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Offline shalom82  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, September 9, 2008 9:58:18 PM(UTC)
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Shalom Achim v'Achiot sheli,

I have always been perplexed by the story of the adulterous woman, I have to admit. When Messiah Yahushua made the statement that He did not come to abolish the Torah, I took that at face value. And most of His teachings are in line with that proclamation...at face value. But I have to admit that I have been searching for an answer about the adulterous woman, because it's one of those cases that the mainstream christians use to expound upon the supercession of Torah by Grace. I cannot accept that due to the whole context of the Besorim. Well here is a plausible answer. I will admit the article's conclusions are educated and sensible extrapolations. I invite anyone else to offer their take on this topic. I will post the whole article simple because I cannot link it properly due to problems at the site of origin.

Yahshua and the Adulterous Woman
By M. Evans
(John 8:3 NNAS) The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, (John 8:4 NNAS) they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act." (John 8:5 NNAS) "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" (John 8:6 NNAS) They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him....

The little clash Yahshua had with the Scribes and Pharisees was one of many over the interpretation and understanding of the Scriptures and of the Law. The Jewish leaders were getting "Fed Up" with this New Man on the Block (outsider) teaching a different or contradictory religion to their own. All this was creating the erosion of their control and authority over the nice little SYSTEM they had going.

Many teach today that this little episode is proof that Yahshua did come and introduce a new and different religion which "did away " with the law and replaced it with GRACE. "We are no longer under the LAW", that's what they teach, and the proof of it is that Yahshua Saved the Adulterous Woman that was condemned to death in accordance to the Law of Moses. (John 8:5)

First, Yahshua DID NOT come to do away or change the Law. (Mat 5:17) He stated very clearly that not one jot or tittle of the law would fall or change so long as heaven and earth remains to exist. (Luke 16:17 & Mat 5:18)
So, Did Yahshua SAVE this woman from her Death sentence by introducing the Doctrine of Grace? Or did the Law of Moses (YAHWEH'S LAW) save Her? Let's take a look….

There is much speculation as to what Yahshua wrote on the ground the two times, in John 8:6 and John 8:8. One common teaching is that he was probably writing down the names of various members of the group who were condemning the woman and writing down their matching sins the second time. With this exposure, it is suggested, the mob broke up, each seeing their names and sins written down before them. (John 8:9)

I suggest that in reality what occurred was that Yahshua actually became the Woman's Advocate/Lawyer or Mediator against the UNJUST application of the Law. The Law does read that an adulteress woman shall surely be put to death because committing adultery is a Sin and death is the penalty for that particular sin. This was the argument used by the Scribes and Pharisees for justifying the condemnation of the woman.

But Yahshua, by knowing the LETTER of the Law and the SPIRIT (Intent/Purpose) of the Law, was actually accusing the Scribes and Pharisees of Sinning (The Breaking of the Law) because they were NOT following DUE PROCESS according to the LAW. Remember, the Breaking or going against Yahweh's Law (also referred to as the Mosaic Law or Torah) is defined as Sin. (1 John 3:4)

Have you heard the terms “Rule of Law” and “Point of Law”? I suggest these were the issues Yahshua was arguing about by writing the applicable Scriptures on the ground!

Setting the scene with the above information, let us go through the chain of events of John 8:2-11 again. A better and more accurate understanding may result by supplying some commentary between the lines that is supported by the Scriptures of Yahweh.

1. Early in the morning Yahshua came again into the temple court, and all the peoples were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them.

2. The scribes and the Pharisees then brought a woman caught in adultery and having set her in the center of the court, they said to Yahshua, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. "Now in the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Yahshua stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground the following Scriptures:

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10) If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel. (Deuteronomy 22:22)

These Scriptures showed that the Rule of Law and Due Process was not being followed because the man (the adulterer) was not in custody and was not being charged along with the woman. But it seems that this was not a major issue with the Scribes and Pharisees because they continued to force the issue concerning the guilt and execution of the woman only.

But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He, who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. This time the Scriptures he wrote were:

At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you. (Deuteronomy 17:6-7)

One witness shall not rise up against a man (or woman) for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. If a false witness rise up against any man (or woman) to testify against him (or her) that which is wrong; Then both of them, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before YHWH, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother (or sister); Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother (or sister): so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.(Deuteronomy 19:15-19)

Having to address the groups second misapplication of the Law, Yahshua wrote down Deuteronomy 17:6&7 (as Points of Law) to justify his question of who among them are the two or three legal witnesses that are required to throw the first stones. (John 8:7) Yahshua did not write down the past individual sins of these Scribes and Pharisees (as is commonly taught). What he did write down were the Sins that they were in the very act of committing!

Deuteronomy 19:15-19 was to remind these supposedly scholars of YHWH’s Law that if there were any false witness, then they were sinners (Breaking of the Law), and would be judged according to the Rule of Law. (In this case, possibly be put to death!)

Yahshua was making the Law clear to these Scribes & Pharisees that there had to be two or three legal witnesses to this act of adultery in order to make this a legal and just execution. If the required witnesses were not present (to cast the first stones) then the whole group was in the act of sinning because YHWH’s Law was being broken!

At this time Yahshua probably reminded the group before him that according to Scriptures, Liars and False Witnesses are an abomination to YHWH. (Proverbs 6:16 & 6:19)

When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, until He was left alone, with the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Yahshua said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Yahshua said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more." (John 8:10-11)

The older Scribes and Pharisees (being wiser) were first to leave realizing they were caught in a no win (sinful) situation. Yahshua him self could not condemn the woman either (even if she was guilty) because he was not a witness to the crime. If he were to condemn her, He would have broken the very Laws that he came to make True and Whole again. (See 1 Peter 2:22)

Yahshua surely had love and compassion for this woman, because it is Yahweh's desire that all will be saved (1 Tim 2:4 & 2 Peter 3:9), by telling her to "Go, and Sin no more." He also was giving her Good earthly advice because if one does NOT sin, he or she would not open themselves to this sort of predicament.

