logo
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

3 Pages<123>
Options
View
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline Matthew  
#51 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:09:12 PM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Continuing:

Matthew 5:17- 20 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

The passage "anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven," is telling me that if anyone teaches others to break one of the least of these will still enter into the kingdom of heaven, however just scraping in the doors, maybe even getting there [edit: should be their] behind pinched in the closing door.

I'm assuming these are those that don't know any better, like people who love God but have been blinded by the expression "it has been nailed to the cross." The law is for our benefit but if someone teaches that it's ok to eat pork, which I recon is one of the least of the laws, I still think the person will be saved.

Am I right?
Offline YAH is my FATHER  
#52 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:21:05 PM(UTC)
YAH is my FATHER
Joined: 7/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 95
Man
Location: Somewhere Poetic

Shalom Matthew,

That is a terribly interesting point that you make my friend, and one which I hadn't seen before.

I might even read it as saying that breaking the law and teaching others to do likewise will place that individual as above "the Pharisees and teachers of the law", for it seems that these "will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven", but he will.

Could that be right?

Grace and peace.

"So knowledge isn't the main measure, love of Yah and of each other is."
Offline kp  
#53 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2008 6:28:37 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

I think the point is that even people who have a genuine personal relationship with Yahweh can be total buttheads. Just because Yah is our Father (no reference to the previous correspondent's handle, honest) it doesn't necessarily follow that we are immediately gifted with all knowledge and discernment. Even the smartest, most gifted, most dedicated of us are still prone to making stupid spiritual blunders. The most we can hope for is that they become less serious and less frequent as we mature in God's grace. But as my hair grows grayer, it becomes increasingly obvious that the more I know, the more I know I don't know.

kp
Offline YAH is my FATHER  
#54 Posted : Thursday, July 31, 2008 5:07:33 AM(UTC)
YAH is my FATHER
Joined: 7/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 95
Man
Location: Somewhere Poetic

As my hair grows grayer, it becomes increasingly obvious that some days are better than others, and then there are *those* days when I realise I would have done everyone a great favor if my butthead had not ventured out from under my bed sheets that morning.

Yesterday seems to have been a prime example.


"So knowledge isn't the main measure, love of Yah and of each other is."
Offline kp  
#55 Posted : Thursday, July 31, 2008 7:59:50 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Ah, yes, my friend, but that's why Jeremiah reminds us, "Through Yahweh's mercies we are not consumed, because His compassiouns fail not. They are new every morning; Great is Your faithfulness." (Lam 3:22-23) Words I live by.

kp
Offline andrergsanchez  
#56 Posted : Monday, August 25, 2008 5:04:13 PM(UTC)
andrergsanchez
Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 29
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

I do not understand how Annihilation can be any better than Hell. Is pain and pleasure the measure of all things? I rather be alive (exist) in agony, than to feel nothing because I am dead (do not exist). It seems strange to say that God will annihilate, say, aborted fetuses. Isn't that what human beings are attempting to do when they perform the abortion? Hell I can understand, it is, not a place of punishment but a place of separation, a place of mercy in fact.

I suppose I could make sense of a 2 door God, one leading to life, and the other to death (as in, annihilation), but I cannot make sense of a 3 door God. In fact, even a 2 door God (one to hell, the other to annihilation) I find easier to understand and accept than a 3 door God.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#57 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 1:02:01 AM(UTC)
Robskiwarrior
Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Man
Location: England

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
andrergsanchez wrote:
I do not understand how Annihilation can be any better than Hell. Is pain and pleasure the measure of all things? I rather be alive (exist) in agony, than to feel nothing because I am dead (do not exist).


Really? I would say Annihilation please... to be in the knowledge of what you would have missed - the knowledge of the lack of Yah's presence, for eternity - thats timeless, so you wouldnt grow used to it as time dosnt pass...

I kinda see Annihilation like this, if I hit a bird with my car and its not dead, but its obviously in a lot of distress and its not going to get better - it will die - no doubt... do I let it wriggle around in pain or do I finish it off. Personally I see the finishing off as very murcyful. Now imagine you never knew Yah, you were not interested, you never signed up for anything that you thought God was linked to - completely just did not want to know. Is it more murciful to let that person experiance "hell" for eternity - when really they are only there because they didnt sign up to anything, or would it be better to get what they were expecting anyway? The end...

