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Offline edStueart  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, November 11, 2008 3:51:49 PM(UTC)
edStueart
Joined: 10/29/2008(UTC)
Posts: 370
Location: Philadelphia

As 2008 draws to an end, I'd like to lead my friends and family away from the pagan (retail) orgy that occurs on December 25th, but I am wary of the domestic price I will pay for 'taking it away from them'.

Surly I am not the only follower of Yeshua to have encountered this dilemma!

Would that we had a one page document that explained the origins "Christmas" and how it is a slap to the face of YHWH.

Five (six?) paragraphs on the front, the back of the document would be the biography (mostly URL's?)

Format it on a US Letter sized PDF (The USA is the greatest offender, but it would still fit on A4 paper.)

Can we make this a group project?

I will start it off by suggesting the following as the title:

"Taking the 'Christ' out of 'Christmas'"


"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline Walt  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:36:42 AM(UTC)
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This is a touchy subject matter as christ(less)mas is a sacred cow for sooooo many that they can't even think of the concept of it being of holiday not of "God".

They look for reason to take offense over their sacred day, like if one say "happy holidays".

It is very difficult to get a church person in bondage to traditionalized christianity to even begin to understand the truth of the day, and why a follower of Messiah would keep it and honor it. They think it heresy for a "christian" to not keep christ(less)mas.

I think the title Taking the 'Christ' out of 'Christmas' would cause many to reject it before even looking at it as that is what they see the nonbelievers and ACLU doing.

Maybe a better title would be Why The Messiah isn't in christmas.
It might be a doorway to more truth than just the paganess of christ(less)mas.
Introduce them to The Feasts of Yahweh and a subtle introduction to the Scriptural names of our Elohim.
Offline Matthew  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:40:39 AM(UTC)
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Using Yada's works we can say that "Merry Christmas" means "to have a happy celebration of the death of the drugged one," or something like that. Any other takes?

Oh I hate Christmas, my wife's mother's side are Catholic and I dread every Christmas Eve party, I try worm my way out and we always have a big argument beforehand. My parents are cool with me not celebrating it, they don't fully understand but they accept it. My mother-in-law's side on the other hand, force me to attend. In the past I have retreated to the furthest corner of the house and sulked the night away. I have tried make stupid but clever comments (you know what I mean, sounding stupid but actually trying to expose the stupidness of the festival) like "why do people bring in a tree and decorate it in silver and gold, what does it symbolise, from my understanding it comes from ancient pagans from..." I'm sad to say I coat my words in Political Correctness to not try be heavily offending, I try get them to laugh at it rather than get angry at me, hopefully they'll wake up to the stupidness of the festival. They already all know I eat "kosher" and they prepare a pasta for me when they eat an unclean sea-food feast. They love me dearly and I love them too, I tread carefully but with each year I tread a little harder.

Edit:

Walt wrote:
Maybe a better title would be Why The Messiah isn't in christmas.

I Agree!
Offline edStueart  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:55:30 AM(UTC)
edStueart
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Walt wrote:
I think the title Taking the 'Christ' out of 'Christmas' would cause many to reject it before even looking at it


Agreed. I thought myself ever so clever by reversing the polarity on a cliche seen on 'Christian' magazine article titles, but alas, Walt is right.

(We could still keep Taking the 'Christ' out of 'Christmas' as the title of this thread, though!)

Walt wrote:
Maybe a better title would be Why The Messiah isn't in christmas.


This is a much more palatable title.

Walt wrote:
Introduce them to The Feasts of Yahweh and a subtle introduction to the Scriptural names of our Elohim.


I think that the introduction to the Feasts would be in the second to the last paragraph.

Perhaps a link to the Scriptural names of our Elohim would be a good entry (URL?) in the bibliography.

Here is what we have so far:






Why The Messiah isn't in christmas


Paragraph 01

Paragraph 02

Paragraph 03

Paragraph 04: Introduces the Feasts of Yahweh

Paragraph 05: Conclusion

Bibligraphy:

01: Link to Scriptural names of our Elohim.
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline kp  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:11:58 AM(UTC)
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I for one don't intend to surrender the day to Satan. I will continue to celebrate December 25 as a very special day of rejoicing, thanksgiving, and recognition of what my Savior Yahshua has done for me. The fact that there are 365 such days (sometimes 366) in any given year doesn't make it any less wonderful for me. This too is the day that Yahweh has made: I will rejoice and be glad in it. I don't really give a flying fig if some moldy Babylonian demigod claimed the day as his own personal property. He can't have it. All my days belong to Yahweh, and He has bequeathed them to us His children for our enjoyment and His honor. So I will continue to celebrate this, and every second Tuesday, and Blackbeard's wedding anniversary, and every time a day of the week has a "d" in it---not because of what they are mistaken for, but because of Whom they belong to.

kp
Offline edStueart  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:50:23 AM(UTC)
edStueart
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kp wrote:
Blackbeard's wedding anniversary


Ah, yes, June 14th* is always a big celebration at our house...

;-)


kp wrote:
and every time a day of the week has a "d" in it---not because of what they are mistaken for, but because of Whom they belong to.



Well said, sir! I could not agree more.


(But I would still like a one page document that gently explains why I object to putting up lights and vacuuming evergreen needles at this time of year.)


Ed
ed@theTruthOfIslam.com

*I looked up "Blackbeard's wedding anniversary" (it is not really June 14th) and it turns out that he was just as bad as Muhammad (PBUH ! ) when it came to the treatment of his wives. Ick!
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline kp  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, November 12, 2008 7:13:27 AM(UTC)
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Yeah, ed. I think Blackbeard had, like, fourteen wives (so his "anniversary" came up quite freqently, which was my point). Good point, next to Muhammad, BB was a virginal wallflower.

