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Offline Theophilus  
#1 Posted : Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:08:41 AM(UTC)
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A gap that I'm attempting to fill is what transpired between the Flood of Noah's day and the time of Abraham's Covenant about a thousand years later? It seems perplexing to me that Yah would use a Flood to cleanse the part of the Earth on which dwelt people who like Adam where equipped with a nesamah - conscience leaving all eight survivors having experienced Yahweh's power both to judge and to deliver.

I gather Noah's sons at some point moved to various parts of the post flood world and presumably intermarried with distant survivors who were not descended from Adam. Human life spans dropped to current levels. At least one of Noah's descendants established a concentrated settlement on the Shinar plain and angered Yahweh to the point of dispersing the settlements and languages. It seems perplexing to me that knowledge of Yahweh seemed to have disappeared while the many faces and names mystery Babylon spread throughout the region to include Mesopotamia, Canaan, Egypt and elsewhere.

Do we have evidence that a remnant remembered and knew Yahweh or did Paganism completely overtake humanity until Abraham was called? It seems we have a comparatively better picture of what transpired between Adam and Noah's time and again from Abraham on.

Some have suggested that Job dates back to Abraham's time which suggests that some people did know of Yahweh.

I wonder what I can find in KP's and Yada's writings to help fill in this millennial gap?
Offline kp  
#2 Posted : Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:17:26 AM(UTC)
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Since the scriptures are the story of the redemption of mankind (to the exclusion of other potentially significant history) it makes sense that after the division of tongues in Genesis 11, we're given the Messianic genealogy up through Abram, but other family groups are not discussed (at least, not on purpose). We are, however, given some interesting insights along the way. Job (a near contemporary of Abram, according to most scholars) and his friends, though not in the messianic line, were apparently worshippers of Yahweh---they knew Him by character and reputation, if not by name. And even though they got some things wrong (don't we all?) they still had better understanding of who God is than the average man today. Also, in Abram's day, the Pharaoh in Egypt was willing to listen to and heed the "circumstantial" voice of Yahweh (Genesis 12:17-20), a position far closer to "belief" (though I can't claim he was a follower of Yahweh) than Moses' Pharaoh. I get the feeling that there were quite a few places where the true God was honored, even after Babylon gained a foothold. But we don't hear about them because they don't bear directly on the Plan Yahweh had for our Salvation.

kp
Offline Matthew  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, January 6, 2010 7:29:28 AM(UTC)
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I'm not sure of your guys take on the Book of Yasher but it has a lot of interesting information, for example the early life of Abraham, his relationship with his father and peers, his encounter with Nimrod, etc. There's a lot of "beind-the-scenes" information, starting from Genesis and going through to Joshua. I'm not suggesting the Book of Yasher is Scripture but it does provide a lot of insight, for example it tells us that Moses didn't circumcise his first born son because his father-in-law requested him not to (78:9), something we're not told in Genesis.

I've also been reading a book about world history spanning the last 4 million years (A Very Short History of the World by Geoffrey Blainey), and he is suggesting that around the time of the flood there were already groups of people across the globe, such as in the Americas and Asia, who already had their own unique and simple languages, some even displaying "religious" beliefs prior to Adam. In my mind there is no question that mankind accelerated in intelligence from Adam onwards (6000 years ago), an obvious strong hint of Yahweh's influence, but history suggests that mankind was quite smart prior to the time of Adam.
Offline James  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, January 6, 2010 9:06:08 AM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
I'm not sure of your guys take on the Book of Yasher but it has a lot of interesting information, for example the early life of Abraham, his relationship with his father and peers, his encounter with Nimrod, etc.


I'm not familiar with the Book of Yasher, but if it suggests that Abram encountered Nimrod, then it is horribly wrong, Nimrod was 2 generations away from Noah, through the line of Ham, Abram was 9 generations away from Noah, through the line of Shem. These two where no where near close to contemporaries. Mohammad made this same mistake, he talked of Abraham meeting Nimrod.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline Matthew  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, January 6, 2010 9:09:07 AM(UTC)
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James wrote:
I'm not familiar with the Book of Yasher, but if it suggests that Abram encountered Nimrod, then it is horribly wrong, Nimrod was 2 generations away from Noah, through the line of Ham, Abram was 9 generations away from Noah, through the line of Shem. These two where no where near close to contemporaries. Mohammad made this same mistake, he talked of Abraham meeting Nimrod.

