Let me start by saying that I am not an atheist, not by a long shot. I -know- God exists and I talk to him regularly, asking for guidance, strenght and mercy, but most importantly, giving thanks to this wonderful gift that he has given me, called existance. This is extremely important to me. Religion being the field of philosophy dealing with the salvation of the soul, it is something that occupies a great deal of my thoughts. As your Bible would say, "What profits a man that gains the world, but loses his soul?"

That being said, I have trouble accepting the Judeo-Christian understanding of God, and the Bible as inspired scripture (meaning, having an entirely accurate depiction of God, since in principle you could say all texts are inspired by God and reflect his nature to some extent). I looked at religions in general, and I have to say that if any one of the established religions (including the humanistic ones) is true, it has to be christianity. It is clearly the most sensible and rational of them all.

However, there are some things that hold me back from accepting the judeo-christian "version" of God as true. I trust God and can accept that some things are beyond our understanding, and for which trust is necessary, but it seems arbitrary for me to say that these things that don't make much sense to me should fall into that category. For all I know, God has inspired no one scripture, and is asking us to trust his everyday word, that which he tells everyone, every day of their lives through the nature of the universe.

I want to know God better. Will you help me?

Welcome to the forum Andre!

Yahuweh (which means I Exist) is central to understanding our existence. The book Yada Yahweh by Yada goes into great depth to explain who we are, why are we here and all about God's existence and how His Word proves His existence. Yada (Yada) also uses science to prove God's existence. The book The Owners Manual will reveal to you the relationship with the Old Covenant and Renewed Covenant, what you call the Judeo-Christian understanding of God.

Read the thread http://www.yadanews.com/...egorising-the-Torah.aspx especially where I have quote what kp (Ken Power, author of The Owners Manual) said to me regarding how to understand the Torah from the perspective of a believer this side of the crucifixion.

Both the authors delve into the original Hebrew and Greek Scriptures to bypass translation errors in current English version. Their online books are also provided free, something very rare in today's Christian world.

I hope my brothers and sisters in Messiah Yahushua will add extra to this thread because we have all come from a similar experience, knowing that God exists but a wanting to know more, a deep to desire to know the Truth, to know Yahuweh!

I've read much of Yada Yahweh, as well as some other linked texts ("Future History" and "The Owner's Manual"). I've also read all of Prophet of Doom, it doesn't go into a huge deal of detail relating to this (other than providing reasons to not trust Allah), but it does cointain some interesting insights. My problem is that much of it takes for granted that the Bible, properly understood, cointains -the- truth about God. Other than its internal coherence, little attention seems to be given to the question of "Why should we trust this book to reveal God's nature to us?".

The main argument seems to be that the prophecies were fulfilled, which could only happen if the Bible was written by God. When I look at it though, I'm not particularly convinced. They often seem vague prophecies, that could be manipulated a million ways to fit a million different outcomes. If we look at more contemporary collections of prophesies, we can see just how easy it can be to "predict" history. Especially the prophecies concerning Jesus (sorry, I'm not good at remembering the proper name, but I think Jesus is a reasonable latinization of it) seem to ignore that a man with access to the old testament and a messiah complex would be driven to match his behaviour and his words to such a text, particularly its prophecies. When we look at cults all over the world, many of which are transparently false (Islam included, but far from the only), we see that people are far too willing to give their lives in testament to false Gods. Perhaps the "My God, My God, Why have You forsaken Me?" should be taken literaly, as the last words of a man that realized too late that he was deluding himself. So the main argument in favour of the truth of the life and resurection of Jesus (that his followers were so certain of God's salvation that they were willing to be crucified for providing testimony of it) isn't quite as strong as it would seem at first glance.

I'm reminded that, according to the Bible, Jesus had to appear in flesh and blood before his closest followers before they could believe, accept, truly trust that he had been brought back to life. It seems the Bible acknowledges that true faith can't be blind. Yet I'm asked to have a deeper faith in Jesus than those that actually lived by his side while he was a human being. "Blessed are those that don't see, yet believe". I don't think it says "Cursed are those that have not seen, and so don't believe." If God hasn't seen fit to show me that this is the truth, why should I believe it?

I trust God, but why should I trust the Bible to tell me about him? Surely God has not abandoned all the millions that lived without ever having the chance to look at one, or hear the name of Jesus.

