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Offline Theophilus  
#1 Posted : Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:33:34 PM(UTC)
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I've again been asked a probing and detailed question by a skeptic and I'm hoping a resource already exists that someone here can point me to help address it. Otherwise I hope we can discuss the tiopic and put the peices together. The challenge in questioner's words is this:

Quote:
Tell me what happened on Easter? I am not asking that you prove what happened, only that you tell me what the record says happened on the day that the most important Christian doctrine was born.

Believers should eagerly take up this challenge, since without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Paul wrote, "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up (1 Corinthians 15:14-15)

The conditions of this challenge are simple and reasonable. In each of the four gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book: Matt. 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20 -21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul's tiny version of the story in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8.

These 165 verses can be read in only a few moments of your time. Then, without omitting a SINGLE detail from these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension -- what happened first, second, and so on. Who said what, when, and where did these things happen.

Since the gospels do not always give a precise time of day, it is permissible to make educated guesses. The narrative does not have to pretend to present a perfect picture -- it only needs to give at least ONE plausible account of all the facts. Fair enough? I will admit that I have tried this challenge myself. I failed miserably!


To begin with I re-read the Pecach - Passover and Anastasis - Resurrection chapters that I believe detail the three days (as well as the Tsadaq - Vindication and Ga'al - Redemption chapters) as far as the dates, fullfiments of the miqras of Passover, Matsah, and FirstFruits spiritually. I confess that I find the other details less significant and have not attempted to assemble a harmonized account to address everyone of the details mentioned in the various accounts.

I'll give you a sample of the secondary questions this skeptic finds difficult to resolve:

Quote:
Does Mary wish to tell the diciples what had happened?
Matthew 28:8 -- Yes -- "They departed quickly ... and ran to tell the diciples"
Mark 16:8 -- No -- "they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid."

Is Mary permitted to touch Jesus after the resurrection?
Matthew 28:9 -- Yes -- "they came and held him by his feet, and worshipped him."
John 20:17 -- No -- Jesus said to her, "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended..."

Who carried the cross?
Matthew 27:32 -- Simon of Cyrene
John 19:17 -- "Only Jesus himself carried the cross."

At what time was Jesus crucified?
Mark: 15:25 -- 9:00 am -- "It was the THIRD hour when they crucified him"
John: 19:14-15 -- 12:00 Noon -- He was not crucified until after the SIXTH hour

On what day was Jesus crucified?
Matthew 26:20-30 -- The first day of Passover -- 15th day of Nissan
John 13:1,29 and 18:28 and 19:14 -- Passover -- 14th day of Nissan

When did Mary prepare the spices?
Mark 16:1 -- Mary prepared the spices AFTER the Sabbath was over.
Luke 23:56 -- Mary prepared the spices BEFORE the Sabbath started.
John 19:39 -- Nicodemus, not Mary, prepared the spices BEFORE the Sabbath.

How many days was Jesus in the tomb?
Matthew 28:1 -- 3 days and 2 nights
John 20:1 -- 2 days and 2 nights
(This is in spite of the prophecy that he would be in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights -- Matthew 12:40)


On who carried the cross I think both men is accurate.

One who and when were spices prepared I again think all the above is accurate.

On what time of day did the crucifixion occur I had a couple of thoughts. One commentary suggests that one was based on Hebrew reconing (Mark) and the other on Roman (John). I was wondering if instead this might be a case of timing an earlier part of the event such as the scourging or parading with the cross beam starting at the ealier hour and actually being nailed to the death stake three hours later?

On the day of the crucifixion, I think YY clarifies Friday the 14th day of Nissan 4000. I'm still confussed as to what is meant by days of Passover?

On how many nights in the tomb, the end of the day Passover (Friday), all of the Sabath of Bikurim (Saturday), and leaving beore the dawn on the first day (Sunday). YY clarifies that Messiyah would suufer from the day he appeared in the center of the land, Jerusalem as a sign (Thursday) the eve of Passover, (Friday the 6th day of the week) the day of Passover and day of preparation befor the Sabbath , the 7th day (Saturday) Sabbath the first day of Matsah, and ending with His resurrection before dawn on the first day, First Fruits.

One I can also anticipate is what did the sign above Yahushua's head read. I think it had three similar messages written in Hebrew/Aramaic, Greek, and Latin
Offline Theophilus  
#2 Posted : Monday, July 23, 2007 4:05:28 AM(UTC)
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Okay I found one harmony to get started but I'll have to check how many of the details are accounted for or left out. If my link works this would be the last two chapters (20 & 21.) The site uses some varient spellings names and word choices from what I'm used to but could still be a useful starting place in peicing together the details:

http://www.messianic.com/yeshua/chap20.htm

I'm trying to figure out just what Mary M did the morning of the resurrection and realize that the different witnesses may have reported various amounts of detail on the same events.

I think I'll need to start with a harmonized account like this and compare it to a collection of all the releveant accounts and check off each of the verses or note where variations to the same event are understandable as I go.
Offline Theophilus  
#3 Posted : Monday, July 23, 2007 9:53:42 AM(UTC)
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Having attempted to read this harmony through with my "skeptic hat" on I can see a couple of questionable aspects.