I find the 3rd door idea very comforting, I did not understand why "everyone was going to hell except Christians" thing, when most non-christians didn't do anything that specifies entry to hell in scripture.

Give me annihilation over hell anyday :)

edit: wow what a cheerful subject lol
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline bitnet  
#58 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 6:09:56 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

Andre, being annihilated is definitely way better than eternal torment, don't you think? I mean, if you bake a cake and it did not turn out right would you put it back into the oven and say, "Burn for all eternity, you wretched cake, for not coming out deliciously the way I wanted you to!" or do you simply toss it away never to be seen again? That is the essence of annihilation. The Creator could simply let all the dead lie in the dirt not knowing anything (for the dead know not anything) but the resurrection must have a purpose. It is either to be like Him or to face judgement. In being judged would you rather seek mercy and try to get to know Him or would your heart be so unrepentant that you think that you still know better than the One judging you? In which case being dissipated into nothingness is great because the alternative -- eternal damnation -- is not going to be a vacation. However, the method of dissipation is not going to be fun either. Yahweh shall cremate the wicked and unrepentant. Yup, the cake shall be tossed back into the oven to vapourise, except for those who seek to do evil for eternity and they shall get their wish as well, but not quite the way they wanted.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline andrergsanchez  
#59 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 2:04:19 PM(UTC)
andrergsanchez
Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 29
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

bitnet wrote:
Andre, being annihilated is definitely way better than eternal torment, don't you think?


No, I don't. I guess it comes down to this, do you think hell is a cruel punishment designed for those that God really hates, or an act of mercy towards those that refuse ultimate salvation? I see hell as mercy. Those that God cannot have in his presence, he guards away from him [ADDED: Sort of, though probably no quite like, the way he sustains man's current life on earth]. If hell is a punishment, you are talking about a cruel God, who would torment others just for the fun of it. I thought christianity was NOT like Islam. Do you believe we choose to go to hell, or that we are sent there?


Quote:
I hit a bird with my car and its not dead, but its obviously in a lot of distress and its not going to get better - it will die - no doubt... do I let it wriggle around in pain or do I finish it off.


Would you do the same if it was your child dying of cancer? I would say any human being that performed a "mercy kill" would be regarded as a murderer. Murder is universally regarded as the worst crime a person can commit, and what is killing if not the annihilation of another person's soul, within our human limits? I say within our human limits, because the power to give and take life rests with God alone (unless he chooses to share it, but that still qualifies as resting with God). Though we can't really kill anyone, we can try, and it is the attempt that makes a person a murderer.

To go back to the bird analogy, the bird will die, no doubt, regardless of you hiting it or not. To cut its life short because it is "wriggling around in pain" is to say that pain negates the value of life.

Edited by user Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:43:40 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline andrergsanchez  
#60 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 2:39:44 PM(UTC)
andrergsanchez
Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 29
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Human beings have developed criminal systems based on the same principles of separation, mercy and annihilation. There is a great deal of mercy in today's criminal systems. When mercy runs out, there is separation in prison (hell), either temporarily or permanently (as eternal as we can make it). Ultimately, there is annihilation (the death penalty), which is the ultimate form of separation, and the ultimate form of punishment. Most people regard annihilation with such terror, that many countries don't even have the death penalty. You may find relief in the death penalty, but I don't, and neither do the vast majority of living beings. Even the lowest of animals will struggle through pain in an attempt to stay alive. There is only one thing that could make me hate God, that he would condemn me to death, because I cannot but hate one that would murder me, even if it is the same one that gave me life.
Offline bitnet  
#61 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 6:33:48 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

And that is your first challenge, Andre, to decide which is greater -- Life or the Giver of Life. Your decision and understanding of Scripture from now on shall depend on your perception and approach to Him. Eternal life is a gift, not a curse, and only those who truly want to be with Him shall follow Him and receive eternal life, not those who shall continue to rebel against Him. There are already adversaries like that with eternal life, and the Creator does not have to create another set of beings with the same purpose. Your understanding of hell needs to be cleared up and I think it best for you to continue to read YY with an open mind. It is definitely no fun being thrown into a pit of fire even for a a second, let alone for eternity.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline andrergsanchez  
#62 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:31:10 PM(UTC)
andrergsanchez
Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 29
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

bitnet wrote:
And that is your first challenge, Andre, to decide which is greater -- Life or the Giver of Life.