I must say the same thought occurred to me as I was writing my comment, I was wondering if Abe lived at the same time as Nimrod. I hadn't bothered to check it out though.
Offline James  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, January 6, 2010 9:17:00 AM(UTC)
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Theophilus wrote:
A gap that I'm attempting to fill is what transpired between the Flood of Noah's day and the time of Abraham's Covenant about a thousand years later? It seems perplexing to me that Yah would use a Flood to cleanse the part of the Earth on which dwelt people who like Adam where equipped with a nesamah - conscience leaving all eight survivors having experienced Yahweh's power both to judge and to deliver.

I gather Noah's sons at some point moved to various parts of the post flood world and presumably intermarried with distant survivors who were not descended from Adam. Human life spans dropped to current levels. At least one of Noah's descendants established a concentrated settlement on the Shinar plain and angered Yahweh to the point of dispersing the settlements and languages. It seems perplexing to me that knowledge of Yahweh seemed to have disappeared while the many faces and names mystery Babylon spread throughout the region to include Mesopotamia, Canaan, Egypt and elsewhere.

Do we have evidence that a remnant remembered and knew Yahweh or did Paganism completely overtake humanity until Abraham was called? It seems we have a comparatively better picture of what transpired between Adam and Noah's time and again from Abraham on.

Some have suggested that Job dates back to Abraham's time which suggests that some people did know of Yahweh.

I wonder what I can find in KP's and Yada's writings to help fill in this millennial gap?


It seems to be that by the time of the Tower of Babel, and the scattering of the people that paganism had taken a pretty firm hold. Something interesting I found while translating that section of genesis, is in Genesis 11:6 the word usually translated a began saying that they began to do this, the word in Hebrew is halal, which means defiled, profanes, treated with contempt, caused others to be of lower status and so be in a humbled position, pierced, and cast others down, as well as began. This tells us how they where able to accomplish what they had. This is why I think that by this time they where pretty far gone. I'm sure that some knowledge of Yahuweh remained, but it was likely scattered, and his followers likely persecuted. But i would agree with Ken that what happened between here and Abram is not really of much importance to Yahuweh, so he doesn't tell us.

Interestingly the same word was used in talking of Nimrod, where it says Nimrod began to be a mighty warrior in the land, the word began is once again Halal. Again this tells us what Nimrod did to become a mighty warrior, not just that he became one.
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Offline James  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, January 6, 2010 9:19:26 AM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
I must say the same thought occurred to me as I was writing my comment, I was wondering if Abe lived at the same time as Nimrod. I hadn't bothered to check it out though.


Yeah I was just in that section of Scripture last week, so it was pretty fresh on my mind. And i remembered Yada pointing it out in POD.
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Offline Matthew  
#8 Posted : Thursday, January 7, 2010 4:19:09 AM(UTC)
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I've been working on the geneaology record for the past hour or so and it's very plausible that Nimrod was still alive at the time of Abraham. Shelah, Noah's great-grandson, lived for about another 178 years after Abraham's birth, with even Noah still being alive at the time of Abraham's birth, Noah being some 894 years old at the time. It goes Noah, Shem, Arphaxed, Shelah, Eber, Peleg, Reu, Serug, Nahor, Terah, Abraham, and it goes Noah, Ham, Cush, Nimrod. And since Nimrod is also Noah's great-grandson, like Shelah is, it is plausible that he too survived well past Abraham's birth, even though Biblical geneaology is silent in regards to Ham's descendents and their appropriate ages. Also, legend has it that Esau, Abraham's grandson, killed Nimrod.
Offline kp  
#9 Posted : Thursday, January 7, 2010 10:14:52 AM(UTC)
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The legend I heard was that Shem slew Nimrod.

kp
Offline Matthew  
#10 Posted : Thursday, January 7, 2010 11:15:02 AM(UTC)
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Yeah, could very well be that it was Shem who got rid of Nimrod, to me it sounds likely. I got my info from some Rabbinical websites, hmmm, very sketchy info which I can't be too sure of. But it does seem like there was a lot of controversy surrounding Nimrod's death, Wiki lists the possibility of him being killed by a wild animal, that Shem could've killed him and tore his body to pieces for leading people into Baal worship and that maybe Esau beheaded him.
Offline James  
#11 Posted : Thursday, January 7, 2010 12:47:02 PM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
Yeah, could very well be that it was Shem who got rid of Nimrod, to me it sounds likely. I got my info from some Rabbinical websites, hmmm, very sketchy info which I can't be too sure of. But it does seem like there was a lot of controversy surrounding Nimrod's death, Wiki lists the possibility of him being killed by a wild animal, that Shem could've killed him and tore his body to pieces for leading people into Baal worship and that maybe Esau beheaded him.

