Welcome to the Forum Matt (Prodigal) and Sevensup.

Hello and thanks for taking the plunge of posting to the forum Seven-Up. I sense that there are many more guests who visit and don't post than those who do. It's great to be able to ask questions to so many other's who've read and been moved by these books.

I think you also share the same plight as many others here to include myself and even Yada in having a spouse who has not made the same connections and remains more comfortable in their religious traditions. I love my lady, but realize that our convicitions will likely remain different for some time.

My best wishes to you and hope that you'll feel free to comment or question as you will.

-Theophilus

Welcome eh steve! I love Homestar Runner. Haven't been there in years. That brought a much needed smile to my face.

Hallelu Yah!

Welcome to the family, hope you enjoy.

As for the points, we've all come to the conclusion that no one here know what they are for, including the mods and admins. I like your idea, free hoodies, shirts and print outs of the book.

In my first post I said, "I'm sure I will be sharing more about myself in the future".

I just wrote and sent a letter to an old friend. He was my boss at one time and also the pastor of a "church" that I attended for a few years. Although this letter is somewhat personal, I realize that it kind of captures me as a picture might, and I feel compelled to share that note here. Just for the simple fact that it will give a you all a glimpse of who I am, seeing that we are all pretty much strangers here until we share a little of ourselves.

I did edit out, the name of the "church" and the name of the business I worked at. Not so much for my privacy but more so to not identify my friend on an internet forum without his knowledge.




Where I wrote to him that, "this will be my last unsolicited communication to you". That is in reference to the fact that I recently wrote him two other letters encouraging him to check out yadayahwey.com. I did that believing that there is some fresh vital information here that would benefit him. I have no intention of pestering him and I wanted him to know that I would not be doing that.

Hey, just a bit of an introductory post and story. Sorry if its long. You don't have to read it :P

Bio: My names Paul, I'm 19, from Australia, and have been attending a baptist church since I was around 10 when I became interested in seeking God. My mum went to church, but as a kid I went through a stage of not caring/wanting to go, so I didn't.

A few months ago now I was worried I was losing my catholic friend to islam. She goes to a catholic school, though I don't think her immediate family are really interested in knowing Yahuweh since they believe in re-incarnation and I believe they just wanted to send her to a 'good' private school in hope of a better education. Which is great, I'm not thrilled that she's catholic but simply believing in God is a massive start and a turn on for me. However, her uncle, cousins etc that she spends a lot of time with are muslim.

Had I of known what I know now, maybe things would be different. We were talking and she said she has a hard time believing that Jesus is God because He's the son of God, and we're all sons of God. Or something. And that the 'oneness' of God to her makes more sense, and she was considering converting.* I didn't know anything about islam here, all I knew is it was very far off track. She was talking about Mohummad and the koran being like Jesus and the bible... I knew she was wrong, but being ignorant of islam I didn't know what to say. At that moment, I knew I had to learn everything I could about islam. She's only 15 and I'm sure everything she knows about it is what her family has told her; and everything she knows about Catholicism is what her school has taught her.

I went to www.christianforums.com and made a thread (http://www.christianforums.com/t7453324/ if anyone was interested in reading the replies) in hope of getting answers. A user called Under_Grace sent me a link to prophet of doom which ultimately frightened me that there are so many people that follow this 'religion', though I can't say the nature of the religion came as a shock. Growing up, no one told me what god they follow, but I knew from a young age it wasn't mine. Haha, I told her both religions worship different gods (that, I knew) and she's like "There's only one God paul, of course they do. Are you saying there's more??". She's so cute haha. They musn't teach the concept of false gods in a catholic school. And that not worshipping the right one is worshipping the wrong one. Anyway, prophet of doom gave me everything I needed to know about the qur'an, Mohummad and his actions. To that, I salute Yada.

Dreading another conversation about religion, I hoped the topic would never come up again but at the same time wished it would so she wouldn't be so lost. Eventually It did, and I told her I've been studying islam for hours a day weeks on end in case this happened again. Before I could say anything else, she said she wouldn't convert because she "likes being a catholic". As strange as it sounded I was just glad to hear it I guess. We talk about God all the time, though when she' talking about pictures/statues of mary crying blood I still don't know what to say. One thing that really scared me in the first conversation though was when she said she went to mosques with her uncle and prayed to allah.. I was freaking out, but she ever so confidently said "Allah is just the arabic word for God". Once again, if I knew what I knew now... (then again we may have got in a fight haha). I remember saying something like, Allah is not the Father *her name*. She replied with, "that's not a very Christian thing to say!" LOL! Keep in mind at the time I was ignorant, this has only became funny to me now, now that I've realised it IS a Christian thing to say. If she firmly believes she's praying to God when she's in a mosque, then maybe Yahuweh wouldn't blame her for that. She's still a child, and our Dad loves children. Though she might not get away with it when she's grown up Haha.