I'm afraid I do not understand the question, as it is phrased. Life cannot exist without the Giver of Life, and as such, one cannot choose it in exclusion of God without engaging in idolatry, that is, without attempting to create a false God who cannot give life. I am also not arrogant and vain to the point where I would choose death out of spiteness towards God. So I do not understand what decision it is you are asking me to make.

Are you asking me if I would be willing to die for God? That is, without trusting that he will bring me back to life, a real death, the death of eternal annihilation. The answer to that is no, and it will always be no.


Quote:
Your decision and understanding of Scripture from now on shall depend on your perception and approach to Him.


I do not understand what you mean by that.


Quote:
Eternal life is a gift, not a curse, and only those who truly want to be with Him shall follow Him and receive eternal life, not those who shall continue to rebel against Him.


The primary definition of life is existance. Yes, you could say some forms of existance are better than others, but primarily life is about being, even if you are in hell. It is by itself a wonderful gift. I can understand that those who do not choose to live, who refuse life itself by refusing God, be allowed to die, to be annihilated. It is their choice, as foolish as it may seem to me. However, that leaves no room for hell, because if the choice is between life and death, hell becomes a third choice, a middle ground. I cannot see hell as the lesser between it and death.


Quote:

There are already adversaries like that with eternal life, and the Creator does not have to create another set of beings with the same purpose.


When human beings are cast into hell, are they are not awared eternal life, as horrible as that "life" may be? If Satan has eternal life, so do all of hell's inhabitants. I don't understand what you are trying to say.


Quote:

Your understanding of hell needs to be cleared up


Can you explain in what way?


Quote:

It is definitely no fun being thrown into a pit of fire even for a a second, let alone for eternity.


Annihilation is not fun either. If for whatever reason God sends me to hell, I will endeavor to thank him every moment of my torment for that gift, though I may resent that others received a better gift than I.
Offline bitnet  
#63 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 10:39:28 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

It is apparent that you misunderstand what is meant by annihilation/dissipation. When that happens nothing is left. There is no soul, no tears, no sadness, no memories, no emotion of any sort. Nothing. It would seem as though the person never existed. It is not being left in a fiery pit to consider the mercy of the Creator for years and years and years. Can you really imagine being shut up in total solitary confinement, total darkness, for one week, one year, one century, for all eternity? That is entirely different from dissipation. If you think that is a gift and want it then it is up to you. For to get there you can do as you like and follow the adversary. There is no need to get to know the Creator and His Way. You can follow any other way. Any religion will do, or irrelegion if you please. But that is not what you want. If it were so you would not have asked. The fact that you are here enquiring means you want to know more about the Creator and how to reach Him.

At the risk of repeating myself and others I can only ask that you read the books on Yada Yahweh again and again. You need to invest your time there more than here (I took almost three years to read and learn before making my first post) unless you need to clarify something that is hard to understand, or to critique something. Or if you want to share more news about your walk with Yahweh. We are only too pleased to be able to encourage each other here. We understand that we have to be of one mind with the Creator, or else how can we live with Him for eternity? This life is a place to learn, and this site is an opportunity for relationship, with Abba Yahweh and with each other. Take your time, but hurry up. Yada and KP reckon that we have about 19 years or so before it all unravels.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline andrergsanchez  
#64 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 11:58:01 PM(UTC)
andrergsanchez
Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 29
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

bitnet wrote:
Shalom,

It is apparent that you misunderstand what is meant by annihilation/dissipation. When that happens nothing is left. There is no soul, no tears, no sadness, no memories, no emotion of any sort. Nothing. It would seem as though the person never existed.


