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Offline sirgodfrey  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, October 7, 2008 3:54:04 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

I am having a time trying to understand the concept of us not "choosing" Yahweh, but having to "choose" Him in the sense of accepting His gracious gift of salvation and "reciprocating His love." Yahushua said that you have not chosen me, but I chose you; however, one must choose Him in order to receive fellowship with Him, salvation and eternal life.


So how does being "foreordained" work with the aforementioned beings stated? Ex: Ephesians 1:4-5

Thank you for the help. I love you guys.
Offline bitnet  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, October 7, 2008 4:43:45 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

Very quickly... how would you like to be pre-qualified for a ticket to the biggest party in the universe? Only one condition -- believe and do everything Elohim Yahweh tells you to do. Many have been invited, but not everyone wants to go because they think that they will have to carry a heavy burden to the party despite being told by the Host that the burden is light and that He shall even carry part of the burden. So there's the simple difference between being chosen by Yahweh, and you choosing to follow Him. Before you were born He knew that sirgodfrey living in such and such circumstances shall eventually be in a position to receive the invitation and respond to it freely. Not many have the chance to be invited because of the society they were born to live into.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, October 7, 2008 12:37:55 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

thank you for that bitnet, i greatly appreciate it; however, i believe that i may be in need of some elaboration so that i may understand it more fully. if anyone has anything to add to this, it would be very much so appreciated. your brother Godfrey.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, October 7, 2008 2:01:07 PM(UTC)
Robskiwarrior
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Personally - I can see the argument for pre-destination (the fact that we are elect and dont have a real choice, really...) BUT that is because I am stuck in my linear mindset.

Trying to grasp eternal matters with a finite mind (and a not very well used one in my case) is like trying to hold water with your feet. Sometimes you can feel that you have it, and even sometimes you get revelation, but all too easily it sloshes through your toes.

Yahuweh knows the choices we make and made, He calls all who will hear Him, there is no agenda... there is just one simple fact... He is the begining and the end. Right now He is at the start of time, and at the end of time, whilest being at this point too - He can see all.

SOOO ok you have 2 objects in front of you, a blue and a red. (oh how matrix!) You have the ability to choose one of the objects. The moment you touch the object you have made your choice. BUT Yahuweh already knew which one you would choose. So you get to go back in time and choose again, knowing that Yahuweh knew you would choose that one, you choose the other - or you try and double bluff... the point is, Yahuweh isnt a psychic - He is just there the moment before, the moment it happens and the moment after you make the decision.

He dosnt tell the future, or set our lives in concreate in that way, BUT, because of His nature and the fact that now is anytime for Him it can seem that way for us.

He just knows the choices you me and Mr Smith make, because He is there at that moment. So because He can see what choices you make, He knows who you will become, no matter how many times you think you have changed your mind :)...

Did that make ANY sense at all? My brain hurts... Im going to bed...
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline sirgodfrey  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, October 7, 2008 2:25:51 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

i concur and understand that He exists and is present at all times, but what i am trying to understand is the use of the word "selected" in Scripture when speaking of those that He grants eternal life. Somehow being invited to the party is understandable, but limits the full scope of scripture because it specifically states that He has "chosen" some for salvation and fellowship with Himself.


btw, what you typed made some type of sense, although i may have to read it multiple times to come :) thank you
Offline Matthew  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, October 8, 2008 2:41:06 AM(UTC)
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I see it that Yahuweh "selected" the position of "adopted sons" to those that choose Him. He made a way before the foundation of the universe for people to be restored (blameless and pure in His sight) to Him. People who choose Him would become blameless and pure because He had predestined that postion. There are many unbelieves who are sincere in heart that I believe Yahuweh draws them near giving them the opportunity to accept or reject Him. Paul had a dramatic conversion, Yahushua didn't force him, but Paul still had a choice to make. But blessed are us who have not seen yet still believe.

Now what about John the Immerser, he seems to be unique and singled out, it almost looks like he had no choice?

PS: if I'm wrong in my understanding of this predestination versus choice thing then can someone point me out please.