(By the way, I'm not against the idea of explaining the problem with "Christmas." I just don't think it can be done lovingly but convincingly in a one-page report---this from the guy who can't seem to write a book under 600 pages :-)

kp
Offline edStueart  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:02:34 AM(UTC)
edStueart
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kp wrote:
(By the way, I'm not against the idea of explaining the problem with "Christmas." I just don't think it can be done lovingly but convincingly in a one-page report---this from the guy who can't seem to write a book under 600 pages :-)


Ok, a one page essay and 599 pages of "end notes".
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline kp  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:47:04 AM(UTC)
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Funny :-)

kp
Offline Theophilus  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:01:41 AM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
I for one don't intend to surrender the day to Satan. I will continue to celebrate December 25 as a very special day of rejoicing, thanksgiving, and recognition of what my Savior Yahshua has done for me. The fact that there are 365 such days (sometimes 366) in any given year doesn't make it any less wonderful for me. This too is the day that Yahweh has made: I will rejoice and be glad in it. I don't really give a flying fig if some moldy Babylonian demigod claimed the day as his own personal property. He can't have it. All my days belong to Yahweh, and He has bequeathed them to us His children for our enjoyment and His honor. So I will continue to celebrate this, and every second Tuesday, and Blackbeard's wedding anniversary, and every time a day of the week has a "d" in it---not because of what they are mistaken for, but because of Whom they belong to.

kp


Ken, speaking of December 25th, I noted in the Star of Bethlehem thread in the Science folder that there appears to be a strong case not for Messiah's "birth" occurring on that date, but rather in 2 BCE was the night the “star” appeared to stand still over Bethlehem as viewed from Jerusalem and that would have been the night the magi from the East brought gifts to honor Messiah. So apparently someone else thought that date was worthy to revere Messiah, bearing gifts and enduring long travels as well.
Offline Mike  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:23:30 AM(UTC)
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Offline Walt  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:58:00 PM(UTC)
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Theophilus wrote:
Ken, speaking of December 25th, I noted in the Star of Bethlehem thread in the Science folder that there appears to be a strong case not for Messiah's "birth" occurring on that date, but rather in 2 BCE was the night the “star” appeared to stand still over Bethlehem as viewed from Jerusalem and that would have been the night the magi from the East brought gifts to honor Messiah. So apparently someone else thought that date was worthy to revere Messiah, bearing gifts and enduring long travels as well.


Except the Magi didn't visit Messiah in Bethleham at His birth, but in Nazareth at His house.
Offline Walt  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:00:37 PM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
I for one don't intend to surrender the day to Satan. I will continue to celebrate December 25 as a very special day of rejoicing, thanksgiving, and recognition of what my Savior Yahshua has done for me. The fact that there are 365 such days (sometimes 366) in any given year doesn't make it any less wonderful for me. This too is the day that Yahweh has made: I will rejoice and be glad in it. I don't really give a flying fig if some moldy Babylonian demigod claimed the day as his own personal property. He can't have it. All my days belong to Yahweh, and He has bequeathed them to us His children for our enjoyment and His honor. So I will continue to celebrate this, and every second Tuesday, and Blackbeard's wedding anniversary, and every time a day of the week has a "d" in it---not because of what they are mistaken for, but because of Whom they belong to.

kp


Yes, but you don't esteem christ(less)mas as a day above other days, and practice pagan traditions to "honor" Messiah.
Offline edStueart  
#14 Posted : Thursday, November 13, 2008 3:33:49 AM(UTC)
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Great article, my Brother!

It comes out as a 5 page (front and back) document, so is 5 times longer than I had originally envisioned, but 1/60th as long as KP would have written. ;-)
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline Theophilus  
#15 Posted : Thursday, November 13, 2008 3:57:05 AM(UTC)
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Walt wrote:
Except the Magi didn't visit Messiah in Bethleham at His birth, but in Nazareth at His house.


That's an interesting theory regarding Nazareth Walt, but I'm curious how you arrived at your conclusion?

I agree that while "born" in a manger, the Magi found him in a house. That said it would be odd indeed for Messiah's earthly family to flee Herod's murderers to Egypt to the far south-west from Nazareth in the far north of Israel traveling the length of Herod's realm rather than escaping to the much closer Lebanon or Syria. From Bethlehem a just a few miles south of Jerusalem.

As for the case of Magi in Bethlehem consider the following from the ISR Scriptures:

Quote:
Mattithyahu (Matthew) 2:1 And Yahshua having been born in Beyth Lehem of Yehudah in the days of Herodes the sovereign, see, Magi from the East came to Yerushalayim, 2saying, “Where is He who has been born Sovereign of the Yehudim? For we saw His star in the East and have come to do reverence to Him.” 3And Herodes the sovereign, having heard, was troubled, and all Yerushalayim with him. 4And having gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he asked them where the Messiah was to be born. 5And they said to him, “In Beyth Lehem of Yehudah, for thus it has been written by the prophet, 6‘But you, Beyth Lehem, in the land of Yehudah, you are by no means least among the rulers of Yehudah, for out of you shall come a Ruler who shall shepherd My people Yisra’el.’ ”b 7Then Herodes, having called the Magi secretly, learned exactly from them what time the star appeared. 8And having sent them to Beyth Lehem, he said, “Go and search diligently for the Child, and when you have found Him, bring back word to me, so that I too might go and do reverence to Him.” 9And having heard the sovereign, they went. And see, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, until it came and stood over where the Child was. 10And seeing the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy. 11And coming into the house, they saw the Child with Miryam His mother, and fell down and did reverence to Him, and opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. 12And having been warned in a dream that they should not return to Herodes, they departed for their own country by another way. 13And when they had left, see, a messenger of Yahweh appeared to Yoseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the Child and His mother, and flee to Mitsrayim, and remain there until I bring you word, for Herodes is about to seek the Child to destroy Him.” 14And rising up, he took the Child and His mother by night and departed for Mitsrayim, 15and remained there until the death of Herodes, to fill what was spoken by through the prophet, saying, “Out of Mitsrayim I have called My Son.”c 16Then Herodes, having seen that he was fooled by the Magi, was greatly enraged, and he sent forth and slew all the male children in Beyth Lehem and in all its borders, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had exactly learnt from the Magi.

b Mik. 5:2. c Shem. 4:22-23, Hosh. 11:1, Rev. 21:7.


So we have the Magi traveling from the East to Jerusalem speaking with Herod then leaving to go to wear the Star stood over were the house where the child was. I count several references to a Beyth Lehem of Yehudah and none to Nazereth. We see Herod’s murderers going there and Herod dying not long after the escape to Egypt. We know what that night sky looked like on the eve of December 25th in Jerusalem and know that by far the brightest object in that nights sky appeared to stand over Bethlehem which was an easy walk to the South from Jerusalem.

