Interesting DevilDog. I recently heard a similar question asked of a Christian apologist, Dr. William Lane Yada, who had a number of thoughts, however the one that I was intrigued by was about providential design. His topic was on evidence for a Creator. He spoke about the evidence that the universe had a definite beginning and required fine tuning of values found in nature called constants in order to sustain life as we know it. I don't know if this fits YY's pre- or un-Neshamah-ed humanoids, but Dr. Yada brought up an notion that prehaps the creation was so finely created that an unreached people group may not contian the a first person who would (beyond disagreeing with tribal policies) accept the good news, until the good news actually reached that person or people group.

Just some food for thought.

A couple of random observations on the subject. (1) All humans have a neshama, the capacity for Spiritual indwelling, a "conscience," if you will. Anthropologists have noted the phenomenon of "religion" in the most isolated of peoples---evidence that man, left in a spiritual vacuum, will invariably attempt to fill the spiritual void he feels within. (As far as I can tell, Devildog, men who walked the earth before Adam---about 6,000 years ago---were not so equipped: they were mere animals (or at least, that's what their wives said :-) (2) Yahweh, being the epitome of fairness, will never hold someone to be responsible to reflect more light than has come his way. (3) It's our reaction to the evidence we receive for or about God---not the amount of evidence---for which Yahweh holds us accountable. The primitive tribeman who perceives his obligation to an ill-defined "great spirit" Creator he surmises must exist is far closer to God's truth than the learned but detached theologian who pontificates that Yahweh was the name given by bronze age Hebrews to their local deity, a god who was no more or less real than Ba'al, Molech, or Chemosh was to their respective devotees. (4) Missionaries reaching the jungle tribes in many cases brought religion, not enlightenment, to the unwashed heathen. (5) All other things being equal, intellectual knowledge of God's Word is something that man usually needs in order to make the transition from "Great Spirit" mentality to a personal relationship with Yahweh. That's the reason for the Great Commission. (6) Remaining untouched by the errant religions of "civilized" man is no guarantee of primal enlightenment, nor is it the kiss of spiritual death. The fact is universal: "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Matthew 7:13-14) That's as true in Papua New Guinea as it is in Pittsburg.

kp

Just saw this and would like to quote KP from the science thread:



So did Yahuweh create a manlike creature lacking a conscience along with the beasts and the like, just to create a different manlike creature later, Adam, replete with a conscience, or did this humanlike conscience lacking animal evolve? Did man live with the Dinosaurs? How long ago? If I am grasping this, you are saying that if a man was around before approx. 4000 bce, he was lacking a conscience. Yes? Thanks for helping.

Although we have precious little definitive scriptural evidence (since that's not what the Bible's about), my sense is that, as you hypothesized, "Yahuweh created a manlike creature lacking a conscience along with the beasts and the like, just to create a different manlike creature later, Adam, replete with a conscience." (I'd characterize the neshama as something more significant than merely a conscience, however. It's our species' unique capacity to host an eternal spirit within our souls---something no animal has.)

It's clear that classical "Darwinian" evolution had nothing to do with this process, since there wasn't nearly enough time in which chance had an opportunity to work---in truth, the theory of evolution was all washed up the moment it was proved that the universe had a beginning. The theory requires near-infinite amounts of time in which to operate, but scientists have pinned down the age of the universe (since the big bang) at about 13.7 billion years, and worse (for the evolutionists) our solar system is only about 4.5 billion years old. Still worse, primitive life showed up immediately after the earth cooled and liquid water condensed to cover most of the planet. And at strategic steps along the way, new life forms---fully developed, with no evolutionary trail leading back to previous species---appeared "spontaneously" on the earth. At the so-called "Cambrian explosion" where we see the first fossil record, every phylum ever extant on the earth is represented there. You'd have to be blind to miss what's going on: Yahweh was preparing this planet for our use, providing an atmosphere suitable for us, soil in which to grow our food, and scavengers to clean up the mess (so no, man-like creatures did not coexist with the dinos).

Proto-man (Cro Magnon, Neandertal, etc.) showed up maybe 300,000 years ago. I'd class earlier creatures like australopithicines as extinct, sophisticated apes. Perhaps I'm off-base here, but I look at these creatures as God's sketchbook---the method He used to decide what physical form He'd like Man to take. But when He decided it was time to "sculpt" His Masterpiece, Adam, He pulled out all the stops, so to speak, making him and Chavvah perfect specimens of the ultimate creature. Then (in Genesis 2:7) Yahweh "signed" His work, equipping Adam with a neshama, the "breath of life." Was Adam a descendent of some earlier form? Apparently not, for the verse cited says "Yahweh Elohim formed man of the dust of the ground..." God didn't start all over again with the design, but He did use a fresh sheet of paper.

Now here's where it gets interesting (and hits a little closer to home): The point of the flood of Noah's day was to wipe out "all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life" (Heb: neshama) except for Noah and his family (Genesis 7:22). Why? Because apparently the vast majority of those equipped with a neshama had chosen to be indwelled not with Yahweh's Spirit, but with Satan's. If there were still any proto-humans around (and it's quite possible that there were), they wouldn't have stood a chance against these intellectually superior creatures indwelled with demonic spirits. The reason we need to be cognizant of these things today is that Yahweh is not through separating the Ruach Qodesh-filled neshamym from the Satan-filled ones. The Tribulation will see a similar sifting of the spiritual chaff from the wheat.

kp

KP,
Wow. Thank you, brother. This is exactly why I was psyched about Yadanews. This forum will eventually answer most questions PPL will have, ranging from the beginning questions to the very complex. We can peruse through them as we come to that "level" of our journey and at our leisure. The service you guys are providing is immeasurable. Finally, a place for fellowship.