Maybe there was something in POD that cought my eye and interested me, because I had to go and check out what yadayaweh was about. Unfortuneately I still haven't read much of it, but what I have read (bits and pieces of chapters) is amazing. Great work all round! I sent Yada an email thanking him for POD, I was really excited to see a reply from him. He also told me to write back after reading YY to see what I thought of it. So far I don't think I've read enough to make that email yet, so as of right now I'm finding the motivation to read all of it lol. I love finding out about the past, what religions have done, scripture etc and I know once I start reading I won't be able to stop, but it's the starting that I fail to do easily... Ken's "future history" is in my bookmarks to read also :P

So that's my story of finding YY.








*= It's sad that some Christian ideas or teachings like the trinity turn people off from coming to know God, instead they go off in the other direction.

Haha, it sure is! Thanks for not charging me for it by the way :P I've actually read the first chapter of The Owner's manual and really enjoyed it. It was good to learn a bit about Judaism too. Apart from not accepting Yahshua as the Messiah, I didn't really know anything about it. I like your writing style too, it's a bit similar to Yadas, and you both seem to have to the same sense of humor in your writings.

Edited by user Monday, August 2, 2010 2:21:12 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Welcome Degner :)

Hello and welcome Ernest. Arguments over the nature of God the Father in relation to the Son and set-apart Spirit have been ongoing for centuries in part because it is difficult to accurately convey just what the Scriptures say on the subject. Have you come across the illustration Yada and KP use in their writings of the sea and two buckets one frozen and shaped as a man to be solidly touched the water in the other boiled to steam to do work? That works as well as any I've encountered- but still have difficulty communicating this clearly to others.

-Theophilus

my post isnt showing in recent posts for the forum for some reason.

Thanks brother, good to be here.

Thanks flintface

I never was actually part of the WWCG but my parents left when the old man lost control. Actually my father did but he still follows some of the splinter groups, as they are called. My mom passed when I was young. Anyway I never have been a part of any church group type of place. I only studied on my own because I figured this is too important to trust to another mans interpretation. I ruled out the new bibles like the NIV etc but even the KJV was not clear. I found conflicts and knew they must either be translated wrong or not need be there at all. I had no time to learn Hebrew or Greek so I fell away from studying and was kinda at a road block to understanding the truth. I never spoke to folks about it because the few times I tried to I was accused of heresy etc. by closed minded folks. I knew enough to know I wasnt going to be one the masses that followed the blind. I got serious recently when my son was born and I was forced to make a choice at work to stand up for what I believe and not work on the Sabbath anymore for me and my wife and son. I was fired as a result of this decision. This turned out to be a blessing because it led me to opening my own business and now I can do what I need to. I have more stories but will save them for another time. Thanks again.

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post. A rather long one (for a first one), so hopefully I'll get lots of points. =)

First, a little background:

I've been "walking with" the Ruach Qodesh (if you will accept that phrasing) for over sixteen years now, and as a result have increasingly been "led away from" (by the Set-Apart Spirit, or Ruach Qodesh) the Christian religion of my parents and of my youth -- it's in the distant past now, but there has been a lot of processing necessary to understand what has changed, what was wrong, and what is right... and the processing continues!!

My experience has been that I am able to "hear" the Ruach Qodesh "speak" to me, and have been able to since I was 9 years old. However, I did not fully surrender my "self" (and choose to give up my life) to Yahuwah (YHWH), however, until I was eighteen. So I start the count of 16 years from that point of self-denial (at 18), and from my decision (at 18) to answer the call I was hearing to become a disciple.

Now, on to my reason for "taking the plunge" and posting:

I've been reading some of Yada's books (Yada Yahweh and Questioning Paul) and a little of Ken Power's book (Future History) over the past six months, and just discovered this forum today.

I've now spent the past few hours browsing some of the topics and reading some of the threads on this forum, and noticed a most "interesting" thing: that not a single dedicated topical category exists for the actual experience of knowing Yahuwah (YHWH) relationally.

I was definitely surprised by this!

I did find the single lonely thread under the Fellowship category, titled "Is the Ruach Qodesh actually active in individuals?" but I was rather disappointed by the mere 26 replies, many of which to me seemed off-topic. For a book (Yada Yahweh) and a forum (Yada Yahweh) whose shared title suggests a focus on (and potential experience of) this relational knowing, I had hoped to find more of a discussion already going on this topic...