Shalom,

Welcome andregsanchez! It is reasonable to have doubts... in fact, it is almost required of you to enquire and keep on enquiring. That is the only way we can get to the message of our Creator, Elohim Yahweh, behaving like a child who keeps asking the father about everything and trusting the answers received. For too long people have been guilty of deceiving themselves and their children. Think of it... how can all religions lead to Him if each religion takes their believers away from Him by virtue of their teachings? No, there can only be one path, one road, one way.

In your quest -- yes, this is now your personal quest -- you have to ask where in the world has the Creator revealed Himself in person. Almost every religion seem to acknowledge a higher authority but none of their writings claim that He visited in person for the purpose of building a relationship with His creation. None except the Scriptures that He inspired and made happen. You may think that it is too vague but many mathematicians have calculated the near impossibilities of things happening the way prophecies have been written, so much so that theologians have become apologists and invent all sorts of dispensations and theories about who wrote what when instead of acknowledging that things were recorded as history progressed.

You claim that you want to know the Creator better, and now it is incumbent upon yourself to seek continuously till you get the answers that satisfy. The Judeo-Christian writings that you refer to are known as Scripture to us in this forum, and is spiritual food. To those who want to know Him, we can know Him through the Word. In John 1 we read that:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with Elohim.
Joh 1:3 All came to be through Him,1 and without Him not even one came to be that came to be.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from Elohim, whose name was Yoḥanan.
Joh 1:7 This one came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but that he might bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light, which enlightens every man, coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of Elohim, to those believing in His Name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the desire of flesh nor of the desire of man, but of Elohim.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and pitched His tent among us, and we saw His esteem, esteem as of an only brought-forth of a father, complete in favour and truth.

Through Scripture we can learn about our Creator and His purpose for us. We can learn His principles for living, and His laws on governance. We can see His love for us through His creation and daily provision and through His Sacrifice, and His intention to one day reveal Himself to us as our rightful King. We can learn that we are like caterpillars waiting to bloom into butterflies and move in additional dimensions. We can also disbelieve everything and He will also make that part come true.

Through His faithful scribes here, He has given clarity to all that He has conveyed through His Scripture. Our task here is to understand, accept and run with the Message to reveal Him as best as we can to those whom He has called. Again, many are called but few are chosen so we need not bang our heads too hard to convince everyone to accept the Message. But spread the Message we must, as we need to find each other to come together to form the Set-Apart tabernacle of the Ekklesia in which our personal bodies become as building blocks built upon the cornerstone that is Messiyah Yahushua.

The structure that we have here is unlike that practiced in most religions... our head is Messiyah Yahushua and we do not report to a priest, bishop or pope. Our brethren here each have gifts that are being used to the best of our abilities to draw others unto the Creator Elohim Yahweh, even as we try to sort ourselves out to live according to His Word. As we go along, we grow and we form relationships with each other. We rely on Father Yahweh to sustain us just as we strive to love each other and support each other. Not all of those whom He has called are here, and there are many outside of this forum whom we shall seek and unite with eventually. There will be differences in the levels of understanding of certain teachings but the basics are the same. It shall be His love that binds us together despite our human foibles.

And it is precisely His Love that shall be revealed to all in a couple of decades despite humanity's best attempts to deny Him access to His creation. Instead of letting humans destroy each other and the earth, He shall intervene to save us from ourselves. But woe to those who try to thwart His plan. This is what we reveal: His Salvation and His Kingdom which is to come. You can believe this or choose to believe that He created us and left us to fend for ourselves without proper guidance... which would not be the mark of a good Creator. The time has now come for everything to be revealed but only those with a yen for Truth shall see it. Unlearn everything and relearn all anew from here on. We hope that in your quest you shall come to the same conclusion, and starting point.

Can you be more specific? I'm sure a lot of the Bible is accurate, including much of its teological elements, but especially the historical elements. Then again, if I open up an encyclopedia, much of it is also accurate. It does not make it inspired scripture. What of the Bible tells you that it is the truth, whose writing was inspired by God?




Can you explain to me what this carnal nature is, and how it is opposed to God? Ultimately, there is no such thing as the flesh in some special way, as the flesh is the word of God, because everything is the word of God. Jesus was (if we assume scripture to be accurate at least with regards to this) born in the flesh, he lived in the flesh without sin, and he was reborn in the flesh, and that is the promise that is made to man, that he also can be reborn, not as disemboyed spirit, a ghost, but in flesh and bone, that man will inherit the earth and live in it, forever, as those who refuse the salvation of God are removed from it and taken to a place of separation from us and from God, to hell.




