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Offline sirgodfrey  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, November 25, 2008 9:32:21 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

I used to think that Jews were caucasian/"white"/anglo-saxon males with long beards and little hats... until I started to dig deeper. From what I understand so far, these people adopted the religion of Judaism after such and such a place was invaded. Now most of the world believes that they are "Israel" if you will. If the Khazar Jews aren't the descendants of Abraham, then who are? I realize that there is no easy answer to this, but it is very interesting to ponder especially knowing that the "fullness of the gentiles" is rapidly nearing. Scripture declares:

καὶ οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται καθὼς γέγραπται Ἥξει ἐκ Σιὼν ὁ ῥυόμενος καὶ ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας ἀπὸ Ἰακώβ

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Would LOVE LOVE LOVE to hear what my brothers and sisters have to say (or type) regarding this matter. I believe it to be quite significant.


Godfrey
Offline Matthew  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, November 25, 2008 9:55:00 AM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
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Location: São Paulo, Brazil

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I work in the Orthodox-Jewish area of São Paulo, lots of pointy hats, long beards, long curly side-burns, tassles, and smart black suits. They have fair skin, but looking at native Jews in Israel they look fairly similar.

I honestly believe it would be crazy and illogical for someone not Jewish to adopt the religion of Judaism. The question one would ask is: why? Therefore, I think these Orthodox Jews somehow do have a connection to Israel, I also imagine them to have Jewish blood with some traces of Gentile blood. But maybe I'm wrong.
Offline edStueart  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, November 26, 2008 3:01:49 AM(UTC)
edStueart
Joined: 10/29/2008(UTC)
Posts: 370
Location: Philadelphia

sirgodfrey wrote:
Where are the Jews?

At this time of year, many are headed for Miami!

Is a 6'3" blonde-haired, blue-eyed guy from Germany a Jew?
Is a 4'10" black-haired, brown-eyed guy from Ethiopia a Jew?

Google up "Who is a Jew?" to get a small taste of the controversy that rages around this debate.

Matthew wrote:
I think these Orthodox Jews somehow do have a connection to Israel, I also imagine them to have Jewish blood with some traces of Gentile blood.


Must... resist... temptation... to... use... Shecky Greene... or Lenny Bruce... nightclub... joke... here...

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline bitnet  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, November 26, 2008 3:46:07 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

Very quickly... the word Jew usually refers to those belonging to the state of Israel. In ancient parlance, Jew was actually Yahudy, those belonging to the state of Yahudah. This state was south of the state of Yisrael which comprised 10 of the tribes while Yahudah comprised the remnant (Yahudah, Benyamin and Lewi). After the ancient state of Yisrael was taken away, some of their citizens came back to live in Yahudah and some in the former Yisrael, renamed Samaria. Collectively, all were known as Hebrews. Since there was no Yisrael after the conquests by the easterners, all Hebrews were referred to as the people of Yahudah or Yahudy, a term which slowly changed to Jew. Remember, not everyone in Yahudah is of the tribe of Yahudah as there are people from other tribes but because they lived in Yahudah and observed the same Scriptures, they were known as Jews. From 2,000 years ago these people observed certain customs, held on to relatively unique beliefs and professed that a Messiah shall come to save them. They stayed in Yahudah, emigrated throughout the world and are now found almost everywhere. As such they are found bearing features of their neighbourhood -- in the Far East they may look Oriental, in the Middle East they retain their Semitic features, in the West they may feature more Caucasian features, and in Africa they may look like Obama. Looks do/should not count much in determining their identity as the over-riding factors are their spiritual beliefs and customs.

Now, everyone who believes in the covenant between Yahweh and Abraham, and who accepts the salvation of Messiah Yahushua and who strive to keep His Word and repent of their sins and come into fellowship with Yahweh are also counted as members of the House of Yisrael and shall be entitled to the promises made to Abraham. Spiritually each person is a Hebrew, crossing over from the ways of this world to follow Yahweh's Ways. In error, each believer is also generally referred to spiritual Jews or Yahudym. Whether you are of the existing physical House of Yahudah or the returning House of Yisrael, you have a position in Yahweh's eyes. However, the fate of the state of Israel/House of Yahudah is different from the spiritual destiny of believers, whether they are from the House of Yahudah or not.