I can understand the "safety" in discussing more intellectually-oriented things, or in claiming that knowing Yahuwah (YHWH) relationally actually comes through the study of the scriptures... just as I can understand the "danger" of subjectively discussing personal experiences with Yahuwah. But for a group of folks who seem very skilled at dissection and analysis, I would think even a topic so dangerous and potentially divisive as the activity of the Ruach Qodesh in our present-day lives, would be one worth (at least) attempting to discuss -- but so few on this forum have.

I'm not sure how to make sense of this oversight, unless it comes down to a difference of opinion in what "to know in a relational sense" means... Perhaps the consensus of the forum is that our relationship with Yahuwah (YHWH) is primarily through knowing about him via the scriptures? If so, then what about our experience with the Ruach Qodesh?

Personally (and just as one example), I think it would be very worthwhile to complile lists of what our relationship to the Ruach Qodesh is and is not (or should be and shouldn't be), even if much of that "is not" list was little more than a collection of heretical experiences that are ascribed to her. In fact, I would be keen to participate in such a discussion as would be necessary to draw up such lists, and would expect to gain a lot from it. But, alas, there is little evidence that I am on the right forum for such discussions -- despite the name "Yada Yahweh."

I could think of at least ten other (personally useful) discussions about "knowing in a relational sense," but I'm not sure what interest level all of you forum members might have in such discussions, or whether any of you would find such discussions also personally useful??

While I'm a big fan of using our intellect to work through things Yahuwah-related (and appreciate that so much of this forum seems to pursue exactly that, inasmuch as scripture is Yahuwah-related), I'm an even bigger fan of first-hand experience with this person the scriptures talk so much about.

I would really enjoy some real fellowship, with some real "fellows," if that can be found on this forum! And I wouldn't limit my definition of fellowship to narrow discussions about the Ruach Qodesh -- although that would be included!

Since I spent an hour reading through the recent "forum misbehavior" threads, I only ask that you all treat me like you would treat someone that has just come into your living room and has talked for the first time. "Hey, everybody, I'm Quester. Why aren't any of you talking about having a relationship with Yahuwah?? The sign outside says Relationship with Yahuwah. I don't get it!!"

Lastly, I'm sure there is much to gain from the topics that are being discussed on the forum, and I look forward to reading some of those. My observation, then, isn't meant to discredit what is being discussed. I'm only pointing out what isn't being discussed, and how surprising that is, considering the name of the forum...

Enough said. Looking forward to your responses.

Quester

Edited by user Tuesday, September 21, 2010 11:26:08 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Hi & Welcome Quester,

I'm pretty new here myself. I hear what you are saying and I have a suggestion. I just looked over the different sections of the forum and noticed the ...

"Nurturing and Sheltering
The maternal nature of the Set-Apart Spirit, and the Garment of Light."

...section.

Although it says there are 5 topics there right now, none are showing up for me. There are some odd glitches with the forum software here.

Anyway, I suggest that you start a topic there (hopefully it will root and be accessible) I will gladly participate as I am sure others will also.
I look forward to getting to know you as you share your insights, experiences and relationship with the Spirit.

I'm fine with addressing you as Quester, but do you have a first name we all could use? Or just stick with Quester? I might start calling you "Q" though if you don't mind.

Peace,

Steve

*edit* I posted a test thread in that section and then saw where there is a box to view older posts. It seems to be working fine. Any moderorator.... please feel free to delete that test thread. I'm going to go now and delete that post, not sure if that will delete that thread. *edit*

That is true, BR. However, in 1999 my wife and I both worked for a Jew who owned a health pill operation in Houston, Texas. The office manager was a Southern Baptist woman who was horribly offended that my wife is not only 30 years younger than I, but that she is also black. Being the godly woman that she was, when I confronted her about all the "little white lies" she was telling customers over the telephone, and about the owner claiming medical and academic credentials which he did not possess, she fired us both. When I asked her what was really going on, she told me that I should just leave and take my "moolie" with me. She also told us that she had told the owner that we hated him because he was a Jew.

The NAACP told my wife that she could own that company if she wanted to. She responded that we don't operate like that. We let it go and moved on. A few years later we learned from the UPS driver who used to deliver to that place that the State of Texas had forced them to shut down because of the owner's false claims about himself and his products. The state did not get their information from us or from anyone we know. So it became apparent to us that Yahuweh, Whose Name we did not even know in those days of cloudy Christianity, delights in avenging His children when we respond as He would have us to. We were fired for our stand on the Word of God, which is "religious" if you want to take it there. But the employer doesn't have to say that. All he had to say was that we argued with him. In the State of Texas, that is sufficient grounds for termination; the employer is not required to pay any unemployment to the discharged worker in those cases. But it didn't matter, did it? Father knows best, and no one can stop His hand.