So what do you have to support your Nazareth theory or to dispute what I’ve sited? If there is a case I’d be most interested to know the details? If not I think the case for the Magi at Bethlehem of Judah on December 24th-25th 2BCE it’s worth consideration.
Offline Walt  
#16 Posted : Thursday, November 13, 2008 5:03:32 AM(UTC)
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Theophilus wrote:
That's an interesting theory regarding Nazareth Walt, but I'm curious how you arrived at your conclusion?

I agree that while "born" in a manger, the Magi found him in a house. That said it would be odd indeed for Messiah's earthly family to flee Herod's murderers to Egypt to the far south-west from Nazareth in the far north of Israel traveling the length of Herod's realm rather than escaping to the much closer Lebanon or Syria. From Bethlehem a just a few miles south of Jerusalem.

As for the case of Magi in Bethlehem consider the following from the ISR Scriptures:



So we have the Magi traveling from the East to Jerusalem speaking with Herod then leaving to go to wear the Star stood over were the house where the child was. I count several references to a Beyth Lehem of Yehudah and none to Nazereth. We see Herod’s murderers going there and Herod dying not long after the escape to Egypt. We know what that night sky looked like on the eve of December 25th in Jerusalem and know that by far the brightest object in that nights sky appeared to stand over Bethlehem which was an easy walk to the South from Jerusalem.

So what do you have to support your Nazareth theory or to dispute what I’ve sited? If there is a case I’d be most interested to know the details? If not I think the case for the Magi at Bethlehem of Judah on December 24th-25th 2BCE it’s worth consideration.


Now in Matthew, it says they left the after rising, to goto Egypt following the magi visit right?

What you are leaving out of the equation is Luke's recording of the birth:

The shepherds went back, glorifying and praising God for all that they had heard and seen, just as had been told them. And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Yahushua, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb. And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "EVERY firstborn MALE THAT OPENS THE WOMB SHALL BE CALLED HOLY TO YAHWEH"), and to offer a sacrifice according to what was said in the Law of the Lord, "A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES OR TWO YOUNG PIGEONS."

(Luke 2:20-24)


When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.

(Luke 2:39)



After the birth, they went to Jerusalem (just a short distance from Bethleham), and from there they went back to Galilee to their house.
Since the Magi visited the young child in a house, and immediately after Messiah's family left for Egypt - the Magi visit couldn't have been in Bethleham
Offline Theophilus  
#17 Posted : Thursday, November 13, 2008 5:25:49 AM(UTC)
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Swalchy wrote:
Actually, I think that the Magi didn't arrive until about 1-2 years later. The fact that Scripture literally says that Herod, "diligently inquired and found out accurately, investigated and ascertained the details" from the Magi the " exact and precise time" when they first saw the star in the East, and Herod then proceeded to kill all children 2 years and under, makes me think that Yahushua may have been about 1 year old. Also, the usage of the Greek παιδον "young child" rather than the Greek βρεφος "baby" leads me to believe that Yahushua was older than a couple of months.

This is different to when the Shepherds went to see Yahushua. Lucus uses the definite βρεφος for "baby" in his account of their visit (Lucus 2:12, 16).

Not conclusive, obviously, just another point of view.

But I certianly think the case for them coming to see Yahushua in Bethlehem (Bayith-Lechem) has a lot more evidence for it than them going to Nazareth.


I can see a case for an somewhat older Yahshua based on the word usage as you suggest and when the star "appeared". I'm unclear as to just when the cut off point between the words would've been as the language was used by the author in that time but agree that it's a possibility.

Regarding the "star's" appearance, I recall the presentation did cover what would've been quite a show in the sky going back to at least the spring of 2BCE which likely would've been noted by Hebrew Magi of Daniel's school in Babylon and have culminated with the brightest "star" in memory standing still over Bayith-Lechem. If the Magi were covering their bases they may have back dated another 9 months from the beginning of these signs not being sure if the initial signs indicated a birth or a conception. I also noticed that the Magi didn't return to Jerusalem to tell Herod which was the case so I can see Herod being thorough by assuming the more conservative assumption and targeting all two year old boys in that region as threats to his reign.

What seems in doubt is just when Yahshua was born although we’ve pretty well ruled out Winter. We have astronomical data to identify the December 24-25th 2 BCE arrival of the Magi in Bayith-Lechem, Herod's death shortly after and even the date of the crucifixion in 33 CE. I personally think Tabernacles is an appropriate day to celebrate Yahshua's "birth" / advent, but notice Matt thought it was significant to tell us of the Magi's visit and I choose not ignore the evidence as to when this event occurred.
Offline Theophilus  
#18 Posted : Thursday, November 13, 2008 6:44:01 AM(UTC)
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Walt Wrote:
Quote:
After the birth, they went to Jerusalem (just a short distance from Bethleham), and from there they went back to Galilee to their house.
Since the Magi visited the young child in a house, and immediately after Messiah's family left for Egypt - the Magi visit couldn't have been in Bethleham.


Walt, I agree with you that in the days after Yahshua's birth his earthly family returned with him to their home in Galilee as you noted Luke tells us. I also accept that this "birth" did not occur in the Winter to include late December.

I don't agree that we can say with any certainty therefore that it must have been the family house in the Galilee that the Magi visited. Luke's account tells us nothing about the Magi, the star, the visit with Herod, Herod's murders in Bethlehem or Yahshua's flight to Egypt to await Herod's death. Luke’s account next picks up 12 years later back in Jerusalem. Apparently the Jews in Galilee frequently traveled to the Jerusalem area which includes Bethlehem. I'll take both Matt's and Luke's accounts as accurate and that after soon after Herod's 1BCE death, the family return home to Nazareth.

What we do know from Matt's account is that Magi from the East found young Yahshua in a house not a manger and above this house was a star of note that stood still in the sky as viewed from Jerusalem. All of the indications in Matt's account as well as astronomy say the house the Magi found Yahshua in was in Bethlehem and that it was from there that the family fled to Egypt.

Consider this, if the Magi went to Nazareth in the north and Herod sent his death squad to Bethlehem to the south, why did Yahweh warn the family to flee to distant Egypt until Herod's death?