That is precisely what I understand it to mean.


Quote:
It is not being left in a fiery pit to consider the mercy of the Creator for years and years and years. Can you really imagine being shut up in total solitary confinement, total darkness, for one week, one year, one century, for all eternity? That is entirely different from dissipation.


Tell me then, if annihilation is an act of mercy, what is the purpose of hell? Why is anyone sent to it? Why are they not annihilated instead?


Quote:
But that is not what you want. If it were so you would not have asked. The fact that you are here enquiring means you want to know more about the Creator and how to reach Him.


Yes. More precisely, I want to know the validity of this path.

Quote:

unless you need to clarify something that is hard to understand,


Is that not what I am doing right now?

Offline Matthew  
#65 Posted : Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:52:46 AM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Quote:
Tell me then, if annihilation is an act of mercy, what is the purpose of hell? Why is anyone sent to it? Why are they not annihilated instead?


The books, YY, FH and TOM go quite deep into this subject.

When non-believers get thrown into the Lake of Fire, either they are dissipated or they suffer eternal anguish. Scripture indicates that those who purposefully and actively lead other astray are doing the work of the evil one, they are joining themselves to Satan, they are born from below, born of Satan. You can say that when God looks at these people He sees evil spirits, maybe even Satan himself, hence they receive the same fate as Satan. They spend eternity in a place where God is not, deep, dark and nothing.

I think it was the Catholics who came up with hell being a torturous place, like the Islamic hell-fire. The more a person fears the better they serve, the more a person fears a torturous painful fire the more money they give.

What I find ironic is that atheists, I'm being general here, but am including all who believe there is no God, like to believe that we are just another animal and will die like an animal. They will get the desires of their hearts, they want to be animals, therefore they will get the same fate as an animal. They live, they die. They came from nothingness and will return to nothingness. Unless of course they are a die-hard atheist actively leading people astray.
Offline andrergsanchez  
#66 Posted : Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:13:08 AM(UTC)
andrergsanchez
Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 29
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Matthew wrote:
The books, YY, FH and TOM go quite deep into this subject.

When non-believers get thrown into the Lake of Fire, either they are dissipated or they suffer eternal anguish. Scripture indicates that those who purposefully and actively lead other astray are doing the work of the evil one, they are joining themselves to Satan, they are born from below, born of Satan. You can say that when God looks at these people He sees evil spirits, maybe even Satan himself, hence they receive the same fate as Satan. They spend eternity in a place where God is not, deep, dark and nothing.


Yes, I have read that. While I couldn't recite you any of these books by heart, I have read most of their content. My question is much simpler than that. The question is, why is Satan and those that choose to follow him not annihilated? He can be. All things receive the sustenance for their life from God, and without him, they cannot live. Not even in hell. Satan is not a source of life, so why is he treated as one? Is hell a sadistic punishment? Because that is how it comes off when the idea of annihilation as a third option is introduced and hell is described as something more than a place of separation.

The consequences of separation may be terrible, but it sounds as if the consequences of the separation (eternal anguish) are the reason they are in hell. Because if they were to be simply annihilated, they would be separated from God in a much more final, and complete way. So I have trouble understanding hell as something other than a mercy, a half-separation. Think of it this way, our existance on this earth may be incomplete, but it is still a gift from God. In the same way our existance in hell may be incomplete, but it is granted as a gift, so that he can refrain from annihilating us entirely.


Quote:
I think it was the Catholics who came up with hell being a torturous place, like the Islamic hell-fire. The more a person fears the better they serve, the more a person fears a torturous painful fire the more money they give.


There is more than one way to inflict pain. The way hell is described here is just as terrifying as the islamic hellfire. I would probably preffer to be roasted by Allah than to endure the eternal darkness and guilt of your idea of hell.


Quote:
What I find ironic is that atheists, I'm being general here, but am including all who believe there is no God, like to believe that we are just another animal and will die like an animal. They will get the desires of their hearts, they want to be animals, therefore they will get the same fate as an animal. They live, they die. They came from nothingness and will return to nothingness.