By the way, this is the first year we are going to be celebrating Atonement and Booths. Anyone got any advice for a true newbie?

Shalom,

Richard

Hi Royce,

My experience is that I "hear" the Set-Apart Spirit with an inner ear, not audibly with my two external ears (of flesh). In fact, I've never heard an audible voice (that I thought was Yahuwah or the Spirit), although I have heard credible stories of others having an audible voice experience.

I don't really mean that I "feel an urge" or anything along the lines of feeling, when I speak of this "voice," but I do sometimes have an urge to do something that comes along with the words (that are asking or telling me) to do something.

Basically, I'm talking about clearly communicated words, phrases, sentences, and (even) paragraphs. I can (and often do) write down what I "hear."

Let me know if you want more clarification.

Q

Edited by user Tuesday, September 21, 2010 11:29:10 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Hi Steve,

Sorry, no first name is available. Definitely you may call me "Q" -- I don't mind at all.

Regarding posting a thread in the "Nurturing and Sheltering" section, thanks for your suggestion!

My only problem with starting my topical discussions there, would be that the subtitle suggests the maternal nature of the Spirit is more the specific topic intended for discussion, than is our overall practical experience with her. In other words, "Nurturing and Sheltering and Other Maternal Behavioral Patterns within the Nature of the Spirit" seems to be the intended topic.

The topics I might start would have more to do with the general experience of the Spirit in our daily lives, as an aspect of what it means to have a practical relationship with Yahuwah (YHWH). I would be less interested in a theological-type discussion of the nature of the Spirit, than I would be in a practical discussion of where-the-rubber-meets-the-road, which is to say, the Spirit's involvement in our daily lives.

Of course, many on this forum might argue that a practical discussion must first be informed by the theological-type considerations. Which is a fair argument, but I wonder whether a practical discussion will ever come!! Apparently, it hasn't yet -- I can't find the thread!!

And it seems to me that a practical discussion about the Spirit would best be filed under a topical category having to do with "relationally knowing Yahuwah." Along with other practical discussions about other aspects of such a "relational knowing." But, alas, there's no such topic.

Given the lack of options, the section you suggested may be my best one!

Q

Edited by user Tuesday, September 21, 2010 11:38:02 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

There, I answered my own question. Or, more precisely, someone named rv (who no longer participates on this forum) did. I found what he wrote somewhere else on the forum (not in this thread). Apparently, he knows Yada personally, and thus would know the idea behind the forum and its purpose.

So, if in fact the forum was originally started for the purpose of providing an opportunity for people to discuss the book, that is all well and good. But I'm still disappointed at the lack of foresight that was required to not include a category about a "relationship-based knowing" with Yahuwah. After all, the author himself (at least Yada -- there may be other authors?) claims to have such a functioning relationship. And it seems that such a "relationship-based knowing" was the overall point of the book, even if the book doesn't have a chapter specifically devoted to it (can't say, as I haven't yet read the whole book). Of course, if a "relational knowing" wasn't the point of the book, then the book was mis-titled, and this forum, by extension, is mis-titled as well.

---

There seems to be a basic difference between impractical-, conceptual-, theoretical-, theological-type discussions and practical-, rubber-meets-the-road-type discussions.

In my experience most of the people having the first set of discussions are the introverts who live in their inner worlds of concepts and ideas (already naturally as a part of their pre-disposition / personality), and are thus most confortable engaging others in ways (and on topics) that allow them to draw on that natural strength and remain in that conceptual state of mind. Extraverts, on the other hand, usually can't last more than five minutes in such conversations. "Make it practical!" they call out. "How does this apply to my life?" "Translate what you are saying into something I can do right now!"

Sometimes the introverts are able to translate their concepts to the real world, but more often than not, they aren't. Just look at most of christian doctrine (which was largely written by introverts, I'm sure), and how little practical application there is for most of it. Lots of "interesting" ideas, but not much that we need to actually do anything about. We can just believe it (or not), and be done.

In my experience as someone between the two extremes, I could attentively (and enjoyably) listen to an hour-long sermon, but if at the end there wasn't a practical, take-home type of a conclusion, I would get very frustrated. Most of the five-hundred-plus sermons I heard growing up, were NOT practical in any shape or form, and did not have a take-home "moral of the story" at the end. They were just long monologues on ideas, spoken by men who didn't even know how to make them practical.