So who is a Jew actually depends on your point of view, the view of the state of Israel, the view of descendants of the people of Yahudah, or Yahweh's view. The views may differ but in the end you know whose view really, really matters. Call upon Him and do as He says and you will be viewed correctly and in His focus.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Matthew  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, November 26, 2008 10:14:07 AM(UTC)
Matthew
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Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
edStueart wrote:
Must... resist... temptation... to... use... Shecky Greene... or Lenny Bruce... nightclub... joke... here...

Had to do a Google search to figure out who these guys are! Still can't figure out how to relate the comment to mine, I see they often discussed religion in the comedy acts, especially about Jews and Catholics. I guess my statement should actually be a joke, much like Bushisms, lol!
Offline sirgodfrey  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, November 26, 2008 10:19:34 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

thanks for the responses guys. very informative bitnet. in the question that I posed (Where are the Jews!?), I was referring to the physical descendants of Abraham. I am well aware that whoever genuinely repents of sin and places their trust in the Messiah Yahushua become part of the family, but what about the Scripture that I posed in the opening post? All of Israel being saved... after the fulness of the gentiles? Again, I thank you for your posts, this is good stuff. Continue to seek the face of Yah brothers, I'm praying for everyone.
Offline edStueart  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:37:38 AM(UTC)
edStueart
Joined: 10/29/2008(UTC)
Posts: 370
Location: Philadelphia

Matthew wrote:
Had to do a Google search to figure out who these guys are!



PM sent.

(Oy! These kids, they know nothing of the old ways...)
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline bitnet  
#8 Posted : Friday, November 28, 2008 4:26:25 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shabbat Shalom,

Easy on the kids, ed... next they'll be wanting to know who's Mel Brooks... Sirgodgrey, I see where you are going with the "all of Israel shall be saved" but I'm not so sure that that's how it is actually written. For sure not all of Abraham's descendants will be saved... more than half of them are on the other side rounding a stone in the desert and forcing their god down other people throats... and then there were those of Yisrael who rebelled and forced Yahweh to remove them from His sight more than 2,500 years ago... Your question may be structured better if you asked, "Who among Abraham's descendants today shall inherit the Promise?" because these are the ones who may help you on your journey to the Creator, Abba Yahweh. You'll find the strangest answers and meet people from all walks of life from anywhere in the globe who share the same quest and, surprisingly, you may get the best directions from someone who's not a direct descendant of Abraham but a follower of Masehyah Yahushua, from whom the promises flow.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline shalom82  
#9 Posted : Friday, November 28, 2008 8:25:25 AM(UTC)
shalom82
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Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
I don't believe in the Khazar theory and I think it is a hateful distraction. There was a kingdom of Khazaria and it is true that the royalty and nobility did convert to Judaism, but it is not a given that the masses followed suit. Additionally Khazaria had large populations of Yahudim from Byzantium, Persia, Arabia, the Crimea and the Caucasus. We don't know how much these populations mixed. But one thing is known. No matter where the Yahudim have gone...whether it be Poland or the Southern tip of Africa...they have intermarried with the indiginous populations that they have lived among. The catch is that Jewish men marry goy women. Men are not to be admitted into the community through marriage. There probably are Jews in the world that aren't of the seed of Abraham or rather the seed of Jacob, but it is not by any means a condemnation of the people as a whole. Yes, there are white Jews, black Jews, Arabic Jews, Indian Jews, South American Jews, and Chinese Jews. They are all Jews. It would stand to reason that wherever Jews have been found for a long enought time...they will look like the people that surrond them. That doesn't cheapen them or in any way mitigate their claim to be the stock of Jacob. For one thing it has been found that the cohan sub group within Judaism and it's genetic markers are found it populations as diverse as Ashkenazai Jews originally from Eastern Europe and the Lemba tribe in Southern Africa...One group being white as alabaster and the other being as black as onyx, they couldn't look more different, but they both according to the genetic evidence come from the tribe of Lewi. Another thing we must realize from history is that the Yahudim travelled, EXTENSIVELY. They were among the great traders and merchants of the ancient world. I don't mean to be offensive sirgodfrey, but why do we celebrate when we hear of some great discovery like that the Pathans might be Jews or about the Lemba but feel it necessary to discredit white european Jewry? Additionally, what does this mean about YHWH's promises and the scripture? When we look at Ps. 102 was that not about the Yahudim?
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#10 Posted : Friday, November 28, 2008 2:14:11 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

Great guys, thank you for your posts. I am learning more.