There are actually several different types of atheists. Roughly speaking, you can divide them in two groups:

1- Those that seek no salvation, who have surrendered to death entirely. I have no objection to their annihilation.
2- Those that believe they can be their own salvation, who practice self-idolatry.

Not all atheists think of themselves as "animals". Some think of themselves as God.


Quote:
Unless of course they are a die-hard atheist actively leading people astray.


Again with this... is there a reason, other than God's sadism (and I clarify here that I do not believe God is a sadist, which is why I have trouble accepting this understanding of the "afterlife"), for those who actively "lead people astray" to endure hell instead of being annihilated?




ADDED: Oh and by the way, hello from São Paulo!
Offline Matthew  
#67 Posted : Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:24:46 AM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
andrergsanchez wrote:
My question is much simpler than that. The question is, why is Satan and those that choose to follow him not annihilated? He can be. All things receive the sustenance for their life from God, and without him, they cannot live. Not even in hell. Satan is not a source of life, so why is he treated as one? Is hell a sadistic punishment? Because that is how it comes off when the idea of annihilation as a third option is introduced and hell is described as something more than a place of separation.

From what I know spirits are eternal beings. Therefore they cannot die, they were created to live forever.

Yes, Satan is not a source of life, however he will live forever. He will be incarcerated, severely confined. That's what Scripture tells us. Some say God cannot destroy Satan, because He created spirits as eternal beings. However, is there not a chance that God can actually destroy spirits if He wants to? He certainly created them, so why not being able to destroy them as well?

andrergsanchez wrote:
Again with this... is there a reason, other than God's sadism (and I clarify here that I do not believe God is a sadist, which is why I have trouble accepting this understanding of the "afterlife"), for those who actively "lead people astray" to endure hell instead of being annihilated?

They do the work of the Evil One, preventing people from finding God.

Matthew 18:6-7 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it is better for him that a millstone be hung around his neck, and that he be drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of stumbling-blocks! For it is necessary that stumbling-blocks come, but woe to that man by whom the stumbling-block comes!"

andrergsanchez wrote:
ADDED: Oh and by the way, hello from São Paulo!

That's certainly good to know! PS: I'm a gringo and my Portuguese is still lacking.
Offline bitnet  
#68 Posted : Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:57:48 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

Matthew, looks like you may have a friend in Sao Paolo! Anyway, what I wanted andrergsanchez to note is that ultimately it boils down to choice: life, death or punishment. For most of us here, we choose life. Many who have not been given the choice shall be given a choice according to their works when the time comes. Those who continue to put themselves as gods, teaching that anything other than the Creator should come first, shall face retribution. Does this make the Creator a sadist? No. The choices are spelt out. Choose. Decide. You cannot do evil and expect to get off easy after destroying hundreds and thousands of lives, or even just one life. Ultimately we decide where we want to go. The adversary had a choice. But he chose wrongly in spite of having a much "better" form of existence. He and his cohorts were given great powers and a choice. Once they chose, their character was set and they cannot change, much like how concrete sets after it has assumed its final shape. They probably knew it also, but they thought that under the leadership of Halal ben Shachar they could overthrow the Creator with their power. Big mistake.

We too are given choices. Thankfully we have it slightly better then the fallen angels. But this is also because we are made lower than the angels. How do we know all this? From the Scripture that you are suspicious of. If there was no Scripture we would not know anything. Without Scripture we would be walking in the dark. Our current practices of governance are loosely based on the laws given by the Creator, without which we would steal, murder and covet each other's possessions. The order that we have comes from His teachings to Adam. We humans are, in a manner of sorts, walking blindly in His Torah. He came to clarify His Torah. And to expound the principles of good living so that we may have life in abundance. And to warn us of all the pitfalls. And to share with those who would listen the things that shall happen to the world around them. If there were no Word, we lose much. Through the Word we have life. Of course without the Word we surely can still talk to Him, but what about? Each would ask something for their own benefit without due consideration for the next person. Would that give us everlasting peace? The world is in such a state precisely because each person thinks that they can approach their gods on their terms. Who is the Creator then? Men exalt themselves at the expense of others. Therefore the Word is important. However men again have messed up the Word and caused misery.