Yahushua's words, I find, are very practical and even action-oriented (not all of them, but many of them). Yes, he spoke conceptually and in parables much of the time, but even still, I find practical advice embedded in what he said. "If anyone is going to build a tower, he should count the cost" (paraphrase). Yes, that was a concept that isn't clearly related to home or castle construction -- we'll need to think about it for a minute -- but it's got a practical point, and as soon as we figure out the context, we will be able to apply his advice. So much of the torah / tanakh is also very practical and action-oriented. And yet we somehow manage to talk about it all, rather than apply it to our lives.

There's a kind of learning that comes through experience. Try reading a comprehensive, encyclopaedia-type book all about the bicycle, without ever having ridden one yourself. Good, now proceed to instruct others on the finer points of bicycle-riding. Maybe include a few chapters in your new book on specialty disciplines within the overall sport of bicycling, such as downhill mountain biking, single-speed track riding, multi-stage endurace racing. Great, now how much actual bicycle riding experience do you have? None. But you are uniquely qualified to write about bicycles, since you did read that initial book -- even studied it in depth. Or are you qualified at all?

That's how I feel about most people who talk about "God" (or Yahuwah). They haven't a clue what they are talking about, because they don't know him personally. They've only read about him in a book, and what they read was probably mis-translated and full of errors. I'm not saying that the guy who writes about bicycles after only having studied "the bicycling bible" isn't writing true things. Much of what he writes will be technically true. But little of it will be relationally true, since his writing isn't tempered by his own real-life experience of riding bicycles for twenty-five years.

We check the credentials of an author for most non-fiction books that we consider buying, but why don't we do this for authors of religious books? "So and so studied at the Grace Bible Cemetery" (seminary) -- oh really, how is that a qualification? There isn't a "get-to-know-God program" at the cemetery.

Christianity is like a book club. Everyone gets together to discuss the book that they all have in common, but very few (if any) of them have any clue what that book is actually about, and nearly all of them do not know the author/subject of that book. Those book club members who have read other books (besides scripture) on this same subject matter (books which were written by people who likewise did not know the author/subject of the scriptures they initially read), are elevated into positions of leadership. Because, having read more books than the rest of us, they of course have become greater experts (on someone/something they have never experienced themselves). In fact, just through the reading of all those books, they have somehow (magically?) developed a relationship with someone they've never even met. It's all too amazing for the real world. It must be a fairy tale.

If all we have is a learning that comes through book-reading, our knowledge is going to be limited. We know about. We have read about. We have learned about. But we still have yet to experience. I'm certain there are people in the world who find a bicycle on the side of the road (or in their parents' garage), pick it up without any of the historical or comprehensive knowledge on how bicycles came to be, how they are designed, etc, and learn to ride it all by themselves, on their own, with no outside help. Sure, they lack a lot of really cool information on derailleur design or the history of inflatable rubber tires, but they are "out there doing it." And I've got to respect them for that.

Yes, I know a few people like this (who learned to ride, even before they had any book knowledge).

And no, there still doesn't seem to be a category on this forum specifically for talking about riding bicycles. And I brought up this point over one day ago -- how much time do people need? (just kidding)

If the topical categories on this forum accurately reflect the topics covered in the book that goes by the same name (Yada Yahweh) -- of which I can't be certain because I haven't yet read the whole book -- then the author(s) who set up the forum in the first place are to thank for that ommission (of no category in which to discuss riding bicycles), unless the book itself has no such chapter (or topic within it). Of course, if the book itself has no such chapter (or topic) having to do with an actual relationship with Yahuwah, then we have a bigger problem than a forum design oversight.

But since the forum is "user-driven," what I see being discussed on the forum is probably an accurate indication of what people themselves want to discuss. And if enough people had been talking about "Yada Yahweh, the relationship not the book," then the forum probably would have been updated to include the appropriate sub-forum for that discussion.

Whichever may be the case, I can't get around the simple fact that everyone here is apparently only interested in talking about bicycle design, the future of bicycles, Yahuwah's disdain for skateboards, bicycles in world news, and which books written about bicycles are the most authoritative, accurate, or properly translated. Which is disappointing, because I would have thought "relationally knowing" might have something to do with an actual relationship. (sarcasm)

Of course, all those other bicycle-related topics have their own relative merits and should be included in a comprehensive discussion on "all things Yahuwah" or "all things Scripture." But if I had to choose just one single topic, and was banned from discussing the others, I certainly wouldn't choose world news (which has the most posts).

Anyway, at this point I'm probably just talking to myself.