Quote:
Your question may be structured better if you asked, "Who among Abraham's descendants today shall inherit the Promise?" because these are the ones who may help you on your journey to the Creator, Abba Yahweh. You'll find the strangest answers and meet people from all walks of life from anywhere in the globe who share the same quest and, surprisingly, you may get the best directions from someone who's not a direct descendant of Abraham but a follower of Masehyah Yahushua, from whom the promises flow.


I am well aware of the fact that the ones that shall inherit the promise are invaluable in learning from and aquiring more knowledge, understanding and faith towards Yah. The object of the post was to get responses on what people thought as far as this controversial topic. If it is (the verse in scripture) not written like that, please inform me of how it is actually written. and... WHO IS MEL BROOKS?! lol.

Shalom82, i must clear this up.

Quote:
I don't mean to be offensive sirgodfrey, but why do we celebrate when we hear of some great discovery like that the Pathans might be Jews or about the Lemba but feel it necessary to discredit white european Jewry?


The post was asking a rather simple question. I was not trying to make this a "race" thing at all. Why must one assume that we are celebrating Lemba Jewry and discrediting white european Jewry? The post stated that "from what I understand so far"... this implies that I can be completely wrong in what I have come to discover through reading. Further, I stated that it was just an interesting topic b/c the masses believe something that may be somewhat wrong, or utterly incorrect altogether. Again, there is no easy answer, and your post was phenomenal in terms of realizing that Jewry transcends "race" at this point because of mingling. Let us keep the focus of the post however... which was all of "Israel" being saved. Of course all of what people call "spiritual Israel" will be saved, but the context of the scripture implies that descendancy of Abraham is a factor in this. And if so, this is very interesting indeed. Much wisdom and knowledge in your post, and I greatly appreciate it.

Agape to you all in the name of Yahushua the Messiyah.
Offline bitnet  
#11 Posted : Friday, November 28, 2008 10:29:08 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shabbat Shalom,

shalom82, nice to see that you are still active here and not too busy tending to your farm. I sometimes wish I could go live there with you for a while and get to learn how to live off the land. I visit the eliyah.com site and I found out that he also lives on a farm. Robski just pointed me to his family photo and he looks like a Viking with his redbeard and his family reminds me of the Puritans and Amish. Yahweh bless them for their sharing! Indeed, Yahweh is no respecter of persons, and anyone can be of His Family, which is why He admonished the rich man for turning away those in need and encouraged those who simply gave a cup of water... you just never know who are His Family. With someone like me who has a rather convoluted lineage with ancestry from Europe and Asia, it really does not matter who my ancestors were. Race is a non-issue for me as in my country I am listed under "Others".

Wiki has some rather interesting contributions related to Jewry and for those who want to spend time on this just read all the links there. Perhaps some history may add to your understanding and perspectives but beware of taking too much too literally because too many people have their own agendas. I mean, even the Iranian president can say that the Holocaust is a figment of the Western imagination barely 70 years after the event... what more with events going back hundreds and thousands of years over several continents. There are also Muslims in India who still want their Mughal emperors in charge of the whole country, claiming that they are the "rightful" rulers of the land and conveniently ignoring the millenia before the Muslims invaded the sub-continent... hence the violence in Mumbai today. So at the end of the day, it may be wise to always remember that we are here for a reason, and selfish as it may seem, focus on that purpose first without getting too involved in matters that are of little profit.

As far as descendancy of Abraham is concerned, yes it matters a lot in the right context. To get the promises offered to him by Yahweh we are to be of his seed. Salvation shall also come through his seed. So we need to become part of his family, and not just physically but spiritually. Masehyah Yahushua is of Abraham and by being His people we are entitled to the promises made to Abraham. Simple shortcut here that cuts across the race factor as anyone can be a follower of Masehyah Yahushua. Anyway, all the promises made to Abraham came from Masehyah Yahushua so who knows better than the Giver... Keep up the learning and sharing and we'll meet one day in the not-too-distant future.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline shalom82  
#12 Posted : Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:41:17 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Amane Bitnet....oh and btw...I am always around. I check in at least a couple times a day. Hopefully, I will pick up my posting again soon....the horror...the horror...haha...anyway...