I agree that we don't know just how old Yahshua was December 24-25th 2 BCE, however it is seems very likely to me pending some evidence to the contrary that this is when and where the Magi revered Messiah bearing gifts. Certainly Matt thought this was worthy of mention. So do you have any further evidence to suggest Nazareth?
Offline edStueart  
#19 Posted : Thursday, November 13, 2008 9:16:32 AM(UTC)
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Theophilus wrote:
I'll take both Matt's and Luke's accounts as accurate and that after soon after Herod's 1BCE death, the family return home to Nazareth.


Having just gotten back from Israel and visiting these sites, I'd like to step out on to a limb:

The Maji didn't only 'see a star in the East'. I think they had access to Hebrew scriptures and were able to do some KP/Yada math and calculate when Messiah would arrive. The star was just the confirmation that they were on the right track.

Their arrival in Jerusalem would have been from the north, having passed through modern Lebanon, NOT having crossed the desert in a straight line. The trade/travel routes demand an entry from the north. I think they checked in at the capital city as a matter of course and to find out where Bethlehem was. They would have known that Bethlehem was the prophesied town, but maybe not known where it was.

I think the Maji showed their PowerPoint slides to Herod, explaining the prophecies and why they were there, realized what evil was going to happen, then left town.

It is only about an hour and a half walk from Jerusalem to Bethlehem...

(Ed takes one more step out on the limb)

...a little over five miles. If I can, on a clear night, see someone smoking a cigarette up to eleven miles away, the three wise guys would certainly be able to see a chorus of angels at half that distance.

I think that they got into Bethlehem (it is still a really small town), knocked on a few doors and asked: "Did anyone have a baby tonight?"

They presented the gifts (you know this part of the story).

Yeshua is taken to the temple (on the southwest corner of Jerusalem).

Seven days later, Yeshua is taken to the temple (on the southwest corner of Jerusalem).

Then the angel tell Joseph to get out of the country, NOW!

(They left the next morning. I know I would if an angel told me to do something!)

The family went off to Egypt, then returned to Nazareth after Herod was dead.

If the Maji visited them in Nazareth, the family would not have passed through Jerusalem on their way to Egypt. The would have evac'd to the north, They would not have tried to sneak through Jerusalem and 2/3rds of the country. Remember, even the Maji avoided Jerusalem on their way home! (Wise men, indeed.) This presupposes that the Maji would have even been able to even find 'a boy born a year or two ago, in a town on the other side of Jerusalem..' (Contrast this with, "Did anyone have a baby tonight?")

At Nazareth Village, they have a building that represents a first century builder's home. The docent's point out that the 'manger' was not a feed trough, but a room on the front of the house that the animals could be sheltered in during the winter. If you have 'family in town' (because of the census), and one of them was about to have a baby, you would give them the small room at the front of the house, so they could have some privacy. The rest of the relatives, with their older kids, would be in the main part of the house, and the animals would be pushed outside.

In conclusion (to this really long posting): I am trying to take a really 'nuts and bolts' approach to the accounts of our Savior's arrival. The Maji knew from interpreting scripture exactly when and more or less where He would arrive. The star they had been following since leaving Iraq was just confirmation. They left Herod's castle then went straight to Bethlehem. They warned the family, who departed to the south west, to Egypt, then crossed the Jordan and went back home. After things quieted down (especially Herod, he got real quiet!), the family returned to Nazareth.

This write up is worth exactly what you, dear reader, just paid for it: NOTHING, but I feel it fits in with Matthew, Luke, geography and archeology.

(Anybody wanna see my pictures from Nazareth Village?)

Edited by user Tuesday, November 18, 2008 2:19:39 AM(UTC)  | Reason: to fix some time line events (Thanks, Walt!)

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline In His Name  
#20 Posted : Friday, November 14, 2008 8:30:08 PM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
I for one don't intend to surrender the day to Satan. I will continue to celebrate December 25 as a very special day of rejoicing, thanksgiving, and recognition of what my Savior Yahshua has done for me. The fact that there are 365 such days (sometimes 366) in any given year doesn't make it any less wonderful for me. This too is the day that Yahweh has made: I will rejoice and be glad in it. I don't really give a flying fig if some moldy Babylonian demigod claimed the day as his own personal property. He can't have it. All my days belong to Yahweh, and He has bequeathed them to us His children for our enjoyment and His honor. So I will continue to celebrate this, and every second Tuesday, and Blackbeard's wedding anniversary, and every time a day of the week has a "d" in it---not because of what they are mistaken for, but because of Whom they belong to.

kp

Bravo KP! I love the give no ground spirit. May I ask how you celebrate the season. My interest being: how to celebrate without bringing in the pagan elements against which Yahweh has warned. I am attempting to move my family to a more respectful attitude, but am getting a lot of push back about our traditions ( the tree decorated with silver and gold stuff) The document this string is about could be a bridge that many of us could use to transition ourselves and families to new traditions that truly celebrate our Savior.
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline kp  
#21 Posted : Saturday, November 15, 2008 5:39:27 AM(UTC)
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How do I celebrate the season? Mostly I ignore it. These days I look at "Christmas" the same way as I do presidential elections: I do my best to sidestep the hype, and breathe a heavy sigh of relief when it's all over. If only "Christmas" came but once every four years! The economy has pretty much solved the problem of my grown children making the trek to Central Virginia and being shocked at how little we do to acknowledge the season---they simply can't afford to come, nor can my wife and I afford to visit them any more.

Please understand that with eleven children, Christmas used to be a BIG DEAL for us when our kids were little, before I started paying closer attention to God's Word. A ten-foot tree, 10,000 calories worth of holiday baking, and a humongous pile of presents engulfing the grand piano in the living room were annual phenomena that my kids still remember with fondness and delight. Decades went by before it even occurred to me to question the whole thing. Not even Alfred Edersheim (in his classic tome The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah) figured out that He wasn't born in late December. And he was orders of magnitude smarter than me. I didn't really figure this out until I was pushing sixty. My wife of forty years, bless her heart, is doing her best to keep up with my theological epiphanies. Giving up the Christmas tree was hard for her. She still decorates the place for the season, but no more so than any other time of year---it's more weather related than anything else. (After spending our first half-century in California, we really enjoy living where the seasons change.) We still buy presents, but only for the grandkids, and it's never much.