Should the Creator care? Without so much as batting an eyelid He can recreate everything... and we would all disappear not knowing anything. All that we are shall be nothing. The universe can disappear. Our thoughts and conversations here and individual personalities shall be moot. But that is not what He wants for us. He wants to give us eternal life. Life is a gift. Not a curse. Unless we want it to be. But we have to choose. And decide not to put anything above Him, not even life itself, however sacred we may think it to be. Abraham was ready to give the life of his only son, and Abba Yahweh did give up the life of Messiyah Yahushua for us. That is the paramount story here in all of Scripture. If we are willing to put all into His hands, including life itself, then He shall hold us close to Him. Deny Him and we tread on treacherous paths, exposed to the wiles of the adversary and his cohorts who have no respect for life as we know it, because they know that our life in His hands shall be transformed to one even greater than the angels! It may all seem weird now, but this sense must prevail. There must be a way. We need to trust Him. If we think that He is being unfair to the billions of souls who have not heard His voice, we judge Him prematurely as surely He has a way for them. But for those who willingly choose evil continuously, then they also choose their final destination. Sad, but true. In the end it is a matter of choice. So we have to decide. Choose life. Love. For that is His Will.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline andrergsanchez  
#69 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2008 2:21:15 AM(UTC)
andrergsanchez
Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 29
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Matthew wrote:
From what I know spirits are eternal beings. Therefore they cannot die, they were created to live forever.


There are only two ways to live forever. You can either be a source of life, or be sustained by one. If you are telling me God created Satan, or any other entity for that matter, that can exist without the consent of God, then you are not really describing anything that could be God. God is not merely the creator in a human sense of building something then standing back, he is the material of all creation. In the words of scripture, he is not merely our creator, he is the alpha and the omega.


Quote:
Yes, Satan is not a source of life, however he will live forever.


As will, you tell me, all those that side with him. If he is not a source of life (and he isn't), that could only happen if God chose to sustain the lives of those who follow him. Yet you tell me that this choice is not an act of mercy, that the act of mercy is annihilation. What then, is it? Punishment? Is not eternal punishment sadism? Because the regular purpose of punishment is to teach. If there is no end to punishment, no way to end it, it serves no purpose, it merely exists for its own sake.


Quote:

He will be incarcerated, severely confined. That's what Scripture tells us.

Some say God cannot destroy Satan, because He created spirits as eternal beings. However, is there not a chance that God can actually destroy spirits if He wants to? He certainly created them, so why not being able to destroy them as well?


Right. When I hear "God can't destroy Satan because he made Satan immortal." I can't help but see it as a slightly more sophisticated myth than that of the greek Gods. If God made Lucifer so that he would be a source, and not merely a reflection, of light, a source of life, then that makes Satan a God in his own right, and his rebellion one that makes much more sense.


Quote:

They do the work of the Evil One, preventing people from finding God.

Matthew 18:6-7 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it is better for him that a millstone be hung around his neck, and that he be drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of stumbling-blocks! For it is necessary that stumbling-blocks come, but woe to that man by whom the stumbling-block comes!"


So? I fail to see the connection. I have read about being "reborn from bellow", but that indicates that Satan is a giver of life. Such beliefs are idolatrous as far as I am concerned, because only God can give life. If he permits Satan to give life to his followers, the question remains, why, if not as a mercy?

Offline andrergsanchez  
#70 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2008 3:32:38 AM(UTC)
andrergsanchez
Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC)
Posts: 29
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

bitnet wrote:
Shalom,

Matthew, looks like you may have a friend in Sao Paolo! Anyway, what I wanted andrergsanchez to note is that ultimately it boils down to choice: life, death or punishment.


Except nobody chooses punishment. From what I recall, Satan chose to reign in heaven, not to be bound in hell. What you tell me is that they chose a path, and at the end of that path is punishment. The only one choosing punishment in such a case is God, because he is the only one with choice regarding what is at the end of that path.


Quote:
For most of us here, we choose life. Many who have not been given the choice shall be given a choice according to their works when the time comes.


And little babies? Young children? Aborted fetuses?