And Sirgodfrey, I apologize if I was snarky before. I suppose I misunderstood your intentions or was too hasty. I have been testy as of late because of a very very disturbing dream. I would rather not go into it now, but just so you don't think I am insane, Robski and I have discussed this matter. Anyway, I am sorry Achi, please forgive me if my gruffness was offensive.

Shalom
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#13 Posted : Monday, December 1, 2008 4:20:17 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

shalom82... dude, it is no problem at all. no need to apologize, but i accept it nonetheless brother. the topic of the post is controversial indeed, but i think that it is so interesting. hopefully that matter that has made you on edge will be resolved very soon if not already. i know Yah will provide consolation by His Spirit. continue to seek Him brother. thank you bitnet for your posts. you guys are amazing. it is a shame that we can't really get together in the flesh, how crazy would that be. sometimes i feel nuts because people around me just aren't seeing what im seeing. i was all about some Jesus Christ, but have been studying for some time now and digging deeper and deeper and i just cant agree with certain things. anyways, im rambling. pray for me brothers. i need it.
Offline lassie1865  
#14 Posted : Thursday, December 4, 2008 5:29:17 PM(UTC)
lassie1865
Joined: 2/18/2008(UTC)
Posts: 309
Woman
Location: Colorado

Dear Friends,

I was just thinking - after all this time and dispersion, what if each and every one of us on this planet is actually, genetically, related to the Hebrews? Considering all the anti-Semitism in the world, that would be really ironic. I keep thinking of my mother's family; they were very anti-Semitic, but I wouldn't be surprised if the family is actually Hebrew, and perhaps they changed their identity when living in Germany long before they immigrated to the US. I would love to have my DNA tested . . .

Blessings,
Lassie
Offline kp  
#15 Posted : Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:37:55 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Precisely what I was thinking, Lassie. We can postulate all we want about who is "Jewish" or a "child of Israel." But the only real definition---Yahweh's definition---is written at some level in the DNA. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that there are multiplied millions of souls who are "Israelites" without knowing about it.

kp
Offline bitnet  
#16 Posted : Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:50:08 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

This crossed my mind years ago... with an ancestry that goes back to Europe and China and who knows where else, I wondered who my ancient forefathers were. I read that Abraham's descendants shall be as the numerous as the grains of sand on the shores of the sea (uncountable) so it certainly cannot just be the Jews. I think the descendants of Ya'acob are uncountable because we really do not know who they are. Does the DNA matter? Right now it matters not and anyone can be Hebrew like Abraham and belong to Yahushua. I suppose He'll say to us sometime later with a wry smile, "A-hah! I told you that you would be uncountable and you did not believe me! Well, here you are!"
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#17 Posted : Friday, December 5, 2008 8:18:19 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

Thank you all for your posts. There is def truth and wisdom found in much of it. I would like to also say that no one has really addressed the scripture that was presented at the thread's beginning. If my understanding of the scripture needs to be reproved, please, i am looking for that so that I will know. Thank you again, much love in the MessiYah.
Offline kp  
#18 Posted : Friday, December 5, 2008 12:28:10 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

I presume you're asking about the provocative word pas (all) in Romans 11:26---"And so all Israel will be saved." I ran across an interesting Spurgeon quote in the Strong's definition of pas.

Quote:
“The whole world has gone after him” Did all the world go after Christ? “then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.” Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? “Ye are of God, little children”, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one”. Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words “world” and “all” are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the “all” means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile …—C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption.


So although pas means "all," it is often used in a hyperbolic sense, as when we say "Everybody's doing it," we don't necessarily mean every human soul on the face of the earth, but only "lots of folks." Scripture is quite clear that as a nation, Israel will repent and become the people Yahweh intended for them to be during the Millennial Kingdom. But Zechariah also points out that two thirds of them will die before this ever happens. Considering the world's animosity of the world toward Israel (especially what we can foresee after the rapture of the ekklesia) it'll be a miracle if any of them "will be saved" in any way shape or form. But Yahweh delights in doing the impossible.

kp
Offline sirgodfrey  
#19 Posted : Saturday, December 6, 2008 10:20:13 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

thank you brother. i believe this brings some clarity to the issue at hand.
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