But like I said, the excitement and joy that used to be concentrated (for whatever reason) around an erroneous but enjoyable holiday is now, for me anyway, spread out over the entire year. Every day immersed in God's Word brings me new wonder at the goodness of Yahweh, and added peace in the face of an apostate world that's coming apart at the seams. I only wish I could pass that along to my kids.

kp
Offline Walt  
#22 Posted : Saturday, November 15, 2008 6:14:36 AM(UTC)
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edStueart wrote:
Having just gotten back from Israel and visiting these sites, I'd like to step out on to a limb:

The Maji didn't only 'see a star in the East'. I think they had access to Hebrew scriptures and were able to do some KP/Yada math and calculate when Messiah would arrive. The star was just the confirmation that they were on the right track.

Their arrival in Jerusalem would have been from the north, having passed through modern Lebanon, NOT having crossed the desert in a straight line. The trade/travel routes demand an entry from the north. I think they checked in at the capital city as a matter of course and to find out where Bethlehem was. They would have known that Bethlehem was the prophesied town, but maybe not known where it was.

I think the Maji showed their PowerPoint slides to Herod, explaining the prophecies and why they were there, realized what evil was going to happen, then left town.

It is only about an hour and a half walk from Jerusalem to Bethlehem...

(Ed takes one more step out on the limb)

...a little over five miles. If I can, on a clear night, see someone smoking a cigarette up to eleven miles away, the three wise guys would certainly be able to see a chorus of angels at half that distance.

I think that they got into Bethlehem (it is still a really small town), knocked on a few doors and asked: "Did anyone have a baby tonight?"

They presented the gifts (you know this part of the story), then told them to get out of town, NOW!

The family went off to Egypt, as early as the next morning, then returned to Nazareth after Herod was dead.

If the Maji visited them in Nazareth, the family would not have passed through Jerusalem on their way to Egypt. The would have evac'd to the north, They would not have tried to sneak through Jerusalem and 2/3rds of the country. Remember, even the Maji avoided Jerusalem on their way home! (Wise men, indeed.) This presupposes that the Maji would have even been able to even find 'a boy born a year or two ago, in a town on the other side of Jerusalem..' (Contrast this with, "Did anyone have a baby tonight?")

At Nazareth Village, they have a building that represents a first century builder's home. The docent's point out that the 'manger' was not a feed trough, but a room on the front of the house that the animals could be sheltered in during the winter. If you have 'family in town' (because of the census), and one of them was about to have a baby, you would give them the small room at the front of the house, so they could have some privacy. The rest of the relatives, with their older kids, would be in the main part of the house, and the animals would be pushed outside.

In conclusion (to this really long posting): I am trying to take a really 'nuts and bolts' approach to the accounts of our Savior's arrival. The Maji knew from interpreting scripture exactly when and more or less where He would arrive. The star they had been following since leaving Iraq was just confirmation. They left Herod's castle then went straight to Bethlehem. They warned the family, who departed to the south west, to Egypt, then crossed the Jordan and went back home. After things quieted down (especially Herod, he got real quiet!), the family returned to Nazareth.

This write up is worth exactly what you, dear reader, just paid for it: NOTHING, but I feel it fits in with Matthew, Luke, geography and archeology.

(Anybody wanna see my pictures from Nazareth Village?)


Still doesn't fit in with the Luke details:

Says after 8 days they left Bethlehem for Jerusalem, then went home to Nazareth to their house.

So the magi had to have visited them in Nazereth.

There is no way to reconcile having the magi visit Messiah in Bethlehem with Scripture.
Offline Walt  
#23 Posted : Saturday, November 15, 2008 6:20:48 AM(UTC)
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Theophilus wrote:

Consider this, if the Magi went to Nazareth in the north and Herod sent his death squad to Bethlehem to the south, why did Yahweh warn the family to flee to distant Egypt until Herod's death?



He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by Yahweh through the prophet: "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON."

(Matthew 2:15)



Theophilus wrote:

. So do you have any further evidence to suggest Nazareth?


Scripture plainly stating that Messiah went from Bethlehem, to Jerusalem, to Nazereth isn't sufficient?
Offline Walt  
#24 Posted : Saturday, November 15, 2008 12:10:31 PM(UTC)
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edStueart wrote:

If the Maji visited them in Nazareth, the family would not have passed through Jerusalem on their way to Egypt. The would have evac'd to the north, They would not have tried to sneak through Jerusalem and 2/3rds of the country. Remember, even the Maji avoided Jerusalem on their way home! (Wise men, indeed.) This presupposes that the Maji would have even been able to even find 'a boy born a year or two ago, in a town on the other side of Jerusalem..' (Contrast this with, "Did anyone have a baby tonight?")


Scripture doesn't record that Messiah and parents passed through Jerusalem on the way to Egypt.

The Maji didn't have to go "looking" for the child Messiah:

After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was.
(Matthew 2:9)


Yahweh had the star lead them RIGHT to the house.

Also Scripture doesn't say that the Maji avoided Jerusalem:
And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.
(Matthew 2:12)


They were just told to not return to Herod, and they went home by a different way.
Offline edStueart  
#25 Posted : Saturday, November 15, 2008 12:45:44 PM(UTC)
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Walt wrote:
Scripture doesn't record that Messiah and parents passed through Jerusalem on the way to Egypt.
[snip]
Yahweh had the star lead them RIGHT to the house.


Not going to argue with that!

Walt wrote:

Also Scripture doesn't say that the Maji avoided Jerusalem:
And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.
(Matthew 2:12)


They were just told to not return to Herod, and they went home by a different way.


If the Maji were in Nazareth, going home the same way they came in is the best way to avoid Herod and his goons. (Back up north to Lebanon, east through Syria, then back to Persia)

If they were in Bethlehem, they would have to go home a different way to avoid the Bad Guys. (Cross the Jordan, then turn north to Syria...)