Quote:
Those who continue to put themselves as gods, teaching that anything other than the Creator should come first, shall face retribution. Does this make the Creator a sadist? No.


Uh... yes, it does. God does not need to punish such people. He can annihilate them, or he can even reward them. If he inflicts pain, and in such a way that it is final and eternal, then the only reason must because he wants to inflict pain. To want to inflict needless pain is sadism, regardless of who the one involved is.


Quote:

We too are given choices. Thankfully we have it slightly better then the fallen angels. But this is also because we are made lower than the angels. How do we know all this? From the Scripture that you are suspicious of.


Yes, and such things are precisely -why- I am suspicious of them. I don't understand them. I'm not asking to know all the mysteries of the universe, but the salvation of my soul should make sense. Would God have made man so little that he could not make sense of that which is most important to him?


Quote:

If there was no Scripture we would not know anything. Without Scripture we would be walking in the dark.


Regardless of the validity of the scriptures, God is the light that erases darkness, not them. To worship a book seems as idolatrous as worshiping a golden calf to me.


Quote:

Our current practices of governance are loosely based on the laws given by the Creator, without which we would steal, murder and covet each other's possessions.


As a society, that is precisely what we do now. However, on a cruder level, societies that did not have access to scripture have had laws against murder and theft, even envy. They are universal and easily derived from the nature of life in society.


Quote:

Of course without the Word we surely can still talk to Him, but what about? Each would ask something for their own benefit without due consideration for the next person.


I came to the conclusion that to pray for another person is innapropriate. It demonstrates lack of faith, as if God were not already looking after them, and all he was waiting for was for someone to remind him to do so. To ask him for things is slightly less innapropriate, because while God is also looking after you, what you are doing is less making a request and more acknowledging that he is the source of everything, and saying that you would accept his gift, whatever that may be. Mostly what I do on a day to day basis is thank God and acknowledge his presence. Our relationship with God is a personal one, is it not?


Quote:

He wants to give us eternal life. Life is a gift. Not a curse.


That is exactly what I keep saying.


Quote:

And decide not to put anything above Him, not even life itself, however sacred we may think it to be.


I ask again what that means, because I don't understand it.


Quote:

Abraham was ready to give the life of his only son, and Abba Yahweh did give up the life of Messiyah Yahushua for us. That is the paramount story here in all of Scripture.


I also do not understand in what way Yahushua was a sacrifice, nor why a sacrifice had to take place. He (supposedly) lives, after all. It is the miracle of him having come back to life and the promise that so may we, that seems most central to the scriptures. The conquest of death through God.


Quote:

We need to trust Him.


It is because I trust God that I have trouble accepting this as an accurate depiction of him. I trust God before I trust the Bible (you will excuse me if I use the more commonplace word), and certainly before I trust an interpretation of the Bible.


Quote:
If we think that He is being unfair to the billions of souls who have not heard His voice, we judge Him prematurely as surely He has a way for them.


Yes.

Offline James  
#71 Posted : Sunday, October 19, 2008 10:35:48 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 215 time(s) in 149 post(s)
Quote:
Quote:
Those who continue to put themselves as gods, teaching that anything other than the Creator should come first, shall face retribution. Does this make the Creator a sadist? No.


Uh... yes, it does. God does not need to punish such people. He can annihilate them, or he can even reward them. If he inflicts pain, and in such a way that it is final and eternal, then the only reason must because he wants to inflict pain. To want to inflict needless pain is sadism, regardless of who the one involved is.



I don't see it as Yahweh punishing them, it is the natural cause of their choice, by doing it they league themselves with the adversary, and just as when we league ourselves with Yahweh we receive his spirit, and are made immortal, so they receive the adversaries spirit, and thus are made immortal, therefore Yahweh can not annihilate them, just as he can not annihilate satan. And he can not forgive them if they have chosen to reject his forgiveness. So unforgiven, by choice, and immortal they must be placed somewhere, the only place is the abode of the adversary, which is not perpetual torment of a physical type, i.e fire and torture, but rather the torment comes from spending an eternity separated from Yahweh.