The wild animal one sounds interesting, if I recall correctly, Nimrod was the prototype so to speak for Tamuz, and Tamuz was said to have been killed by a wild boar, hence the Easter Ham.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline dugdoo56  
#12 Posted : Friday, January 8, 2010 1:11:19 PM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote..."but history suggests that mankind was quite smart prior to the time of Adam."
As a new one to all of this, I was always "taught" that Adam was the first person on Earth. How can Mankind have been smart prior to Adam, if He was the first one?? Was there Humans around before Him?? Someone once suggested that God never creates bad things, so the Earth was perfect when He created it. Satan rebelled and was cast down like lightening which destroyed the Earth making it lifeless and void. God then re-created it with Adam as the first person. Any thoughts? Regards to all..keep up the great work...I love reading it. DD.
Offline Theophilus  
#13 Posted : Friday, January 8, 2010 1:41:23 PM(UTC)
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dugdoo56 wrote:
Matthew wrote..."but history suggests that mankind was quite smart prior to the time of Adam."
As a new one to all of this, I was always "taught" that Adam was the first person on Earth. How can Mankind have been smart prior to Adam, if He was the first one?? Was there Humans around before Him?? Someone once suggested that God never creates bad things, so the Earth was perfect when He created it. Satan rebelled and was cast down like lightening which destroyed the Earth making it lifeless and void. God then re-created it with Adam as the first person. Any thoughts? Regards to all..keep up the great work...I love reading it. DD.

Greetings dugdoo56 and since I've not communicated with you before welcome to the forum. Certainly Adam is regarded by most Christians as the first human. I believe Matthew is referring what the associated online book Yada Yahweh in volume one - Genesis third chapter called Chay - Life and the chapters soon after describe Adam as the first human made in Yahweh's likeness by becoming endowed with a neshama - conscience.

While I'm familiar with the account of the Adversary being cast out of heaven like lightning, and that Creation was regarded by Yahweh as initially very good, I'm not familiar with any evidence Scriptural or otherwise to indicate that the Earth was destroyed and remade lifeless.

-Theophilus
Offline RidesWithYah  
#14 Posted : Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:38:03 AM(UTC)
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My understanding is here
Offline Mike  
#15 Posted : Monday, January 11, 2010 8:26:26 AM(UTC)
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Welcome to the Forum dugdoo56.

This is from YY – Genesis – Eden book and the thought is similar to “The Science of God” by Gerald Schroeder.

“…and relationally (‘asher) He placed (sym – established) the man (‘Adam) He formed (yasar – planned, fashioned, and created) there (sam – in that position and place).” (Genesis 2:8) The entire universe, like the joyous shelter, was established for man. From God’s perspective, we exist in the center of the universe.

There is something else worth pondering here. By using sym/placed, God is inferring that mankind was created outside of the garden, and that this man, Adam, was placed there after receiving the nesamah.

“Yahuweh, God, formed (forged and fashioned, planned and prepared) ‘Adam/man from the powdery dust (fine dirt or very small natural material particles) of the ground (‘adamah – soil or earth) and blew (napah – breathed) into his nostrils the life-giving, restoring and sustaining (hayim) conscience (nesamah – seat of judgment, of recognizing the difference between right and wrong, discernment and discrimination), and ‘Adam came to exist as (hayah) a living (hay / chay) soul (nepesh).” (Genesis 2:7)

The living creature known as man was the last animal God created on the sixth day. He fashioned the male and female human form, as with all other forms of life, from natural elements of the earth by manipulating their DNA code. But something was different about the species Homo sapiens. God designed a unique animal with a special capacity to think, to communicate, to be creative and productive, to walk upright, and to conceive and raise children in a loving and nurturing family, teaching and protecting them in a manner which would embrace the covenant He envisioned.

In this regard, of the millions of animal forms on earth, man is unlike any other — a species made in the likeness of God. Simply stated, if you can envision a man and woman who are husband and wife, standing before the shelter of their home with a child between them, you understand Yahweh and His purpose. After watching this new creature for a while, God took one specific human, He named him Adam, and gave He him a nesamah/conscience so that He could begin a relationship with this solitary, judgmental and discerning man. Yahweh designed and built a perfect paradise for him, and He placed Adam inside. This is the reason that the creation account of men and women and of Adam and Chawah is told twice, once generally of all humankind and once specifically of two very unique individuals.

This would make the humans inside and outside of Yah’s protection divergent only in that Adam and Chawah had both a nesamah/conscience and a personal relationship with God. This relationship, in my judgment, was perfect for two Yowbel, or 100 years, and then, using their nesamah, or seat of judgment, poorly Adam and Chawah were banished from the garden and exposed to the rest of the world—even to the rest of humanity.