Q

Edit: I just realized that Yada does participate on this forum -- I think his handle is "Yada" and he has the power to change things... So, with this new realization (if I'm wrong, somebody please correct me!):

Administrator: please consider what I have written in this and previous posts (in this same thread). Between the four posts combined (#77, #85, #86, and this one, #87), I've made my case for a new topic / sub-forum.

Edited by user Saturday, September 18, 2010 6:55:58 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

What about the Relationship vs. Religion topic. Perhaps a thread could be started there.

Welcome to the forum Quester, you certainly have some interesting posts already, some things you say have already personally struck home for me, or at least prodded me. ;)

Thanks Quester, appreciate the answer brother.

Hello everyone, my name is Toni.

It's been three weeks since my last church service.

Three weeks is a long time and also a very short time! It's a Short time as it compares to what I see that I need to know and the panic i am feeling. A Long time as it compares to the great freedom from the "fake it till you make it" christian fellowships and all their functions, works and country club mentality.

I have always felt that I was set apart from the christian people and churches I was involved with, always feeling on the outside looking in, and wondering why anyone would want to be "in"! I've seen more than my fair share of wolves in sheeps clothing and have been the most or one of the most skeptical christians in the churches i've attended. I've seen more sin in the church, more phony balony, back biting/stabbing, cult like people worship and "look at me, look at me" & christian cliche masters programs to fill a whole page.

Let me say, I am really glad I found this forum through the Yada Yahweh page and can't seem to absorb enough of it all, fast enough to suit me. I'm just getting acquainted with the YY site and have found many threads here that I'm sure I can add to what I'm learning.

I'm looking forward to more from Questar and the proposed topic on Yada Yahweh: the relationship not the book! lol !

Hi Matthew,

Thanks for your suggestion and welcoming comments.

While I probably will start a few threads within the "Relationship vs. Religion" topic, I will explain below why I don't feel that is the ideal topic in which to start many of the threads I have in mind to start.

(What I write below is not directed at you, Matthew, but is written to further my argument that another topic/sub-forum is needed on this forum -- one that is specifically devoted to "Yada Yahweh, the Relationship, Not the Book.")

---

Firstly, the title of the topic, "Relationship vs. Religion," makes it very clear that any discussion of relationship is to be made in contrast to religion. Which is fine, because that is a VERY important distinction to make, to understand, and to discuss with others. The great deception of the christian religion is that people are put right with "God," as a result of having taken certain steps. When in fact, they still don't have a relationship with Yahuwah, and are even further from having one than when they started. I'm certainly interested in discussing this topic with all of you!

But, I also want to generally discuss having a relationship with Yahuwah, and to discuss that topic completely apart from any restriction of having to make constant comparisons (contrasts) to dead religion.

For example, I want to discuss what "relational knowing" means, and what people have (or have not) experienced along those lines. I want to discuss the difference between just knowing about something, and relationally knowing something (through experience). This last point is a contrast all of its own: "Actual Relationship vs. Merely Knowing About."

I want to discuss the fact that the English language sometimes totally gyps us on word choices. Mandarin Chinese, for example, gives its speakers (at least) two words for knowing. They have zhi-dao (knowledge about something or someone) and ren-shi (familiarity as a result of experience with something or someone). [So, if I told you that I zhi-dao Yada ("Wo zhi-dao Yada"), you could ask me whether I ren-shi him also. Then, if I told you that no, I only zhi-dao him -- that is, I've only read about him -- you would know that I have never become personally familiar with him. That is, "Wo bu ren-shi Yada."] Thus, if we were all speaking Mandarin right now, I could simply suggest that we add a topic entitled: "Zhi-dao vs. Ren-shi." Which would be easier to communicate. (But instead, it's harder.)

I also want to discuss the role of the Spirit in our daily lives (and all of our personal experiences along those lines), which isn't a topic that is always best discussed in contrast to religion. And, as I explained before, neither is this a topic that would fit neatly into "the maternal nature of the Set-Apart Spirit."


Secondly, the subtitle of the "Relationship vs. Religion" topic is: "The importance of not bowing down, of reverence instead of fear, communication vs. worship, and Yahweh’s family metaphor."

(I realize the various subtitles on the forum were probably just written up (during the forum design stage) in order to be guidelines, and in order to help people imagine what kinds of things they could be talking about within each topic, rather than as comprehensive listings of what is permissible to discuss. So, with that in mind, I don't want to go too far with my criticisms. But I'll try to go just far enough to make my point...)