Edit: I just thought of Proverb 1:20-33, especially verse 28 which say "Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me." Why does God say this, it seems strange, but it's pretty obvious when reading the chapter, it's because they rejected Him and are trying to find Him in their own strength, which is impossible. Yada covered a similar thing somewhere in Yada Yahweh, I think in the Going Astray book with world leaders, rabbis, and religios clerics doing the same thing. There is only one way to Yahuweh, and that's through choosing Yahushua.
Offline Yahshuaslavejeff  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, October 8, 2008 8:14:16 AM(UTC)
Yahshuaslavejeff
Joined: 5/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Israel / oklahoma

John had a choice, just like Esther had a choice... and Paul had a choice.
They never turned away from what Abba Elohim trained them and taught them and spoke to them to do.
They may have/most probably learned "obedience through suffering in the flesh" same as is written of Yahshua.
Like Esther, if John had decided not to continue with Yhvh, Yhvh would have provided another Way to accomplish Yhvh's Plan.
As it is written, if Esther did not do as she was instructed to do very specifically, Yhvh would have provided another Way to save His People from being slaughtered.
Just as Paul said, "If I , Paul, (ever) come to you with an other gospel than you have received, do not receive me",
indicating simply the need for daily testing for ones self and of anyone speaking as if the Word of Yhvh.
Free will is simply free will.
Without free will Yhvh would not be pleased by faith. Simple. Yet man complicates it(messes it up).
...
Accepting Yahshua as Master never saved any one, and never will.
(As if doing Yhvh a favor by accepting the sacrificed Lamb who suffered humiliation, stoning and crucifixion.)
No. That is absurd.
Yahshua said simply, If you love me, you will do what I say - you wil keep Yhvh's commandments.
He also said without wavering - do not think that following me is easy, no , it is very hard, and requires every bit of your life, every bit of your mind and soul and strength, so don't be too quick to follow me, make sure you are ready and will not draw back(no one who is fearful nor any coward will enter the kingdom).
...
Yahshua said to His disciples you must live a holy life, joyfully and willingly obedient in every way, because Abba is holy.
(btw, you will not see anyone promoted on the news/tv religion /politics who lives a holy life. - billy g. and m.teresa were not children of Yhvh but were/are servants of hasatan. This is clearly explained on other websites, simply, aligned with Scripture)

Offline bitnet  
#8 Posted : Thursday, October 9, 2008 2:08:54 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

Also, this ties in very much with what you understand about salvation... you already know that you are saved for eternal life, but is that it? No. You are invited to serve Yahweh as a member of His Family to the rest of humanity and His creation during the millenium and beyond. This is not a simple "follow me and rest in peace forever in the clouds from the time of your death" kind of thing promoted by the rest of the world. Your job now is to answer Yahweh, "Yes" or "No" as to whether you will follow Him now and in turn serve the rest of His creation at the appointed time. This means free will is involved. The thing is, we also realise that we are far from qualified, but the Boss says that we can still join that happy team on the tug rope even though He can pull it all together by Himself with the flick of a fingernail (figuratively speaking, of course). So the rest of His plan is to cleanse us and make us clean and ready for the job, much like a father bathing his small son and changing his son's soiled clothes to make ready for a party. We couldn't tie our shoelaces when we were two years old, but Abba Yahweh shall teach us how to be like Him and wield some of His power. For that, you have to have a trained mind and character... you simply cannot have your own thoughts and ideas that are contrary to His. Which is why He is so concerned about your mind... do not even think of lusting or coveting because it just ain't right if you have so much power. Just pause for a moment and think what would you do if you had the powers of invisiblity, strength and teleportation... just what would you do? You'd have to think carefully and choose that you do not break any of His commandments! So choice and freewill still plays heavily at any time.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline In His Name  
#9 Posted : Saturday, October 11, 2008 4:36:10 AM(UTC)
In His Name
Joined: 9/7/2008(UTC)
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Jeff,

Sorry, but I don't think I follow your statement (below). I am reading it to say we are not saved by Grace, but by how well we follow? Could you elaborate, Thank you.