I'll guess that the appearance near Jerusalem at the ascension would be the best candidiate if any explicity mentioned for the post resurrection appearance before 500 followers / witnesses at one time.

Also that Yahushua's appearance to Saul soon to be Paul was a special later appearance.

The one piece that I'm still attempting to understand in this harmony is the conversation on the road to Emmaus by two disciples. They hear about the women's report but appearently disregarded it having heard from Peter that the body was missing, and possibly from others of the vision and I'm guessing that some say they'd seen Him alive? Maybe others can help me connect the dots.

Quote:
Then at dawn, on the first day of the week, Miryam of Migdal and Miryam the mother of Ya'akov and Shalome, and Yochanah were coming to see the Tomb. They brought spices to anoint Yeshua's [Yahushua's] body. Because a huge stone was over the entrance, they conversed among themselves, "Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?" Then looking, they saw the stone was already rolled back. So they entered the tomb and the body of Yeshua [Yahushua] was gone.

Then Miryam of Migdal ran to Shimon Kefa and the other disciple {Yochanan}, whom Yeshua loved, and said, "They have taken away Adonai out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him."

Immediately, Kefa and that other disciple ran out together, but the other disciple outran Kefa, and came to the tomb first. He stooped down and saw the linen clothes lying there, but he did not go in. Then Shimon Kefa arrived and went into the tomb and saw the linen clothes lying there, and the cloth which was around His head was not lying with the linen clothes, but was wrapped together in a place by itself. Then the other disciple went in, who was first on the scene, and he saw, and believed. For at this point they did not know the scriptures which say, He must rise again from the dead. Then the disciples left and went to their own homes.

But Miryam stood outside at the tomb crying. As she wept she stooped down into the tomb and saw two messengers in dazzling white clothing sitting on the right side, one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Yeshua [Yahushua] had lain. When all the women saw them they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground.
They said to her, "Woman, why do you cry?"

She said, "Because they have taken away Adonai, and I do not know where they have laid Him."

One messenger said to the women, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? You do not need to fear, for I know that you look for Yeshua [Yahushua] HaNatzeret, who was executed on the stake. He is not here. He is risen! Come and see the place where YHVH was laid."

{They looked, then the messenger said,} "Remember how He spoke to you when He was in the Galil? He said, 'the Son of man must be put into the hands of sinful men, and be executed on the stake, and after the third day rise again.' Quickly go now and tell His disciples that He has been resurrected from the dead. Watch! He proceeds you into the Galil. You will see Him there, as I have told you."

They hurriedly began to depart from the tomb with trembling and joyfulness. When Miryam had turned to leave she saw Yeshua [Yahushua] standing there, but did not know it was Yeshua [Yahushua].

Yeshua said unto her, "Woman, why are you crying? Who are you looking for?"

She supposed He was the gardener, so she said to Him, "Sir, if you have carried him from here, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away."

"Miryam," Yeshua [Yahushua] said.

She turned around, and said to him, "Rabbi!"

Yeshua said, "Hello everyone!" The women came and held Him at His feet, and worshiped Him.

"Do not touch me," Yeshua [Yahushua] said, "for I am not yet ascended to Avi. Go to my brothers, and tell them that I ascend to Avi, your Abba; to my Elohim, and your Elohim. Do not be afraid. Go tell my brothers to go to the Galil. They will see me there."

So they returned from the tomb and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Miryam of Migdal, and Yochanah, and Miryam the mother of Ya'akov, and others with them, who told these things to the Shaliachim. But their report seemed to them to be fictional stories, and they did not believe them.

WALK TO AMMA'US

It happened that two of them traveled that same day from Yerushalayim about seven miles, to the village of Amma'us. Along the way they conversed about all these things which had happened. While they reasoned together, Yeshua [Yahushua] Himself came near and walked with them. But their eyes were set ahead, and they didn't recognize Him.

He asked them, "What kind of conversation is this you are having together as you walk? And why so sad?"

Cleopas, one of them, answered, "Are you a newcomer to Yerushalayim? Haven't you heard about the things which have happened here recently?

"What things?" He said.

"Concerning Yeshua [Yahushua] HaNatzeret," they said. "He was a mighty prophet in deeds and words, in the sight of Elohim and all the people. The chief Kohenim and our rulers sentenced him to be condemned to death, and they have executed him on the stake. But, we trusted in him to be the Redeemer of Yisrael. Besides all this, today is after the third day since these things were done. Yes, and some women of our company who were earlier at the Tomb have amazed us. They did not find his body, and they told us that they had also seen a vision of messengers {from Heaven}, who said that he was alive. Ones who were with us went to the tomb and found it {empty} just as the women had told us, but they did not see him."


It seems everyone who saw the two messengers would also have seen the resurrected Yahushua [Yahushua] ? Maybe they took the two reports and accepted Peter's over the women's

Edit note: I realize the importance to YY and the team for properly rendering Messiyah's name even when quoting an author's varint rendering, therefore have set [in brackets] the rendering [Yahushua] YY has taught us and did not wih to confuse readers. I apologize if anyone was confused by this.

Edited by user Sunday, July 29, 2007 11:15:57 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Theophilus  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:24:33 AM(UTC)
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Swalchy wrote:
Hi Theo - Sorry no ones replied to this yet, but you got me intrigued so I am currently trying to harmonise the accounts myself.

I'll post something when I've got it!


Thank you Swalchy, I eagerly await your findings. I'm thinking of replying with what I've presented here and asking the critic for what wholes he sees and re-evaluate then. Obviously he is attempting to demonstrate that the details are not reconcillable and depending on what one is willing to consider one might conclude that they are not. While more complicated than a single perspective account I think the author whose work I linked set most of the peices in a sensible order, even though I struggle to make sense of his name renderings.

I was also considering answering his unintended question, what happened on Easter with the tale Yada and KP relate on Nimrod, wife, and son Tammuz as observed in the sungod mother earth mystery religion / fertility cults, but that is another story I'd like to explore. Maybe another thread?
Offline Jeannie  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, July 24, 2007 11:49:19 AM(UTC)
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Theophilus, your doing such a good job all by yourself!!!!
Offline Theophilus  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, July 25, 2007 3:24:54 AM(UTC)
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Jeannie wrote:
Theophilus, your doing such a good job all by yourself!!!!


Thanks Jeannie, I wish that I felt that way myself. I figured in the absense of a reply I'd update the curious on my progress. While I think we all know the essentials the question really does now have me curious about just what did happened and how all the reports fit together.
Offline Theophilus  
#7 Posted : Sunday, July 29, 2007 11:40:34 AM(UTC)
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Just to update: I did re-read the four accounts + Acts and compared each to the the linked harmony and think it did a good job of addressing just about every detail. I've since read another harmony with slightly different sequencing of events but decided to post the third day accoiunt and see what loose ends are identified.

It seems the challenge is based on the assumption that different accounts reporting different details could not refer to the same event. I did not see any conflicting accounts rather lesser or more detail of the same event, such as fragments of the words the white clad messenger(s) spoke to Maryam and the women.

The one question that I've not resolved to my satisfaction is the timing of the crucifixion. I gather it was dark from noon to three but I'm not clear what if anything occured at third hour (9:00 am?) that Mark speaks of? I'm still thinking the time when the order to cruficy was issued, not when the nails were driven.

Offline shohn  
#8 Posted : Monday, August 13, 2007 7:24:12 PM(UTC)
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Not sure about the actual harmonization, but I do recall a similar article of this sort on christian think tank .org or whatever it is. It wasn't actually harmonizing, but rather took a news event and showed how different witnesses (i.e., the news media) can report different details, yet that doesn't mean the story is not real. That may drive home the point. He'll probably counter with saying that if somebody says that they produced a rabbit out of thin air, then the burden of proof is on them.

In addition, some have tried to explain it has a Hebraic thought process, in which, as long as the essence is captured, the details may be a bit off. I think I read this in the Case for Christ awhile back. Something to the effect that if all of the details align perfectly, then one could suspect collusion, but if there are a couple of things off here and there it is probably more real. They indicated something about there being this magical number of about 40% of multiple witnesses story should not match in the details for it to be real. Stated another way, Eddie Haskal from Leave it to Beaver was always untrustworthy because his presentation in front of the Cleavers was "too" good. In effect, if they made all this up, then it should have lined up better in order to better foster the story as believable.

Of course, if you can actually make all the detail line up, then awesome!
--
Shohn of Texas
Offline Theophilus  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, August 14, 2007 6:11:07 AM(UTC)
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I read that in "The Case For Christ" as well and found it curious. I can accept adding or subtracting details depending on the audience and intent of the telling but the core should be consistent and without irreconcilable details. Other than understanding the difference in the hour given for the crucifixion, I find no "irreconcilable" differences in the specific events referenced.

The challenge was to see if a harmonized account could be narrated that reconstructs as much as we can tell actually happened by including every detail in each of the accounts. The challenger assumes that this cannot be done without contradictory and irreconcilable differences becoming appearant. It seems many of these are instances of reporting portions of conversations, signs, or what the messenger(s) in white looked like.

You can see by reading each account and going back to the harmony I referenced (or others like it) that each adds or leaves out certain details but this harmony does seem to me to fit all of the details. It took me awhile to determine that the two on the road disbelieved the women's later report that they encountered Yahushua because the Shimon Kepha and Yochannon had returned sometime before the women and confirmed only the first report, that the tomb was empty and that the body was missing.

It also took me awhile to realize that Yahushua must have led his followers from the mountains of the northern Gallil region to the Mount of Olives near Jerusalem shorthly before the ascension. Also that the women must have made (atleast?) two trips to the empty tomb. One where they found only that it was empty and later with the two who left with Maryam to encounter the gardener who revealed himself to be the risen Yahushua.

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