"The importance of" (a) not bowing down, (b) reverence instead of fear, (c) communication vs. worship, and (d) Yahweh's family metaphor... as a subtitle, is a bit silly and limiting. To make my point by way of exaggeration:

I could post a single thread that simply states: "all of these four are VERY important. what do you guys think?"
Then, after everyone corrects me, responding with: "sorry Q -- get it straight -- all of these four are VERY VERY VERY important!" ... the sub-title has been fulfilled. We've all discussed the importance.

(Much more seriously:)

Nowhere in that sub-title do I read anything specifically about a relationship, except for the bit on "communication." But since "communication vs. worship" is suggested, I'm now straining myself to figure out how to contrast those two (and post anything intelligent enough that a discussion could result). Sure, all of the four suggestions do have a bearing on our relationship with Yahuwah, but none of them IS our relationship with Yahuwah.

For example, fear isn't conducive to trust, and relationships are based on trust (at least in part), so reverence (being the better translation) should be our attitude towards "God," rather than fear. Worship can certainly be engaged in as a distant pass-time, which isn't very indicative of a relationship, although the revelation to John seems to paint a picture of heavenly beings worshiping Yahuwah. But, you say, we humans were made to be in relationship with him. Fine. Moving on: Yahweh's family metaphor obviously implies something about families, which has a lot to do with relationships. Great.

But what about the relationship itself -- where do we discuss that?

Q

Hi Lassie,

Thanks for posting and sharing your interest in this (proposed) topic!

That's great to hear that you have "heard the Spirit in [your] head." And that she "used [your] name, and used as few words as possible to convey the message." Very similar to my experiences!

I too like "live communication," but I differ a bit on the assumption that "most of the information I need is already contained in the written Word." I feel there are too many decisions that I need to make throughout the day, for which no specific instruction or guideline exists in the scriptures. And I rather wish I could get help on those types of decisions. So I ask.

The Spirit doesn't seem to be bothered by my asking, as very often I get the feedback I had hoped for. And am then better able to make the decision I was about to make.

I'm not sure how good a translation this is, but I find (at least some) support for such an approach in Proverbs 3:5,6: "Trust in YHWH with all your heart; lean not on your own understanding. Acknowledge him in all your ways, and he will direct your paths."

I tend to think that in asking about all the "minor" decisions throughout the day, I am acknowledging. And in giving me feedback, the Spirit is directing my paths. Whereas, if I am making those various decisions on my own, apart from him (or her), then I am doing so as a result of leaning on my own understanding -- that is, "I've got this one." So, if you're following that logic, in those situations where I am not seeking direction, I am in fact not placing my trust in YHWH, but am trusting myself instead. "I've got this one."

Of course, if a scriptural mandate exists for what to do, we could just do that. But I find difficulty in applying such mandates to real life experiences, even when they do exist, and, further, I find as many as a hundred decisions each day for which I can't find a mandate. That's where I'm coming from.

Anyway, thanks for posting -- glad to hear what you think! And even more glad to hear what you have experienced!

Q

P.S. What does your username mean? You couldn't have been born in 1865, so maybe your birthday is 1-8-65. Or maybe it's numerology of some kind? Or maybe a secret code? (1=A, 8=H, 6=F, 5=E) "Lassie Ahfe"? Maybe the numbers are scrambled to protect your identity: "Lassie Fahe."

OK, one last guess. The letters aren't scrambled; they're an acronym: "Lassie, An Honest Feminine Erudite." That might be it...

Hi Royce,

I'll just share a bit of what I've learned about the lunar calendar, in case it might help you in your own research.

---

The reason many people follow a moon-based calendar (and by extension a moon-based Sabbath), instead of the Gregorian calendar (which is a sun-based calendar) is that the Torah says quite a bit about how to calculate when the holy days are -- whether Sabbaths, New Moon Days, or the various festival days. And what it says has a lot to do with the cycle of the moon.

Before I go on, I'll just add that, technically-speaking, the calendar of the Tanakh ("old testament") and the ancient Hebrews was a "lumi-solar" calendar. That is, it was based on both the moon and the sun. Each month was completely moon-based (New Moon to New Moon = 1 month, who cares what the sun is doing!), but each year would begin only after the barley crop was checked for a certain level of ripeness (called "aviv," and by extension the name of the first month). Thus, whenever the barley crop wasn't quite ready, another moon-cycle (lunar month) would be added, before the new year would begin. This way, the ancient Hebrew calendar managed to stay in tune with the sun (adding the leap month every once in a while). Which was important, because the lunar year is shorter than the solar year by 11 or 12 days each solar year. No leap month would have meant drifting seasons, and the offerings and festivals wouldn't have been "sustainable" or accurate to what was commanded in the law.