Many interpret the event of Yahshua and the adulterous woman as an example of Grace. John 8:2-11 is used in many teachings and arguments as proof that only sinless people have a right to pass judgement and condemn anyone. By their reasoning, all have sinned and come short of the law, (Romans 3:23) so therefore, there can be no penalties or judgement of YHWH's law carried out under such logic. Therefore, the Law (Torah) is not for men to administer.

As you can see, the point Yahshua made in this episode was not whether the woman was Guilty or Not, the point was if the Law (Torah) was being Justly Applied according to the Rule of Law (YHWH's Law).

Now you answer the Question, Was it YHWH's Law (the Torah of Moses) that saved the Adulterous Woman from DEATH?
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Matthew  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, September 10, 2008 5:59:00 AM(UTC)
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
That's a very interesting angle on that passage and an interesting statement by Swalchy!

Can the same be said for Joseph and Mary because he wanted to divorce her quietly instead of shaming her via public disgrace? He seemed to do it out of love and mercy. He had proof that she was no longer a maiden therefore she was subject to death by stoning according to Deuteronomy 22. Was he now breaking the law? Because according to Deuteronomy 24 he could write a certificate of divorce if he found some uncoveredness in her, not that I fully understand the terms uncoveredness in this case. Is there a contradiction in Torah here?

But my understanding is this thing called repentance, which is in the Spirit of the Torah. What if two people were subject to stoning as Deuteronomy 22:23-24 and they repented, would the stoning still be applied?

Matthew 1:18-19 "18But the birth of Yahushua Messiah was as follows: After His mother Miryam was engaged to Yoseph, before they came together, she was found to be pregnant from the Set-apart Spirit. 19And Yoseph her husband, being righteous, and not wishing to make a show of her, had in mind to put her away secretly."

Deuteronomy 22:13-24 "13When any man takes a wife, and shall go in to her, and shall hate her, 14and shall make abusive charges against her and bring an evil name on her and say, ‘I took this woman, and when I came to her I did not find her a maiden,’ 15then the father and mother of the young woman shall take and bring out the proof of the girl’s maidenhood to the elders of the city at the gate. 16And the girl’s father shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man as wife, and he hates her. 17And see, he has made abusive charges against her, saying, "I did not find your daughter a maiden," and yet these are the proofs of my daughter’s maidenhood.’ And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. 18And the elders of that city shall take that man and punish him, 19and fine him one hundred pieces of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought an evil name on a maiden of Yisra’el. And she is to be his wife, he is not allowed to put her away all his days. 20But if the matter is true, that the girl was not found a maiden, 21then they shall bring out the girl to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done wickedness in Yisra’el, to whore in her father’s house. Thus you shall purge the evil from your midst. 22When a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman. Thus you shall purge the evil from Yisra’el. 23When a girl who is a maiden is engaged to a husband, and a man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and shall stone them to death with stones, the girl because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he has humbled his neighbour’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from your midst."

Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes a wife and shall marry her, then it shall be, if she finds no favour in his eyes because he has found a matter of uncoveredness in her, and he shall write her a certificate of divorce, and put it in her hand, and send her out of his house..."
Offline bitnet  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:19:33 AM(UTC)
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120


Well, there were no witnesses to accuse Miryam according to Torah, and Yahusef certainly was not going to be the plaintiff. If the adulterous woman caught in flagrante delicto managed to be excused, then this would be less of a challenge (even though the pregnancy was obvious) as Miryam's husband certainly did not hate her. Case closed. Thanks very much shalom82 and Matthew for your contributions as it shows how merciful Abba Yahweh is through His Torah.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Yahshuaslavejeff  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, September 10, 2008 9:32:09 AM(UTC)
Joined: 5/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Israel / oklahoma

Given that it may or may not have been originally in the Book,
and that man/religion has mis-used , mis-interpreted, mis-guided the multitudes on purpose with twistings and outright lies (super-abounding lies),
a year or two ago, maybe three, I saw a simple description of what Yahshua did by writing in the dirt at that time - it was a common practice and the meaning fully known.
now I can't yet find the site again.... still searching, casually, for a time anyway...
Offline grademacher  
#5 Posted : Saturday, February 13, 2016 1:36:37 PM(UTC)
Joined: 2/11/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1
United States
Location: Bothell WA

The situation made more sense when I heard this verse out of Hosea 4...

14 "I will not punish your daughters when they play the whore,
nor your brides when they commit adultery;
for the men themselves go aside with prostitutes
and sacrifice with cult prostitutes,
and a people without understanding shall come to ruin."

Just maybe Yahshua was quoting Hosea in the dirt...
Offline James  
#6 Posted : Saturday, February 13, 2016 1:57:42 PM(UTC)
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,558
Location: Texas

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The fact that the story is absent from every single manuscript prior to the 4th century means it never happened. It was added later by religious copyeditors.

The oldest text skip right over it with nothing missing in between. This is 100% a case of man adding what man wants. There is no point in analyzing or trying to make this fit towrah, it is as irrelivant as anything else man says.

The only real use of discussing this story is to show the inaccuracy of the Greek text and modern translations.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
thanks 1 user thanked James for this useful post.
matt on 4/14/2016(UTC)
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