the DOGS

The only two "denominations" that will be in the world-to-come will be "ISRAEL" (Rev. 21:12), and "DOGS" (Rev. 22:15). Israel is the only one you need to be identified as now, unless you WANT to be in the other denomination. When you pass through the waters of the COVENANT of immersion into the Name of Yahushua, you become a fully-fledged, one-fell-swoop ISRAELITE. If you follow Yahushua, then your "sect" is the "NATSARIM" (see Acts 24:5). The 12 tribes are spread abroad into all the Gentiles (Amos 9:9, Jas. 1:1), and Yahushua is calling them to Himself, searching them out through his workers in the harvest. You may have been the Dalai Lama, or a Mexican Chinese Negro Italian-Irish Buddhist formerly, but once you pass through that water (immersion, tevila, or baptism), and vow to obey your Creator, Yahushua, you are a NEW creation. An Israelite. The UN* won't like it, and neither will your parents, your pastor, or your friends. Too bad, this is simply a fact of life, and the only way to eternal life. Peculiar? You betcha! The WWCG, Baptist, Amish, Catholic, Episcopal, Jehovah Witness, Lutheran, Mennonite, or you-name-it -- all must come to the conclusion that their days are over. In fact, they never had their day, in truth, using Scripture as the proof. ISRAEL is the only bride of YHWH -- He'll never change His mind about it either, He's especially faithful about this. Read about it sometime. Yahushua's "bride" or wife is called "Qahal Yisrael", Assembly of Israel. That's your denomination. You engraft (Romans 11) at your immersion into His Name, and at that moment you accept the Name of your Husband - the Covenant represents your wedding vows. The Covenant is a marriage covenant with the Maker of Heaven and Earth. Outside this Covenant, and this denomination, can there be salvation according to the revealed Word of YHWH?


There will be 2 "denominations" in the world-to-come. One of them will be permitted to enter the gates, and the other will have to remain outside:

ISRAEL (Rev. 21:12) These “do His Commands” (keep the Commandments), and may eat of the Tree of Life, and enter through the gates of the New Yerushaliyim. Mt. 15:26 refers to Israel as "the children", and the woman not of Israel as a "dog" -- but she had the choice to remain a "dog" or convert and become an Israelite -- as do we all. At the time she made her request, she was a "dog" because she was not obedient to the Covenant YHWH made exclusively with Israel, the ONLY people He has revealed His Word to (Torah, Commandments - Ps 147:19,20).

DOGS (Rev. 22:15) These stay outside, never eating of the Tree of Life, nor entering into the gates of the New Yerushaliyim. Why? They do NOT “do His Commands” (keep the Commandments). They may be “religious”, but may follow a made-up “way” which is about Messiah, but not the correct way. Satan “believes”, but won’t obey. If we can make up our own way, like believe Sunday is the Sabbath, then what Cain did (offering what he pleased) should have been acceptable — should YHWH apologize to Cain? If someone tells you that you DON'T NEED TO OBEY the Covenant, the 10 Commandments, does that mean they are of ISRAEL, or the DOGS? We should be able to discern them by their fruit (works), and teachings.

One program is given by YHWH, and yet there are thousands of other programs invented by men, which intend to be correct, but are not.

That's all there is; 2 denominations. So the choice should be easy for us.
http://realdeception.net/This_is_Gonna_Hurt_.html
Offline bitnet  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:13:46 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

The only thing that we can do is to live Scripture as best as we can, and not be afraid to explain why we believe what we believe to whomever wants to listen. No point getting into debates with people, Christians or otherwise, as it is only Yahweh who does the calling. Share your conviction with gentle firmness, but never seek to convert others. What happens to Christians who think they are saved is a big subject, and is answered in God Damn Religion.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline James  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:09:12 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
Like Yada says, "we are called to expose lies and witness to the truth". To that end, I can't say that a christian is saved or not, i can only say that a particular doctrine is wrong, explain why, and attempt to teach what Scripture says. That doctrine may be enough to condemn them, or it may not, it is not for me to say, and I'm grateful for that.

I think when we try to get in to is some one saved or not, we get distracted from the point. I have had many ideas wrong in the past, and probably still have a few wrong, but I strive for the truth, and that is all I can do. Seek and you shall find. No matter how lost a person is, if they seek Yahweh he will help them to find Him.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline sirgodfrey  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, April 14, 2009 12:50:02 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

James wrote:
Seek and you shall find. No matter how lost a person is, if they seek Yahweh he will help them to find Him.


I am aware that this is true; however, what about when Yahuweh says that men with-hold others from entering into the kingdom by their falsities? These people may be, to a certain extent at least, searching for some type of truth - but what they get is commandments and doctrines of men which keep them lost and consequently perpetuates their dead state of being separated from Yah.
Offline James  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, April 15, 2009 4:29:18 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
SGF wrote:
I am aware that this is true; however, what about when Yahuweh says that men with-hold others from entering into the kingdom by their falsities? These people may be, to a certain extent at least, searching for some type of truth - but what they get is commandments and doctrines of men which keep them lost and consequently perpetuates their dead state of being separated from Yah.


If they are seeking and settle for that then they weren't seeking Yahweh to begin with, but seeking anything.
I believe for most the trappings of religion are a comfort, and they are happy with that. These people are afraid of the Freedom that comes with having a personal relationship with Yahweh.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.