Yes, it's a good one too.




That is one of those things that hold me back. How can the spirit of God be removed -from- God?




That assumes Yahushua was the "son of God", and not simply another man. It may very well be a correct assumption, but my question is, why do you think this is so? It seems perfectly reasonable to assume he was merely one of the many men that have existed on this earth with a Messiah complex, which is how many of his contemporaries regarded him, and the reason why he was killed, in accordance with jewish law, which if we are to believe him, is what Yahushua came to fulfill. He was crucified because many were not convinced of his divinity. Why are you convinced? And why are you convinced that the Bible accurately depicts this divinity?

Shalom,

When we humans separated ourselves from Him, we separated ourselves from Truth. We did it to ourselves and to our generations. That is why we are in the sorry state we are in today. Despite breaking the yoke of slavery and bringing them out of Mitsrayim (Egypt) even ancient Yisra'el pushed Him away and sought an earthly king of their own, and He complied with that also. The world today is the result of this separation. We wanted Him to stay out, and He did. And yet we blame Him when things don't go our way. And still He came to redeem us despite this separation. He made a way for those who would seek Him to find Him. That is what the Scripture is about in a nutshell. He is not about to force Himself upon this world -- yet. Until we are about to annihilate everything around us will He then step in to save us from ourselves. Meanwhile Scripture also shows us how to live according to His Way. And it is not burdensome. In fact, it is a lot lighter than the yokes put on men by men. Seek, and you shall find. Knock, and it shall be answered. But turn away and there shall be no answers. For many are called and few are chosen.

I would be interested to know where this statistic could possibly come from.




It's certainly possible. From what I remember of the story of his birth, it seems pretty clear that his parents filled his head with the idea that he was the Messiah, and while not everyone was interested in accepting him as such (clearly), I am sure there was a deep longing among people for it. People cooperate with madmen all the time. You can find about a billion cults alive today, from those of people claiming to speak with aliens, to those of people who claim to be the Messiah. It happens. People take their own lives for these blatantly false religions.




Not necessarily. If Satan tells a truth, is he to be trusted?




Absolutely all of that could be the result of having lived his whole life studying scripture, and of his (non-virgin, non-deity) parents having inculcated in him the belief that he was the Messiah. If scripture is to be believed, assuming I remember it correctly, his parents were convinced he was the Messiah before he was even born. Perhaps they were the origin of his Messiah complex. It seems much more plausible than to think that he was God.




There are plenty of false religions who survive the test of time. Why some last and others don't, I don't know. Perhaps the charisma of Jesus was much more powerful than that of any other.




That is exactly how I feel. I do not claim to have intimate knowledge of God's nature, complete with the answers to all of our problems, but I know he exists. My fear is of puting the Bible, or any other book considered as holy, between myself and God. Of making lies my refuge, and falsehood my hiding place.

The figure comes from Professor Emeritus of Science, Westmont College, Peter Stoner, verified by 12 classes (over 600 students) and the American Scientific Affiliation. I will admit that Westmont is a Christian college and that the ASA is a christian organization, but having looked at the numbers I do not think that their numbers are affected by agenda. For one thing Westmont is ranked #106 in the US News & World Report "America's Best Colleges 2008" list of liberal arts colleges. That number may not seem all that impressive, but when you realize just how many colleges and universities there are in this country...the credibilty factor starts to go up. (there are 2618 4 year public and private universities according to a figure from 2005). I would add that Stoner himself put very conservative constraints on the probability factors. I still think however that we are missing the point. What we have been talking about is the chances of one man fulfilling a mere 48 prophecies through coincidence, design, help from family, friends, and the civil and religious authorities, and having the good fortune to be born in the proper time frame is

1 in 10^157, or 1 in

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000, 000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 10^79.

I don't know, maybe the numbers are off, but who am I to say that a number that has been verified by more than 600 people with a lot more understanding of scientific probability are wrong or lying. Even if they are wrong...by how much? Maybe take off 20, 30 or for that matter 100 zeros...at a certain point when does the number of zeros not really matter...


You said:


Where do we even get the concept of an adversary? That would be in the scriptures. I myself don't particularly get from nature or my surroundings that there are principalities and spiritual forces at work.

In all honesty, I am not all that big on the statistics. I don't particularly need them. They are a comfort I suppose, but when you look at other world religions, in ancient or modern form, you do truly see that the Tanakh is the only credible choice as revelation. It becomes clear that Tanakh is God's book about man and not man's book about God. I know there's really no true substance in what I have said, as far as proof. It is just one man's word. I have however studied ancient Greek and Roman pantheonism extensively...in a former life....jk, and I trust Yada's and other's scholarship when it comes to Islam...which in all reality is not even what it is as advertised. It is a monotheistic paganism that has more in common with Hellenic water nymphs and Iupiter than it does the God of Israel. I am talking about the arbitrary, unreasonable, selfish, and unconstrained nature that Allah shares with paganish gods. I have spent time in China and seen folk religion, taoism, and buddhism up close an personal...though I don't claim to be an expert on these religions, I do know that I don't believe that a cancer has the moral equivalancy of the doctor who cut it out or that a greedy glutton was smacked up on a wall by a desperate housewife and therefore became the god of the kitchen and cookery. When I read the scriptures I read a cogent, reasoned, synergistic work that has been more deftly woven together than a spider's web. Humanity has not been able to match it in inumerable attempts. That is my humble opinion...nothing more...but in all honesty, all the evidence taken together is more than sufficient for me.

Shalom

I don't know. Islam would not exist, for one.




Actually, he thought he was possessed by a demon. Judging by his life (and death), I bet his first impression never left him, despite his rethoric.




Yes, and anyone who put Muhammad between them and the one, true God, did precisely the opposite of what my approach is. Without followers Muhammad was just the town lunatic, harmless.




Yes. Nearly the whole of the Bible is composed in precisely this manner. As far as I know, the only part of the Bible that jews and/or christians believe has been written by God as opposed to man is about 10 lines long, and written in stone. Of course, you believe these particular writings were inspired by the spirit of God, and in many cases the testimony of God's own words, but then again, muslims believe the Quran was written by God in spirit form before the world was created and Muhammad was just the one who recited it for them.




They still do, don't they? But they also claimed to have their scriptures, or some other form of revelation from God, that they placed between the people and God. They claimed to be the bridge between God and the people. it is how all false Gods are created. Some are more credible than others, but then again, some movies are better made than others.




The universe around us is absolute, something that we all share. God gave us reason, the ability to judge. Exercising judgement is not an arbitrary activity.

For example, Islam is transparently false because it is based on the idea that human beings were created to be the slaves of God. For God to create slaves would be insane, because the slaves need him, but he does not need the slaves. God would be enslaving himself to humanity for the purpose of having slaves... yea, not likely.

The only reason I can think of for God to have created man, is love. It is one of the reasons why I have not dismissed the Bible as a way to get closer to God, because much of it makes sense. Some of it however, doesn't, at least not to me. For example, I cannot understand how God could separate his spirit from himself. For that matter, I have trouble understanding how God could separate his spirit from -anything- that exists. I have trouble making sense of the concept of the trinity. When I read such things, they strike me as nothing more than word play, poetry.




That is fine for us now, but what of the ancient chinese? Does God care more for modern day americans than for the people of ancient China?




I'm here, am I not? The judeo-christian scripture is clearly much superior to all the others I know. I have trouble with certain things however, which make me inclined to take the Bible as merely reflecting one part of the truth that is God. I do believe God inspired the Bible, as well as the Quran, not to mention the evening news. But they are inspired to reflect different things, to show us the one truth in a different way.

Homosexuality for example is one of the things in the Bible I have trouble with. I am not a fan of it, and regard it as a psychological disease most often the result of childhood sexual abuse (I've heard too many homosexuals admit to it to think otherwise). I cannot see however, why it would be deserving of death. It has death attached to it by the fact that reproduction is impossible through it, but then again, so does celibacy.




Everytime I open my eyes I have a direct revelation from the Creator Himself. There is no other source of light, all that I see is revealed to me by him. This I know for a fact.




In what way do you manage to have a different degree of certainty of scripture?

andrergsanchez writes,

How could that possibly be true? They contradict each other at every turn. The "God" portrayed in the Quran is nothing like the God revealed in the Bible. Their stated agendas are polar opposites. Even a cursory comparison of the Islamic and Judeo/Christian scriptures demonstrates this to be true, and the closer one looks, the more obvious it gets.



As I point out in The Owner's Manual, Yahweh assigns death to activities (like murder, adultery, homosexuality, or cursing one's parents) that are symbolic of the destruction of the relationship between God and man, one way or another. Murder is a picture of abridging someone's ability to choose---specifically, to choose to love Yahweh. Adultery is a metaphor for giving the love due to Yahweh to someone else, a false god. Homosexuality is a symbol of a refusal to be fruitful according to Yahweh's pattern of creation. Cursing one's parents is a picture of attacking or trivializing God. A life of celibacy, by the way, is not Yahweh's pattern. that's a pagan myth that was foisted upon the Catholic priesthood. Even Paul, a lifelong bachelor, recognizes it as an abberation, something a Christian should not attempt unless specially gifted for it.

I'm sorry if you don't agree with Yahweh, but that's your problem, not His. He has given you the freedom to choose to reject His word if you want to, and remarkably, He won't even go out of His way to punish you unless you attempt to prevent other people from following Him. But make no mistake: He won't chase you and beg you to love Him; He'll only invite you to the party, pay your admission, and provide you the official tee-shirt that says "Saved by the blood of Yahshua" on it. It's up to you to show up.

kp

KP is indeed right, that the sins listed were and are symbolic of greater truths, but I know from what he has said in the past on this forum and from what he writes in ToM, that sins are judged by 2 standards...the temporal and the eternal. With the eternal truth that the sin represents there is also a temporal reality within that sin. I would say this and I believe that the scriptures justify this statement: It is not the act of a sin that damns us. We all have sinned and fallen short of glory of YHWH. Even grievious sin is not automatic disqualification. It is not the sin, but the spirit of the sin. I can murder and not have the spirit of a murderer or commit adultery and not have the spirit of an adulterer. The desire to practice, acquiesence to/acceptance of, and justification of sin is tantamount to telling YHWH to get lost. The love of YHWH is absent in such a person. Repentance of the mouth is mere hypocrisy without repentance of the life. YHWH has given us instruction/teaching/advice/law to live our lives by. We brush it aside and make light of it at our own peril. Such actions over the long haul and such a life is the evidence of willful separation and contempt for the Creator. And indeed, why criminalize bad behavior...with the death penalty...no less. Leaven is a term often discussed in the Tanakh and in the Besorim/Letters. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. I think we have plenty of evidence from the scriptures that this is completely true. Tolerance of sin begets more sin. Tolerance of sin corrupts the message. All this leads to is separation. We have ancient Israel as an example and is not western civ's liberality not proving to be it's downfall? It seems that Europe can't even stomach itself enough to warrant their own survival....let alone resist evil...and America is not far behind. The purging of sin/evil from the body is the farthest thing from unmerciful. The seemingly severe chastisement of Israel by YHWH was infact an act of mercy and love...the removal of the wicked and the corrupters from those that were being enticed, led astray, and separated from their Creator. These so called "severe" acts were manifested because of YHWH's loving kindness and desire to bring people back on to the path of relationship/communion/fellowship with Him. I know that I am missing some parts to this message. I know that I have not explained everything, but I really ought to be in bed and I am afraid to turn to rambling.

On the issue of Yahushua talking about hating family and one's own life, let's not forget to take things completely in perspective. First off, Yahushua must be taken in the complete context. Did he not criticize the pharisees for their enullment of Torah for the sake of tradition on the very issue of honoring one's father and mother? Secondly, 1st century Hebraism must be taken into account, Thirdly, can we give Yahushua a little leeway even in our own modern mindsets, that even a great love and devotion for family must seem like hate when compared to love and devotion for Him. What should you love more? The giver or the gift?

Lastly, there is something that needs addressing. In one of your ealier posts you said that trinitarianism doesn't make sense to you. Well that's good. Because that's not what the scriptures teach and that's not what we espouse. You will find a lot of discrepancies and disagreements when it comes to the church and the scriptures that it claims to uphold.

I want to bring up a little ditty that I read. There was a team of scientists that were studying rats and their will to survive in different situations. In one test they put a rat in a container filled with water that it could not escape and put the rat in a pitch black room. The rat swam for 3 minutes before it gave up. They then took a rat and put it in the same inescapable container filled with water but this time put a rat in a room that had a bright light concentrating on the rat. It swam for several hours...the number escapes me...but it was an astonishing amount of time. This brings us to our last issue. I think that andre, only one thing can be said about your position on the anhilation of the soul compared to eternal separation from YHWH. It's an abberation. Your logic is far removed from the scope of reasoning of anyone be they religious, non religious, believing, non believing that I have ever put the question to. I have frequently asked this question in the form of a hypothetical to friends, family, strangers, acquaintances, and even if they don't believe in the scenario as reality...they would all much rather die completely than exist in eternal torment. Since you came to the forum and espoused this position I have asked this question more frequently and I have yet to get an answer that was in agreement with your thinking. All would prefer Paradise over anything else, and death over an eternal existence of darkness, separation, and irrelevence. That is how I posed the question as well. No burning fire or pitchforks or vomit or anything else. Imagine an existence stripped and completely devoid of hope...no proverbial light at the end of the tunnel...true darkness. Imagine an accute, unmellowing eternal realization of that state of existence...that complete darkness...one which was inescapable no matter how you wearied of it....for eternity. I am not here to convince you, it seems like you are beyond convincing on this issue...but at least examine...how if you believe in God's appeal to man through his nature and surroundings (which I do believe in too to a cautious degree)....why it is that your nature (on this specific issue) is so out of sync with the great and broad majority of people. And yes yes...I know all about the way being broad and all that. But this is tied to sensory perception...one of the few things that human nature often gets right. A miserable few people mistake pain/discomfort for pleasure or percieve pain/discomfort as pleasure. At the end of the day...you can believe what you want to believe and think what you want to think in the end. Nobody can stop you from that.

I don't honestly think that worship of death has anything to do with people's drothers about their status in eternity. Almost everyone if only in the hypothetical prefer eternal life. I would not even call the anguish of separation life...it may be a state of existence or being...but it is far removed from the term, life. The standards of eternity are not decided by man but rather YHWH gives in the scriptures (that are your burden to either accept or cast aside). He meets his own conditions...He is on his own side. Man throws his life away because of vanity to a degree...yes...also choosing somebody else to trust in (both the adversary and in their own selves)...and YHWH does indeed show in his address to Adam that death is the wage of his sin. "For dust you are, and to dust you return.” It does not say that, "This is the greatest of all punishment" and it does speak to the fact that there is another designation...namely death...other than eternal fellowship or eternal separation. If this is a stumbling block to you...due to your distaste of the "3rd door" Then you will have to come to terms with what you shall do about it. Is it also vanity then to say that I would rather live in complete relationship/fellowship/communion with YHWH for eternity rather than dissipate or go to "hell"? Sorry, but that is utter nonesense...there is nothing vane about that statement. Is it vane to say that I would rather have a bottle in me than a frontal lobotamy?

As to the question you posed...it's unanswerable. Death is nothingness...it's not even separation. You cannot be separated if you do not exist. You are neither close to nor far off. It's apples and oranges.

YHWH is fair...and appropriate in all ways. Trust in Him...trust in the absolute and the eternal...in relation to him...and be born anew from above

trust in the world...in things that rot and fall away...and expect the same to happen to you

get in league with the eternally separated and work for the adversary...and you shall spend time with those who you knew best

To not exist is not "eternal punishment".

Being in a concious state for eternity, without the presence of Yah (which is something the world does not understand yet) is like taking the air away, or other things required for life. You will know that you are away from the Father, in complete darkness (as He is light). A place where He will never enter, but a place you will be eternaly. Thats not good. On the other side you have non-existance, a state where you simple arnt. You know no pain, suffering or anything because where you once were you arnt.

Choosing one or the other, I still side with not existing. To know that I offened my Father with my rediculously human fleshy sinfullness hurts enough already, but to sit for eternity knowing that I can't put it right again and that I ended up here because of what I had done (namely deciving people into believing lies about Yah) I would be looking for ways to end my eternal existance... unfortunatly suicide is not possible in hell.

To not exist is not seperation, seperation takes 2. To be seperated you have to be removed from each other. For one party to not exist isnt seperation. If my wife did not exist, we would not be seperated - because she was never there in the first place.



yea - thats driving us all crazy at the moment lol - they were recently updated, and seem to not like to keep us logged in...

You can write in notepad or word and then paste it back in - thats what some people are doing :)

To not exist is to be set apart from that which does exist. It is in fact, the only means by which you can be set apart from it. All that exists, does so in God, because God is the only source of existance. Nothingness, which is death, is the precise opposite of God. To be placed in hell is still to be placed in the arms of God, because he is the one that creates hell and sustains your existance in it. To be displaced from existance, to be taken out of it and into nothing, that is death and it is the ultimate separation from God.

The "trinity" may be an incorrect term, but it does describe what it is that I don't understand. It's not so much the specifics of it, but the separateness. Jesus (I'm sorry, all the hebrew names that are similar leave me confused so I'll just use the latin one) being God, yet being separate from God is confusing to me. His sacrifice is even more confusing. The idea of God's spirit being removed from God seems alien, poetic but meaningless. Can you help me understand it?

Can you tell me why?

Because you can not take the life of something eternal.

If you are in hell you have to have passed critiria according to the picture that scripture displays, the same way as you have to, to get in to heaven.

The Human soul is not eternal on its own, as Yah has said - it can be destroyed.

Now we all know that to enter heaven, you have to be in relationship with Yah. Heaven isnt the prize, He is. Heaven is actually more of a side effect of the relationship with Yah. If you side with Yah you go where He is. The ability to enter the eternal comes from the gift that is the spirit. Your soul takes on the ability to become eternal when it is completed with the spirit.

Hell is the same, but for the other side.

The only thing that changes is the spirit. If you bind yourself to Yah, the spirit is His Set Apart Spirit. But likewise you can bind yourself to Satan. This is why non-existance waits for so many, because they dont choose.

Now binding yourself to satan makes you eternal, but with that you can not be destroyed, so you share the same fate he has.

Satan can't be destroyed, angels can't be destroyed because they were made in the eternal, they are spirit, they arnt equiped the same way we are. Thats why the only way to deal with Satan is to in-prison him in "hell". Thats why Hell was made.

Suicide is impossible because you can't destory the eternal, the spirit in which you are aligned to. The only chance at being wiped out you have, is the path that most of the world has chosen, and thats to not choose.

What you are telling me, if I understand you correctly, is that you follow a polytheistic religion in which there is a good God (Yahweh), and a bad God (Satan). Yahweh is the father-God, like Zeus, and Satan is the rebellious son-God which seeks to become the father himself. Since they are both Gods, they cannot destroy each other, so each has retreated to his own kingdom and built a wall between them. Man stands in the middle of the two kingdoms, and both Yahweh and Satan are calling out for him to join them. If you do not pick one, neither will sustain your life and you will die. Then you tell me that Yahweh is badmouthing Satan's kingdom, trying to scare us out of it. At the same time, Satan is telling us his kingdom is a garden full of virgins and rivers flowing with wine and milk. Yahweh also tells us Satan was given dominion over the earth, but that he will eventually come back and reconquer it. That does not strike me as monotheism, despite your claims to the contrary. Please do not be angered, I'm merely pointing out how the way you explain this, makes me more confused and unwilling to accept this as something other than idolatry than I already am.

Shalom All,

After following this thread, and also getting involved in it earlier, I am amazed at the patience of my brethren here. This forum is to discuss Yada Yahweh, a discourse on the Scriptures. It is also a platform for us to get to know each other better and to form relationship with each other even as we seek to firm up our relationship with our Creator. Andrergsanchez here does not believe in the Scriptures, does not read it, nor hold it with the same reverence that we do. He does not even read the books on YY in relation to Scripture and yet we try to enter into discussion with him. I am not saying that we should not engage but in all reality we are trying to explain each tree in the forest to a person who should actually be looking for a way out of the forest that he does not even realize that he is lost in. He has a strange way of turning statements upside down and inside out and thwarting logic with a warped sense of innocence. Personally, I think if andrergsanchez is truthful in his approach he would at least read and try to understand all the writings here and read the Scriptures with a proper perspective. In his opinion it seems that nothing should be between him and the Creator, not even the words of the Creator. This, I'm afraid, is warped thinking, and it is pointless to show the difference between each tree in the forest when the person refuses to even acknowledge forest. I'm sorry for being blunt and I'm probably going to be accused of being impatient and politically incorrect etc. but I have had my fair share of experiences. Let him read and decide. That's all there is to it. One step at a time. One thought at a time, one decision at a time. If the Set-apart Spirit is not present nothing written shall matter because it is only with the presence of the Set-Apart Spirit that men shall know things of Abba Yahweh. Be that as it may, I shall be only too pleased to contribute again if there is some effort made at reading the books in the right context and perspective. Meanwhile, I hope he finds what he seeks for surely that shall be it.

I have read most, though I will admit I may have missed parts of them between readings. Some parts I have read several times. It is the reason I am here!




Nothing of your post is new to me, or answers my questions. Let's try something else. Tell me which of these statements you believe is false.

-Nothing exists without the consent of a God. Gods are the only source of life (even if only one exists, or can exist). The term life is being used strictly in its literal meaning, which is existance.

-For someone to live forever (in heaven OR hell, or for that matter, in New York or Neptune) he must receive their life from a God. No creature of a God can give this life.

-If Satan lives forever in hell, he must receive HIS life from a God (even if he is the God in the question).

-For a God to create a being that is independent of him, that does not need his nourishment, is for a God to create another God.

-If a God cannot, as opposed to will not, remove life from Satan, Satan is a God.

-If the reason people live forever in hell (including Satan) is because they receive their immortality from Satan, then he is a God.

Sheding the idea that Satan is merely a rebellious angel, as opposed to another God, means things make much more sense. The pieces don't seem to fit otherwise. His rebellion ceases to be a strange and foolish act, to become an understandable, if still foolish act. Of course, it also makes the story automatically false, because there can only be one, true God. Perhaps the story is inspired by an actual angelic conflict, of two angels who practice self-idolatry and fail to realize they are not God, yet are tolerated by God. But then I could never take the scripture any more seriously than the Quran, or for that matter, the ancient myths of Greece and Rome and Carthage.

Shabbat Shalom,

This is meant for andrergsanchez. All quotes are his.



I do not aim to be the one to enlighten you. That is not my job. I can only share with you some thoughts, experiences and reflections of what I have learnt. It is Yahweh who does the calling and the enlightening in depth. If you think that you need to find the answers elsewhere there is nothing that shall stop you. I, too, seek to learn as much as I can, and not just from this site. His Truth is bigger than all of us. But I know what I seek and I recognise His voice through His Word. How would you?



Therein lies your problem. You do not seem to seek enlightenment. You seem to have a preconceived idea of who Creator is, and you are looking for proof of such. If you truly seek the Creator, then look for His Word. Through His Word you shall find life. But if you are not prepared to unlearn then the learning stops.



Beware, for the adversary himself transforms into an angel of light to deceive the world. So what is your "fact" if you cannot prove it?



So what are you looking for? What is your point then?



Perhaps this is how Islam started. A direct revelation. A belief that slowly transmuted itself into something that assumed a mantle of truth because of an unwillingness to belief that which was written before. So despite what you said that Islam would not have started, this is how it started.



And eventually he thought it was his god. And he shared it with others. And they believed him. And today the world is as it is. Are you any different seeking direct revelation if you are unable to discern who God is? If you have no basis for his existence other than the trees, animals and stars? The animistic religions think as such so what makes you different?



If you continue to lump contemporary collections together with Scripture, what do you think you can find in Scripture that shall make you change your thoughts?



Who says that they are abandoned? And what makes you think that they all need to hear the name of Jesus?

(Mat 12:38) Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from You.”

(Mat 12:39) But He answering, said to them, “A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Yonah.

(Mat 12:40) “For as Yonah was three days and three nights in the stomach of the great fish, so shall the Son of Adam be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

You do not have to believe this, of course, if it was just the statement of a man with a messianic complex that was further boosted by his relatives and friends to fulfill the scores of prophecies, which "could be manipulated to fit a million different outcomes," as you stated,



Sure they do. People are guilty of many things. But how do you know that the religions are blatantly false? What is your yardstick?



Who told you that god is a trinity? Where did you get that idea?



Do you really expect to know the full extent of the power of the Creator? Probably not. But yet you deny Him and limit Him by hinting that God cannot do certain things because you cannot understand certain things. Your approach should be to find out what He wants from you, not the extent of His power as He has revealed according to your perception.



Does it remain symbolic when they actually do behave in such a way?



Putting your intellect in the way is idolatry! So how do you resolve this as we all need to think with what we have?

Perhaps it would be better if you shared your thoughts with us and let us see where we can help you anchor your thoughts with Scripture. Otherwise, another approach may be to "taste and see that Yahweh is good." Learn and do. Think and act. Act and think. That's how many of us "manage to have a different degree of certainty of scripture." If it does not work for you then so be it.



There was the first big clue as to why this thread dragged to this point. Remember the start of this post? I quoted you. Which is why I advised you to read YY and re-read. The answers are there. Find it. Don't dissect my words, or Robski's or Matthews or even KP's posts. It does you little good. Study the Scriptures and study all of YY which has to do with the Scriptures. Everything. Don't skip parts or you lose the plot and do yourself a disfavour. You want a shortcut? Just do it! Do not get analysis paralysis! C'mmon, the prophets wrote over hundreds of years and Yada and KP did all the recent work, all we have to do is read. Is that too hard?