These things considered, it matters not if my speculation is right or wrong. My purpose was to provide you with a scenario which was both plausible and completely consistent with Scripture and science. Humankind is a special animal and Adam and Chawah were an especially unique couple. Their ancestry is common, but not their conscience.
Offline dugdoo56  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:14:59 AM(UTC)
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Thanks Mike...I often wondered that...where it states that Yahweh made Man, Male and Female He made them, in Genesis 1, then in Genesis 2, Adam was given the "Breath of Life" and Chawah was made as a companion for him when no other was suitable. Now it makes sense that Humans were created outside of the Garden first and then Adam was created and inside the Garden. Thanks for that. I am constantly amazed at the new things I learn each day on this site...Regards..DD
Offline James  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:32:36 AM(UTC)
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dugdoo56 wrote:
I am constantly amazed at the new things I learn each day on this site...Regards..DD

I've been coming here for about 3 or 4 years now, and I still learn new things all the time. It just goes to show, you can always learn more.
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Offline dajstill  
#18 Posted : Friday, February 24, 2012 2:26:24 AM(UTC)
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This is an old thread, but I just found a life line chart that is very interesting to me. I compared it to the Scriptures and the Book of Jasher and it makes complete sense to me:

http://www.judaismvschri...ife_spans_patriarchs.htm

Definitely print and read the genealogy chart. Even if "off" by a few years - it still makes total sense in a number of ways. For instance, it answers the question of "why Abraham". Abraham wasn't some "random" guy - he was part of the bloodline of Noah (I know Christians believe all humans are decendents of Noah, but if it is true that the flood was isolated to a certain land mass area - having Abraham be a decedent of Noah makes lots of sense).

I was most happy about the information on Melchizedek - very plausible and shows YHWH isn't doing random things, but fullfilling His initial plan and design through willing individuals. Answering a lot of questions that I had. Of course, it also gives another reason t reject ole Paul and his followers that supposed Melchizedek was some alien guy walking around with no mom or dad.
Offline Bubsy  
#19 Posted : Friday, June 30, 2017 12:57:49 PM(UTC)
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Ba'Reshyth / Genesis 12:11-20 and Ba'Reshyth / Genesis 20:1-17 - same story, or two different experiences?

While reading through James' translation of Ba'Reshyth on his Yahowah Beryth website, I noticed similarities between the stories of Abraham, seemingly shortly after meeting Yahowah who said to him "To your seed I give this land", and when Abraham was getting ready to enter Mitsraym, being fearful that the Pharaoh would kill him in order to take Sarah for his own wife, and telling Sarai to say that he and she were brother and sister instead of husband and wife. So upon doing so, Pharaoh is led to believe that Sarah is available, and gives Abraham a bunch of livestock and servants for Sarah, apparently as a dowry. From there, the Ba'Reshyth 12 account goes right to Yahowah "touching Pharaoh with great plagues and his house upon the word of Sari, Abram's wife". That prompts Pharaoh to ask Abraham why he said Sarah was his sister, rather than his wife, though I don't see anything in the Ba'Reshyth 12 account where Pharaoh is ever told that Sarah is Abraham's wife, and not his sister. The Ba'Resyth 12 account then concludes with Abraham and Sarai being sent on their way.

The Ba'Reshyth 20 account is more detailed, seemingly sequentially after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Lot's daughters getting themselves pregnant by their father. In that account, Abraham goes to Gerar, and the king is named as Abimelech. This time, Abraham says of Sarah "she is my sister", though this time the story says nothing of Abraham fearing that the king would envy his beautiful wife so much that the king would kill him in order to take Sarah for himself before going in, though it does come out after the king learns the truth. Again, the king, thinking Sarah is available as a wife, takes Sarah, but this time the story tells of Yahowah talking to Abimelech in a dream and letting him know that Sarah is Abraham's wife. Again, the king, this time named as Abimelech asks Abraham, "What have you caused to happen to us?" This time, Abraham receives a bunch of livestock with the return of his wife, this time apparently as compensation. Abraham prays to Yahowah, and Yahowah heals Abimelech and all his household so they can conceive once again.

It almost looks like Abraham and Sarah went through the same sequence of events twice with two different kings, Abraham fearing each time that the king would kill him in order to take Sarah for himself, even though the second time he had had the experience that the first time, the king wasn't so envious of his wife as to do so. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a case of Abraham thinking along the lines of "Hey, this got me a bunch of livestock, servants, and riches the first time, let me try it again with another king and see if I get another payoff". Or maybe there's something wrong with the translation of Ba'Reshyth 12 in which the king is referred to as Pharaoh (of Egypt), and maybe this is actually the same story, with different details emphasized.
Ha Shem? I'm kind of fond of Ha Shemp, Ha Larry, and Ha Moe myself. And the earlier shorts with Ha Curly.
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