Also before I go on, I'll just say that there is no neat and tidy "chapter" anywhere in the scriptures that is dedicated to explaining everything we might want to know about how to calculate the lunar calendar. The information is spread out, and takes some work to put together. So, my summary below took a lot of work to put together, and you may find some of it hard to believe, having not clearly read it all in one place before. But this is my favor to you: summarizing it all in one place like this. =)

Since the first day of the lunar month (as calculated in the Torah calendar) is always a New Moon Day, rather than the first day of the work week, the Hebrews had a calendar that did not follow a continuous seven-day cycle. Add to that the possibility for "New Moon Rebuilding Days" (my phrasing, not scripture's) at the end of roughly every-other month, and you have a Sabbath that does not continuously correlate to the Gregorian calendar.

As I understand it, the ancient Hebrew calendar looked like this:

--------------------- 01
02 03 04 05 06 07 08
09 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
-------------------- (30)

Day 01 was New Moon Day, a day similar in observance to the Sabbath, but somewhat different, and apparently seen by Yahuwah as a whole 'nother category of day. You'll find special laws (related to what to do / what not to do) regarding these New Moon Days, which is proof enough of its existence as a separate day -- neither a work day, nor a Sabbath day. And you'll find New Moon Days and Sabbath days mentioned in the same "sentence," which is more evidence that they are separate categories of days.

Days 08, 15, 22, and 29 are always Sabbath days. Every instance in the Tanakh ("old testament") of a Sabbath day being connected to a number of the month, the Sabbath is one of these four numbers (more evidence of the first day of the month being a New Moon Day. If the first day of the lunar month was a work day, Sabbath days would be 07, 14, 21, and 28).

Day 30 is an optional day, added when needed. (There are "proof texts" for such a day being on the calendar, when needed.) Remember, the lunar month is on average 29.5 days long, so some months the two 0.5 days will add up to a whole day, and that day then gets added as Day 30. (A lot to explain with regards to how to calculate the beginning of the month -- when it starts. Maybe another time -- or another thread?)

All the other days not mentioned above are regular work days, unless a festival is scheduled. So, the first six columns of days are all work days. And all the days in the seventh column are special somehow.

---

So, if observing the Sabbath according to the Torah's instructions is important to Yahuwah, and if my explanation above (of the Torah calendar) is accurate, then following the Gregorian calendar's Saturday is going to be the incorrect day on which to be observing Sabbath (in Yahuwah's eyes) more often than not. Remember, the extra one or two days at the beginning or end of the ancient Hebrew calendar, will throw off the timing of the Sabbath days, as compared to the continuous seven-day cycle of the Gregorian calendar.

I've calculated this lunar calendar for the next twelve months or so, and have compared the lunar Sabbaths to the Gregorian calendar Saturdays, and have thus demonstrated (to myself) just how infrequently the lunar Sabbaths happen to fall on a Saturday.

Now, if Yahuwah doesn't really care about the Sabbath days being "correctly" observed (that is, according to the Torah instructions and the lunar calculation of when those days are to be observed), then you're probably good. If all he wants is a rest day once a week, then why not make it a Saturday? I have a friend who takes his rest day on Monday. (Who cares what the Roman calendar says. How do we know which day is the "seventh." Can't we start our count from anywhere, working six days, then resting one?)

But if he does care, then losing your job over a Saturday Sabbath observance might have been a great "opportunity" for you to start your own business, but it was "technically" the wrong day to fight over. You should have been fighting for a flex schedule in which you could have changed your day off to a different day, every four weeks. =) Ha! Well, now with your own business, I guess you can do whatever you want.

As another possibility, Yahuwah might not even care whether we observe Sabbath. Certainly Yahushua didn't observe Sabbath "correctly" (in terms of following all the rules associated with it, at least) -- as I understand it anyways. I believe the criticisms of him not observing the Sabbath were legitimate criticisms. But he did know which day it was supposed to be on (whether he always observed it or not), since the calendar he followed at that time was still the correct one. And maybe his justification of "my father is always working" wouldn't apply to us in the same way it applied to him. Or maybe that's the new perspective. Too much to think about.

---

I could say a lot more on this topic (especially on how to calculate the calendar -- which is more complicated that it sounds), but that should give you a head start on your own research.

If you want to continue the discussion, maybe start a separate thread (rather than PM me to continue in a private discussion), as I'm sure everybody here is interested in which calendar we should be following. And if you are interested in what conclusions I've come to, or have questions about what I just wrote, PM me to let know about your new thread and I'll try to post there.

Hope that helps more than it overwhelms.

Q

Edited by user Saturday, September 18, 2010 11:44:54 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified