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Offline Yada  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:46:53 AM(UTC)
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Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
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Abraham is one of my favorite people in the Old Covenant Scriptures because he embodies so much and - "through him all the nations of the world were blessed."

I actually borrowed this quote from: Future History but thought it might spark a discussion of this remarkable individual (and his wife Sarah). What can we learn from their example/experience?

To quote:

Quote:
Promise. God next focused upon one man, Abraham, through whom He determined to bless all the nations of the earth. Abraham believed God’s unilateral promise and that belief--not what he did, but what he believed--was seen by God as righteousness.


-Yada

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Offline Icy  
#2 Posted : Friday, September 28, 2007 6:48:38 AM(UTC)
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I happened upon this as I was trying to go through and read everything in the forum that I hadn't seen yet. Yada wanted to start a disccusion and nothing ever happened. So, I guess I'll ask some questions.

We see constantly throughout scripture that it is belief, or trust, that we need and not works. Yahuweh sees the belief as righteous, not the actions. I don't know about Abraham, but we could look at David and Solomon both and see that they lived lives that our christians today would tell you would "send you to hell," in having multiple wives and concubines. David even had his friend killed so he could marry his wife whom he had already slept with. I'm sure there are other examples even.

I find it hard to come to terms that we could simpley trust and believe in him and then do things that would be contrary to his law. Certainly the law is for our own benefit, but where is the line? I would say that if you trust and believe Yahuweh, then you would do your best to follow his law. But what if we fall to temptation, what if there is a weakness that we constantly give in to? Even if we continue to ask for forgiveness, what if we continue to fall to that same temptation up until the day that he returns for us? Would we go? Would we stay?
Offline James  
#3 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2007 7:05:12 AM(UTC)
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Icy I was doing what you were doing, just reading therough everything on the forum looking for what intrested me when I came across this.

It acctully intrests me quite a bit so I will try to spark the topic once again.

I can't remember where I read it, or else I would site the source, but this stuck with me. Paraphrase "When we recieve Yahweh we recieve a love for the law(Torah)." This means that we will want to follow the law, and we will feel bad when we are unable to. We are human, and even with Yah's spirit within us we are still uncapable of keeping his law, but we love his law and strive to keep it, and are sorrowfull and regret when we fail to do so.

Yahweh knows that we can not keep his law perfectly, and thus forgives, as long as we aknowledge our failings, and ask for his forgivness, but when we try to self justify what we have done, and refuse to acknowledge it, like a father who knows his son broke the vase, but the son refuses to own up, he is disapointedm and chastises us.

I know I have on occasion caught myself doing just such a thing, saying to myself, "Well it's okay that I did it because.....". Then I tell myself no it was wrong, I should make it right, and I tell my father what I did and ask that he forgive me. He always does, no matter how many times I make the same mistake.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Icy  
#4 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2007 7:26:43 AM(UTC)
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James, this is all hypothetical, but. . .

What if you do something that society tells you is "evil" or "wrong" or "sinful" but you don't feel any sorrow or regret about it, and yet you love Yahuweh and want to keep his law? Do you think this means that you are not sinning like the world says you are? Granted, we can check scripture to see, but what if it is not specifically addressed?
Offline James  
#5 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2007 9:32:09 AM(UTC)
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I find society to be a horrible judge of good and evil.

Look through out history and this is obvious.

God's law and societies law may have some areas of overlapping, but they each have there own that the other doesn't. If you violate where they overlap. then you are violating socities law, and more importantly God's law, and therefore you should feel sorrowful. Where socities law goes beyond God's law, i.e. German society said it was evil to harbor Jews, We have to judge the law for it's merits, this one I don't think we should follow.

I think Yahushua put it best when he condensed all of the Law down to 2 simple principals. Matthew22:36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love Yahweh your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

If you can apply these two principals, then you will not violate God's law, you may however violate man's law, just think when the Anti-Messiah makes loving God illegal.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Icy  
#6 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2007 10:12:29 AM(UTC)
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Thanks, James, for your reply. You put it nicely. After reading your reply, and then re-reading my question, I realize I asked a pointless question. With those two principles in mind, it should be easy to tell.
Offline gammafighter  
#7 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2007 10:29:18 AM(UTC)
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What I have seen for a while now (correct me if i'm wrong because i think this is one of the truths from my "Christian" upbringing) is that our love for God makes us want to change. For example, i used to be terrified of the Goats and Sheep parable because on the surface, it seems like Yahshua is saying "if you don't do this list of things (feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.), I won't love you and you won't go to Heaven." Really, the idea is that Yahweh's love fills us up so much that we have a desire to do those things. This is why when I pray for something I believe to be Yahweh's will, like share my beliefs, I pray that I would be so overcome with His love that it would burst out of me, instead of praying that I would have the strength to perform my "religious duty".

Regarding the original post:
One of the lessons I learned from Sarah is that nothing is too big for Yahweh; there is nothing too ambitious for Him. Sarah laughed because she thought it was impossible for her to conceive a child, but we now know that wasn't true. We should all be praying to conceive children so to speak. Don't hold back in your prayers thinking that you are asking too much of Yahweh.
On the other side, no problem is too small that Yahweh doesn't care about it.
Offline kp  
#8 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2007 11:04:09 AM(UTC)
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Fortunately, gammafighter, the sheep and goats thing is specifically said to be a Last Days phenomenon, where one's choices will show up in their behavior (which is not necessarily the case in the "age of grace." Oh, and about Sarah? You were right the first time: having a child was impossible at her age. That was the whole point. Yahweh isn't restricted to the "possible." In fact, He seems to be bored with it, much preferring to wait until things are "impossible," and then do them. You can't say we don't serve a fun God. Y'never know what He's gonna do next, if He doesn't tell us about it up front.

On the subject of how faith, Law, and society relate to each other, you guys reminded me of something in The Owner's Manual:

Quote:
Picture a bridge across a deep gorge. The Designer has said, “The bridge I’ve provided is the only way to cross the gorge. It will hold you. I promise. Trust Me.” At the same time, He’s posted a sign: Bridge speed limit—40 MPH. Now we, mankind, are all standing around contemplating how to get across the gorge. And we find ourselves gathering in groups reflecting our varying “solutions.” The first group (whose leader is Abraham) says, “I trust the Designer to get me across the gorge, but since my car doesn’t have a speedometer, I’ll just keep my eyes fixed on Him as I cross the bridge.” The next group, led by Moses, says, “We too trust the Designer,” and they cross the bridge with their eyes glued to the speedometer: 40 MPH—that’s the law. David’s group not only trusts the Designer, they’re enthusiastic fans. However, though they know there’s a speed limit on the bridge, they often forget to observe it—and subsequently they crash their cars repeatedly into the guard rails as they cross the chasm. All three of these groups believe the Designer’s promise and make it to the other side of the gorge because of that belief. The Law has played its part in how smooth (or bumpy) the journey was, but it hasn’t affected the destination or their certainty of reaching it. These three groups represent the world’s believers.

There are, however, other groups of which we need to be aware. Herod’s group doesn’t want to cross the gorge at all. They’d rather try to build paradise on this side. The bridge seems to them to be beside the point. Jezebel’s people swear they know of a fast, smooth road that will easily get you across the river, just downstream a few miles. “You don’t always have to do what the Designer wants,” they say. “Trust us instead. C’mon. It’ll be fun!” Those who follow Rabbi Akiba don’t trust the bridge to hold their weight. They say there’s a better path upstream, but to use it you’ve got to be disciplined and keep the letter of the Law—as we interpret it: “The 40 MPH speed limit must apply to all roads, everywhere, even though we reject the bridge that the law was written to instruct us about in the first place.” They say, “Crossing the gorge with us will be an impressive achievement of which you can be justifiably proud. But the bridge is just too easy—it’s only there to deceive the gullible.” And finally, there’s Constantine’s group, who actually do venture out onto the Designer’s bridge, but not to cross it. Their idea is to encrust it with gold and jewels, restrict access to it, and erect a toll booth at the entrance. The bottom line: nobody in these last four groups crosses the bridge at all, and consequently, none of them make it across the gorge. It really doesn’t matter whether they keep the law or not, because they don’t believe the Designer’s assurance: “My bridge will get you to the other side.”

There are other groups as well, outside the experience of Judeo-Christianity, that neither trust the bridge nor respect the speed limits. One is represented by Muhammad. They provide an inclined ramp and a promise that if you drive fast enough, you’ll make it to the other side, where big-eyed virgins await you with come-hither looks and goblets of wine. Buddha’s group says the gorge is an illusion, and if you just walk up to the edge and step in, all your troubles will be over. Hitler’s group, meanwhile, insists that fate has decreed victory over the gorge and that the lebensraum that lies beyond it must fall to his irresistible military might. Need I go on?

In case you still don’t know what I’m talking about, here is the key to the metaphor. The “bridge” is Yahshua, the one and only way that the “Designer,” Yahweh, has provided for us to reach Him. The near side of the gorge is our mortal life, the far side is heaven, and the gorge itself is death. The speed limit is the Torah, God’s instructions for a safe and productive journey. The “vehicles” in our story are our physical bodies. If we don’t heed the “speed limit,” our bodies can be expected to suffer some damage along the way. But if we try to reach the other side by any means other than the Designer’s bridge, we will fail altogether.


Metaphor Man strikes again!

kp
Offline James  
#9 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2007 11:12:24 AM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
Metaphor Man strikes again!

kp

That happens to be my favorite of your metaphors KP. espesially the part about the muslims and their ramp.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Icy  
#10 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2007 5:11:29 PM(UTC)
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That is one of my favorites as well.
Offline seeker83  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:22:48 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: kp Go to Quoted Post
Fortunately, gammafighter, the sheep and goats thing is specifically said to be a Last Days phenomenon, where one's choices will show up in their behavior (which is not necessarily the case in the "age of grace." Oh, and about Sarah? You were right the first time: having a child was impossible at her age. That was the whole point. Yahweh isn't restricted to the "possible." In fact, He seems to be bored with it, much preferring to wait until things are "impossible," and then do them. You can't say we don't serve a fun God. Y'never know what He's gonna do next, if He doesn't tell us about it up front.

On the subject of how faith, Law, and society relate to each other, you guys reminded me of something in The Owner's Manual:



Metaphor Man strikes again!

kp


Um...this metaphor is freaking amazing. LOL I do wonder how it plays out for those that actually wind up IN the gorge (metaphor for eternity separated from Yah)...do they get on the bridge, then just keep ramming their vehicles into the guardrail at 80 mph (repetitive, intentional sin in outright defiance to the speed limit) until it gives and they fall over into the gorge? Or maybe they stand on the near side of the bridge and recruit folks to go "bungee jumping," over the gorge, with no means to actually bring them back up? I'm not good at metaphors, but this is such an interesting one, I just wonder how it might reflect the reality of where those who side with the adversary wind up.
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