Either way could work. Not critical to my theology. Fun to chat about with my Brothers.
;-)
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline lassie1865  
#26 Posted : Saturday, November 15, 2008 7:05:00 PM(UTC)
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Dear Friends,

If (since) Messiah was born on the Feast of Tabernacles, wouldn't each family in Bethlehem have a sukkot out in their backyard? Perhaps the Messiah was actually born in one of them?

Lassie1865
Offline Theophilus  
#27 Posted : Saturday, November 15, 2008 8:43:40 PM(UTC)
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Hello Walt, I like Ed have also enjoyed this discussion. I'd like to explore a few points a little deeper.

Quote:
Theophilus wrote:

Consider this, if the Magi went to Nazareth in the north and Herod sent his death squad to Bethlehem to the south, why did Yahweh warn the family to flee to distant Egypt until Herod's death?

Walt wrote:
He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by Yahweh through the prophet: "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON."
(Matthew 2:15)


So under your Nazareth theory, the warning dream was exclusively to fulfill the prophecy Matthew 2:15 referenced. While I agree that fleeing to Egypt fulfills the prophecy, it clearly was NOT due to any immediate danger since Matt's account clearly records Herod's killing squad following the Magi south to the little village Bethlehem of Judah, NOT Nazareth in the far north of the country. Without a real need to urgently leave the Nazareth the 2:15 prophecy could be fulfilled if Yahshua resided in Egypt anytime before His earthly ministry began. Also the Magi in Matt's account clear tell Herod they're going to Bethlehem, were the star is standing over which they've observed since before their departure from Babylon, hence why Herod sent his killers there. The only logical explanation for an urgent flight to Egypt were if the danger were bound for there location, which we know from Matt's account was Bethlehem.

Ed's point on the geography and travel routes is also correct. From Nazareth it would make no logical sense whatever to get to Babylon via Jerusalem. From Bethlehem, Jerusalem is the obvious first stop on the return route.

Walt wrote:
Quote:
Scripture doesn't record that Messiah and parents passed through Jerusalem on the way to Egypt.

The Maji didn't have to go "looking" for the child Messiah:

After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was.
(Matthew 2:9)

Yahweh had the star lead them RIGHT to the house.


I agree with these points. The Scripture doesn't record a visit by Yahshuia's family to Jerusalem during their flight to Egypt. From nearby Bethlehem Jerusalem would be the wrong direction but the proximity would make a flight from there urgent unlike Nazareth.

Scripture doesn't describe the exact details of the Magi's house-call ID process and conversation, therefore we can't know with certainty precisely how this occurred. As I understand it, Bethlehem of Judea is a fairly small place today and certainly was smaller in 2 BCE. I suspect if Yahshua were at a house not in the very center of that town but along either side of the settlement especially if the houses were spaced apart an observant approaching visitor certainly could be guided by a star resting in the sky above a point or even a house on the ground below and follow that bearing to the front door.

We know with that historically a wandering "Star" associated with kingship actually did stand still in the night's sky of December 24th-25th 2BCE over Bethlehem of Judea NOT Nazareth as seen from Jerusalem were the Magi were traveling from the night of their meeting with Herod a date not long before his death.

We know that these Magi in the East took sufficient notice in a star they associate with a arrival of a Jewish king and that this meant enough to them to follow the signs and go to where a king would reign in Israel, Jerusalem bearing gifts. Also that the signs that clued these Eastern Magi were not so remarkable that Herod or the people in Jerusalem recognized them and were indeed surprised by the news. This suggests that this star was neither so awesome that the people realized something extraordinary was occurring nor a low hovering glow, but something the Magi identified as a star. The time that this star is described as stopping was the night the Magi left Jerusalem and arrived at the house Yahshua was. If Yahshua were resided in house in the midst a city I could see were a more extraordinary navigational aide would be needed.

Walt wrote:
Quote:
Also Scripture doesn't say that the Maji avoided Jerusalem:
And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.
(Matthew 2:12)

They were just told to not return to Herod, and they went home by a different way.


I'm not clear what you're getting at here Walt. Herod was in Jerusalem the night the Magi left to visit Yahshua. A band of Eastern Magi traveling through Jerusalem who excited Herod's court with news of a star and a new king who were expected to return with a report I suspect would be anticipated by the folks in Jerusalem. The reason Yah warned them not to return to Herod (in Jerusalem) I would suspect was so that Yahshua's family could escape to Egypt and not be coerced in assisting Herod's killers ID the new king. From Bethlehem, the timing would be critical and redirection avoiding Jerusalem en route to Babylon would require some effort. From distant Nazareth by the time the band of Magi would return to Herod, the Yahshua's family could easily be in Egypt by the time word got to Herod and avoiding Jerusalem would be simple during there ret6urn route since it was out of their way.

Walt wrote:
Quote:
Scripture plainly stating that Messiah went from Bethlehem, to Jerusalem, to Nazareth isn't sufficient?


No Walt it isn't not when we are reconciling two accounts which feature different events and are silent about details appearing in the other. Luke's clearly describes a birth, and dates an arrival in the Temple and a return to Nazareth. No mention whatever of Magi or a flight to Egypt, Herod sending killers etc. Luke's next update of the days old Yahshua returns to Nazareth is his adventure in Jerusalem 12 years later. The language in Luke's account allows for a toddler possibly up to two year old and mentions neither his explicit birth, celebratory angels, a dedication at the Jerusalem Temple, nor a return to Nazareth until after the flight to Egypt.

I accept both accounts as being truthful but see the best explanation that fits both accounts being that Luke describes Yahshua's birth in a season other than winter a features a dedication in Jerusalem and an uneventful return to Nazareth. A second later event occurs in which Yahshua is a toddler, NOT a newborn also in Bethlehem and features a visit by Magi guided there by a Star which they associated with him and guided them to the house where he was at by appearing to stand still in the sky above said house. Matt's account makes it clear that Bethlehem was the town the Magi were bound for that night as the star appearing above Nazareth would require the Magi leave in opposite direction.

It is a matter of reconciling the details in multiple accounts. Thankfully they do fit and in this case we even have reliable astronomical data that fits the events and allows precise timing for one of these events.

For an even more extraordinary exercise try piecing together each and every detail of four accounts of the morning of Yahshua's resurrection without omitting or conflicting anything. Thankfully in answer to challenge from a skeptic I learned that it can be done but there is much to be reconciled.
Offline Theophilus  
#28 Posted : Saturday, November 15, 2008 8:50:17 PM(UTC)
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lassie1865 wrote:
Dear Friends,

If (since) Messiah was born on the Feast of Tabernacles, wouldn't each family in Bethlehem have a sukkot out in their backyard? Perhaps the Messiah was actually born in one of them?

Lassie1865


I'm actually not sure that we can say with certainty that Yahshua was indeed "born" during Sukkot. It certainly possible and does fit well with a pattern of fulfilling Messianic Miqra. The DVD presentation I referred to on the Star of Bethlehem suggested a Passover 3 BCE conception with apparently a Pentecost 2 BCE birth.

I'd be curious if one of our language experts can tell us if the description in Luke's account is consistent with a tabernacle?

Swalchy's description of the Greek terms used in Matt's account add to my thought that like the change in the nature of the Structure, Yahshua may well have been older when the Magi arrived, possibly a months old toddler up to even two years old.
Offline edStueart  
#29 Posted : Sunday, November 16, 2008 2:49:34 AM(UTC)
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Being from Pennsylvania, I was always taught that the Immaculate Conception was on December 23, 1972CE...
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline Walt  
#30 Posted : Sunday, November 16, 2008 5:03:27 AM(UTC)
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Theophilus wrote:
Hello Walt, I like Ed have also enjoyed this discussion. I'd like to explore a few points a little deeper.


So under your Nazareth theory, the warning dream was exclusively to fulfill the prophecy Matthew 2:15 referenced. While I agree that fleeing to Egypt fulfills the prophecy, it clearly was NOT due to any immediate danger since Matt's account clearly records Herod's killing squad following the Magi south to the little village Bethlehem of Judah, NOT Nazareth in the far north of the country. Without a real need to urgently leave the Nazareth the 2:15 prophecy could be fulfilled if Yahshua resided in Egypt anytime before His earthly ministry began. Also the Magi in Matt's account clear tell Herod they're going to Bethlehem, were the star is standing over which they've observed since before their departure from Babylon, hence why Herod sent his killers there. The only logical explanation for an urgent flight to Egypt were if the danger were bound for there location, which we know from Matt's account was Bethlehem.


It wasn't just to be out of Bethlehem at the time of the killing either, otherwise they could have just gone to Nazereth and been safe.

Why did they have to stay in Egypt till Herod's death id Bethlehem killing was the only threat?

Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Yahweh appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him."
(Matthew 2:13)

This verse implies a greater threat than just the killings at Bethlehem.
Just because Scripture only records the killing at Bethlehem, doesn't mean the Herod's search to destroy Messiah wasn't a more encompassing task.

Theophilus wrote:


Ed's point on the geography and travel routes is also correct. From Nazareth it would make no logical sense whatever to get to Babylon via Jerusalem. From Bethlehem, Jerusalem is the obvious first stop on the return route.


Yes , but the ONLY reason the Magi would have had to go to Jesusalem was to report back to Herod as he requested.

It doesn't say they avoided Jerusalem like they had to go around it, it just says they were warned to not return to Herod, so they went back a different way - This would be true if they visited the child in Nazareth.



With the Luke recording after the birth, there was 8 days and then the circumcision.
33 days later was the sin offering in Jerusalem.
They then left Jerusalem for Nazareth.

With Matthew, they left the house the night following the visit by the Magi, and stayed there till Herod's death.

How could the Magi have visited them in Bethlehem - then they leave for Egypt, staying till Herod's death - and be in Jerusalem for the sin offering?

That gives them only a window of less than 33 days, VERY unlikely.
Offline edStueart  
#31 Posted : Sunday, November 16, 2008 5:10:29 AM(UTC)
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Walt wrote:
With the Luke recording after the birth, there was 8 days and then the circumcision.


Doh! I forgot about that!

Walt wrote:
That gives them only a window of less than 33 days, VERY unlikely.


The whole thing was very unlikely!

:-)
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline edStueart  
#32 Posted : Sunday, November 16, 2008 5:17:28 AM(UTC)
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So, does anyone have practical suggestions regarding moving my family and close friends away from the celebration of the pagan rite and towards something better?
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline Icy  
#33 Posted : Sunday, November 16, 2008 2:52:19 PM(UTC)
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lassie1865 wrote:
Dear Friends,

If (since) Messiah was born on the Feast of Tabernacles, wouldn't each family in Bethlehem have a sukkot out in their backyard? Perhaps the Messiah was actually born in one of them?

Lassie1865


While I am not a language expert, I do know that a manger is not what we always picture. It is not a barn. The messianic place I have been going to says that a manger actually is a sukka (sp?), or tabernacle. Which goes quite well with him being born on Sukkot and with Luke (I think) telling us that he "Tabernacled with us."
Offline In His Name  
#34 Posted : Sunday, November 16, 2008 4:32:52 PM(UTC)
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edStueart wrote:
So, does anyone have practical suggestions regarding moving my family and close friends away from the celebration of the pagan rite and towards something better?


I am struggling with the same problem Ed. So far I have announced that I will not be able to participate in our traditional Christmas next year. That gives me this year to explain why and time to work out an acceptable alternative. My wife is reading YY now and my kids are all teenagers who have listened to the changes that I have been going through the last two years since finding YY, so everyone is aware of the issues theoretically. Now it is time for the rubber to meet the road.

My thought is simply to remove the bad. I guess the next step is to define the bad.

I also intend to get serious about observing Yahweh's 7 Miqra. I am not sure if that will help or hurt.

Any thoughts?
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#35 Posted : Sunday, November 16, 2008 10:49:26 PM(UTC)
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In His Name wrote:
I am struggling with the same problem Ed. So far I have announced that I will not be able to participate in our traditional Christmas next year. That gives me this year to explain why and time to work out an acceptable alternative. My wife is reading YY now and my kids are all teenagers who have listened to the changes that I have been going through the last two years since finding YY, so everyone is aware of the issues theoretically. Now it is time for the rubber to meet the road.

My thought is simply to remove the bad. I guess the next step is to define the bad.

I also intend to get serious about observing Yahweh's 7 Miqra. I am not sure if that will help or hurt.

Any thoughts?



I think you have just bottled our experiance as a family. This is our last "Christmas" - although up until now we have kinda been trying to do what Ken does - the dance of avoidence. Its a hard dance! I just feel now like we need to make a stand, not nesserserily again the "evils" of paganism, but for all the good things Yah gives us. So yea, this will be our last dance as to say... then we have the year to tell family and friends...

We actually have managed to squeeze christmas into one day this year! Very glad for that...

Time to put the rubber to the road :)
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline bitnet  
#36 Posted : Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:31:09 PM(UTC)
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Shalom,

Aye, aye! Staying afloat in the ocean of paganism is kinda hard when you can get wet so easily... Be that as it may, put on your scuba suit of the Set-Apart Spirit and start paddling furiously to the safety of the Abba Yahweh's shores! Don't even go to the Christmas masses or services and when you do fellowship with family, do not give presents. You'll be looked on as skintflints for a while but the message will eventually sink in... and you have a chance to let your light shine, not just through your words but through your (in)actions.

Almost forgot, if you want another article to help you with this, click here and download Why We Should Not Observe Christmas.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline In His Name  
#37 Posted : Monday, November 17, 2008 2:54:31 PM(UTC)
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bitnet wrote:

Almost forgot, if you want another article to help you with this, click here and download Why We Should Not Observe Christmas.


Excellent!

Quote:
Matthew 15:2 - Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Matthew 15:3 - But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of YAHWEH by your tradition?


I will have to bookmark this, THANKS bitnet.
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline edStueart  
#38 Posted : Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:01:52 AM(UTC)
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Here is a graphic I made with a desktop astronomy program and GIMP.
UserPostedImage
The conjunction gives the Maji confirmation of what they were able to read from the Hebrew scrolls and just enough time to get to Jerusalem and Bethlehem in September of 2 BCE.
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#39 Posted : Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:51:23 AM(UTC)
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I love that image Ed - nice work :D
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline lassie1865  
#40 Posted : Thursday, November 20, 2008 1:47:52 PM(UTC)
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Dear Friends,

If the star first appeared on June 17th, 2 BCE, perhaps that is the day of "quickening" - i.e., John the Baptist leapt for joy at the 6th month of Elizabeth's pregnancy; so, maybe Miriam conceived on Dec 9, 3 BCE, and was at that 6 month mark on June 17th? I read on the internet star map site that at the end of Nov, early Dec Jupiter and Venus are going to be extremely close to each other in the constellation of Capricorn, but not one in front of the other; that will not happen until 2065 (every 247 years). http://stargazing.suite1...ht_sky_for_november_2009

Lassie1865
Offline edStueart  
#41 Posted : Friday, November 21, 2008 12:43:00 PM(UTC)
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Was this the Maji's line of march?UserPostedImage
Up the Euphrates river, cross into Syria. (Traders found it much easier to travel along, or on a river, verses a direct path across some very hard desert.)
Turn west and cross into Lebanon. (Travel through forested region, rather than through desert!)
Turn south, cross the Golan, enter Galilee, then follow Jordan river to Jerusalem.

Link to "star" of Bethlehem, as viewed from Babylon.
The conjunction gives the Maji confirmation of what they were able to read from the Hebrew scrolls and just enough time to get to Jerusalem and Bethlehem in September of 2 BCE.

Edited by user Friday, November 21, 2008 5:34:37 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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But first, it will piss you off!
Offline Bubsy  
#42 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:31:32 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
So, does anyone have practical suggestions regarding moving my family and close friends away from the celebration of the pagan rite and towards something better?


I was doing a bit of thinking last December on how I would handle ceasing to observe "Christmas". I was thinking up how I might respond to "Merry Christmas" with perhaps, "Merry anniversary of the birth of the Satanic counterfeit Messiah Tammuz day," in my best Beldar the Conehead voice - matter-of-fact and straight to the point. Maybe that's an idea for a Christmas pamphlet this year, if anyone is thinking of producing one. ("Earthlings: May I have 2,743* words with you about this day you commonly call Christmas?" *Substitute with the actual number of an accurate word count of the final document.) Then you could have some fun with the eccentric alien delivering the terrible truth about the Satanic Babylonian origins about Christmas (and maybe Easter) to your audience in a matter-of-fact style. ("I have optically and mentally processed all the writings you possess regarding the various deities you humans have heeded throughout your history. Most of them make amusing reading and entertainingly improbable tales, but one deity stood out from all the others, the one named Yahowah. I processed mass quantities of evidence that provides a 99.999999999999999999999% chance that this Yahowah deity is actually real. Upon closer examination of the words attributed to this Yahowah deity, among those who seem to be trying to follow his words, I have detected numerous divergences in overall human conduct from the words of Yahowah, most particularly in days and times of celebrations. It would seem that your celebrations are not what you commonly believe them to be…")

With regard to a Christmas tree and its ornaments, maybe point out how the balls aren't nearly big enough to be in anatomically correct proportion to make the tree and decorations in-line with its real origins.Laugh
Ha Shem? I'm kind of fond of Ha Shemp, Ha Larry, and Ha Moe myself. And the earlier shorts with Ha Curly.
Offline Stewart James  
#43 Posted : Saturday, December 1, 2018 4:58:12 AM(UTC)
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This subject goes back in time, however I thought I would post my comments for what it's worth!

Questions!

1/ When you discover there is no Christ, what happens to Christmas and Christianity?

2/ Which religious group holds a mass - meaning the mass of Christ?

3/ Which religious group created the order of Jesus and the Jesuits?

4/ Which religious group has hijacked the winter solstice, calling it Christmas to the bane of of Wickan's movement?

5/ What will you do when you find out that Yahowah hates all religious festivals and celebrations?

6/ What will you do when you find that religion has lied to you all your life?

I suggest that there is only one sensible answer and I am sure the majority on this forum have come to the same conclusion and sensible course of action!

Pagan rights and religion (cults) never lead you to God, no religion tells the truth and we are lost for lack of understanding when you continue in this way.

The Whore of Babylon still babbles on and on, so we need to reveal the truth to those who will listen and there are few who will!

Edited by user Saturday, December 8, 2018 3:44:06 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Typo's from a two fingered typist!

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken, or cease being honest!
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