Don't get too, "psyched," DD. I've been known to make mistakes. :-)

As far as people not having access to Yahweh, "never having a chance to choose Yahweh or accept His gift because His words are nowhere to be found," I think for the most part, the argument is a red herring put forth by people desperate to find a plausible reason for rejecting God. The position is borne of two misconceptions:

(1) That Yahweh can't be perceived without access to the written Word. But that Word says, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night reveals knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard." (Psalm 19:1-3) Also, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse..." (Romans 1:18-20) Furthermore, today, when the earth's population has grown far more numerous than at any time in history, God's Word is available in the native languages of over 99.95% of the world's populace. And the Internet makes it freely available worldwide.

(2) The second misconception is one that has been taught by the Church since, like, forever. This is the notion that there are only two possible eternal destinations---heavenly bliss, and everlasting torment in hell. But as Yada and I have both explained, the Bible clearly (at least in the original languages) teaches that there is a third possibility: those who never make a choice to align themselves with either Yahweh or satan, in other words, those whose neshama is left empty of spiritual life, will simply cease to be when their soul (nephesh) departs from their body. Their physical death, then, is just like that of any animal, for all animals have souls---it's what makes them "alive." For more scriptural evidence, see Future History, chapter 29: "the Three Doors." YY also speaks of this at length. Thus the argument that "God can't be kind and loving if He sends people who have never even heard of Him to eternal torment" is groundless and silly. Yahweh is merciful toward the careless, misled, stupid, and victims of this world. But He won't force someone who hasn't chosen to be in His family to dwell in His presence forever. That would be no more right than sending them to hell because they happened to be born in the wrong century on the wrong continent.

kp

Yes, but don't take the ball and run with it, DD. I was referring to the Pygmy in the darkest jungle of Africa or some such place---the scenario that doubters invariably dredge up to make themselves feel better about telling God to stick it. Our short friend in the loin cloth may only "perceive" Yahweh through the wonders of creation. What he does with that perception is still up to him. It remains true for everyone: "Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Matthew 7:14) Rare is the pygmy who would pray in trusting faith to the "great spirit" he perceives to have created the world around him, without filtering his experience through the misleading influence of the local shaman or letting his cultural circumstance dominate his spiritual viewpoint. But it is possible.

My point is that we---all of us---are responsible to choose our spiritual destiny only on the basis of what light has been made available to us. That's why this whole discussion is such a red herring for most people: the vast majority of the world's population has been given some light, some indication that an all-powerful Creator God exists and operates in our world. And the vast majority choose not to respond to the light they've been shown. You grew up in America, the land of light. The name of Yahweh was available everywhere you turned, if only you'd cared to look. You were therefore responsible to perceive much more about spiritual truth than the average half-naked savage in Borneo. Yes, God preserved you, but how many friends have you known who had the same light shown to them as you did, and still chose to live in darkness? I am not recommending the lot of the ignorant savage. Having reliable information upon which to base your choices is always to be preferred. That's why we study, write, and correspond with folks.

kp

Wonderful. I thank you for your insight. I am beginning to wrap my head around this. I concur that America is the best place to come to know Him, and I was completely at fault for not searching Him out when I "felt" something throughout my life. I could try to rationalize or make excuses for why, but none of them matter. The "pygmy"scenario is still a little mysterious and intriguing to me.
If this pygmy recognizes that there must be a creator, and praises this unknown "thing" his whole life and then a respected elder from his clan informs him that this "Thing/God's" name/title is wannahockalugy, does this pygmy face his "choice" at that time, even though he has no way of finding the real truth? Can he be saved, praising this wannahockalugy, his remaining days, or does he need to die saying something like " I don't know who this creator is, but I know He's there and boy is His works evident and awesome"? I realize that salvation issues are touchy but I appreciate what you have to say.
BTW, I'm too tired to run with anything.

This is by far my favorite statement in the forum to date!! It took me a while to get it, but after saying it a few times I got it!!




But I will say this I am glad his name is Yahuweh, and there is something about knowing him that makes my life so grand! I just hope and believe that more believers would come to know him by his personal and proper name.

The interesting thing about that quote, James, is that the "he" in the second line is not actually there: what He said was, "Except you believe that I Am, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." Yahshua wasn't insisting on perfect comprehension of the linguistic nuances of the divine name. But He did require that we trustingly acknowledge that He, in His role as Messiah, is in fact Yahweh, albeit in a diminished form, voluntarily bereft of glory and dimensions for our benefit. In other words, even if we only know Him as Jesus, and even if we never learn the revealed name of Almighty God (because it has been edited out of our scriptures) our realization in faith that the one we call "Jesus" is God incarnate, Emmanuel ("God with us"), and not merely some human who tried to start a new religion on earth, is the key to entering the Kingdom of Heaven. That being said, it's far, far better to get it right. It helps immensely to know that the Messiah's name means: Yahweh is Salvation.

kp

It's an individual matter. I'm pretty sure it's possible to know Yahweh in a cultural vacuum. I just can't tell you if it ever happens. Fortunately, it's not an issue for me to call. Yahweh knows who His children are.

I certainly would not denigrate mission outreach on the basis of the mere possibility that one might be able to discover Yahweh independent of scriptural truth. As Paul writes, "For whoever calls on the name of Yahweh shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things! ...So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:13-17)

kp

this is a very interesting thread.... i'm sorry i didn't get a chance to read it until now. if we want to look at this in a scriptural stand point let's look at romans chapter one. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things..... let me know if that helps