Quote:
...
Accepting Yahshua as Master never saved any one, and never will.
(As if doing YHWH a favor by accepting the sacrificed Lamb who suffered humiliation, stoning and crucifixion.)
No. That is absurd.
Yahshua said simply, If you love me, you will do what I say - you wil keep YHWH's commandments.
He also said without wavering - do not think that following me is easy, no , it is very hard, and requires every bit of your life, every bit of your mind and soul and strength, so don't be too quick to follow me, make sure you are ready and will not draw back(no one who is fearful nor any coward will enter the kingdom).
...
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline Yahshuaslavejeff  
#10 Posted : Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:30:18 AM(UTC)
Yahshuaslavejeff
Joined: 5/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Israel / oklahoma

Not by how well, but IF you obey.
1 John, Matthew, Luke, Mark and John
IF you obey, you are mine.
IF you do not obey, I never knew you.
..
..
multitudes claim "I ACCEPT YOU", but they are liars, and the truth is not in them.
..
Not one of the disciples, not even one who came to/through John the Immerser, said "I accept you"...
..
"I accept you" is a self-willed self-deceived statement.
..
I obey you, I will do whatever you say - that is what a disciple says to his Master, and he does what he is told.
If he does not do what he is told, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
..
Many times this is repeated for those who love the truth and seek life,
but those who do not want to give up their selfish ways, they just say "I accept you", thinking they are getting in.
They are in for a big surprise, and will not be given another chance once they die, or possibly before that, as Yhvh chooses.
Offline Robert9876  
#11 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2009 8:39:30 AM(UTC)
Robert9876
Joined: 6/9/2009(UTC)
Posts: 106
Location: Pflugerville, Texas

Now, I could be wrong, but I think what Yahshuaslavejeff is saying is that we are in fact saved by grace, and by nothing else, but it is really a matter of whether we actually DO accept it.

For instance, I could say that "I accept you Yahweh, as my God", but that alone proves nothing. It is whether or not we really believe it, in our hearts, that matters. And the one way of knowing that, of what is in our hearts and whom we really serve, is by our actions. So, we CANNOT save ourselves, but to freely and truly accept Yahshua's gift, to truly love and wish to serve Him, our actions must follow what we are saying, one must not disprove the other. So, it is not by works that we are saved and changed, but by the grace of Yahweh; but, if we have that grace and that change, then there will be evidence for it manifest in our lives. In other words, we will produce fruit, but it is not the fruit itself that is saving, that is merely the natural cause and effect situation that has panned out, much the same as leading others away from Yahweh will lead to eternal separation. I hope that wasn't too convoluted!

Please correct me if I am wrong. Yahweh knows how young I am (spiritually). But I believe Paul talks about this in Romans and I believe this also appears in the book of James.
As of 7-22-2009, 10:19 PM US Central Time

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Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#12 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2009 11:44:44 AM(UTC)
TRUTH B-TOLD
Joined: 3/7/2008(UTC)
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Location: USA

Shalom Robert,

The free gift of Grace is complicated in it's own simplicity,Lol. If Yahushua has done all the work for our salvation, but we must do the work of saying we accept that work, than he didn't do all of the work. He did 99.5% of the work and we must do the other .5% in order to receive the FREE GIFT. That would make us stealing the glory of a jealous Elohim that says he WILL NOT share his glory. We are also told that we must come to him with a broken heart, can we do that when we have a deceitful, wicked, and continually evil heart. You are right that our good works are a result of Yahuweh giving us a new heart and a new spirit that we may live in Yahushua through his Grace.
Offline Robert9876  
#13 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2009 12:31:18 PM(UTC)
Robert9876
Joined: 6/9/2009(UTC)
Posts: 106
Location: Pflugerville, Texas

Hello Truth be told,

You are correct! It is a simple/complex thing. One thing that just came to me upon reading what you said, concerning Yahweh being jealous and wanting the Glory, which really is His anyways, is the fact that we cannot even go to Him with a broken heart if He didn't allow us to anyways, so even THAT belongs to Him.

Firstly, I would simply be an animal where it not for Yahweh giving me a "nesamash" (the spelling is real close to that anyways) and would lack the ability to make a rational, informed decision. If he didn't give us the Law, we wouldn't know that we had sinned, and if He didn't give us a conscience, we would not be able to interpret that law. If He also didn't give us mercy and grace, we would not be able to approach Him at all, and would simply be dead in our transgressions, if He didn't give us His son, we wouldn't be able to be saved. If He didn't give us a thirst to know Him and be known, we wouldn't give Him a passing thought, and if He wasn't true to His word and if He wasn't both truthful AND loving, we wouldn't even WANT to know Him.

So far, score is-
Yahweh: 1,000,000,000 x 10*7000
man: 0
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