If I knowingly swallow a poison, and then when the antidote is offered, I run away and refuse it, the doctor is not responsible for my death.

As far as the notion he should/could reward them, that goes against the entire concept of justice, because of these people thousands if not millions have been led away from the source of life, to reward them for it would be a travesty and injustice. Unless you purpose that everyone should be given eternal life with Yahweh regardless of anything, even if they choose not to be there. Choices have to have consequences. With out them there can be no relationship, there can be no choice. If regardless of what choice you make the same consequence occurs then there is no choice to make. But if there are consequences for our choices then it is only just that the deceivers, and the deceived, should have different consequences to face.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Yada  
#72 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2008 2:27:04 PM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

Quote:
On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:30 AM, "DN" wrote:

I agree with you regarding the importance of door number two.

To put it bluntly, as a combat veteran, now I know that I never sent anyone through "door number three". This is a tremendous burden of guilt that has been taken away from me. (I type this reply with trembling hands and tears in my eyes.) I feel that many, many of the post-traumatic stress disorder sufferers need to hear this message. All living combat veterans who know that they have taken another life carry some degree of guilt with them regarding this issue. For some, (it) "is a small matter", for others, it is too much. If Mr. Bush's War ended TODAY, we in the US should expect to be dealing with "shell-shocked/combat-fatigued/PTSD" veterans for the next half century. If we can remove this un-warranted guilt from these guys, perhaps fewer shopping malls and post offices will get shot up in the coming years. (And if we are not careful, maybe a few vets can be pointed towards door number one!)

I hope to see you soon,

-D


Yada's response:

Quote:
D,

I came upon door number three blindly, even though I had always known that something like it had to be there. Most every time Yahweh speaks of the eternal fate of souls, especially of those who don't know Him, you find the words "death, destruction, and annihilation." The end of life for most is just that, nothing more, nothing less. And frankly, death can not be reconciled with "eternal torment." Since God speaks of three potential outcomes, there must be three, not two. It's ultimately fair.

While this resolved the primary agnostic/atheist argument against Christianity, I had never thought of it as it relates to a "combat veteran" doing what they were ordered to do--kill the enemy. While I am not a supporter of what we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan, my argument is with GW Bush and the US Congress, not with the men and women who follow their orders. So, if an awareness of "door two" can help combat veterans, let's come up with a way to expose it to them. A few might even open door number one.

Yada
If you'd like to join the YY Study Group room on Paltalk - just click here. The lockword is: yadayahweh
You can download the free software here.
Hope to see everyone on Paltalk!
WARNING: Do not give out personal information (name, address, etc.) to anyone on Paltalk - ever!
Offline sirgodfrey  
#73 Posted : Tuesday, October 21, 2008 4:39:05 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

Found a certain scripture that I wanted a friend to check out and had to keep reading :) but I came across this verse: Isaiah 26:14. when i looked at "destroyed" in the hebrew, i was instantly amazed...

destroy = shamad

1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated

a) (Niphal)

1) to be annihilated, be exterminated

2) to be destroyed, be devastated

b) (Hiphil)

1) to annihilate, exterminate

2) to destroy

I have read "The Three Doors" and am quite new to the three doors concept, but seeing such verses as these strengthens what I have obtained from reading it.
Offline kp  
#74 Posted : Tuesday, October 21, 2008 9:31:03 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

I'd once again like to thank Yada for introducing me to the "three doors" concept. I'll admit, it was so different from everything I'd ever been taught, I was skeptical at first. But having done my homework (as you are doing, Sirgodfrey), I became convinced of the truth of the matter, and the more I thought about it, the more sense it made, and the more awesome Yahweh's mercy proved to be. Now, I can't avoid references to it: they're everywhere I look. They show up in the most unlikely places, too. Here's a bit I recently wrote for the upcoming chapter of The Owner's Manual. Just taking scripture at face value, and following your nose to the logical conclusion, you can't help but see how Yahweh's three doors concept explains everything that didn't quite fit before.

Quote:
(887) Respect the devotion of your servants. “And if it happens that he [the servant who loves his master] says to you, ‘I will not go away from you,’ because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you, then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise.” (Deuteronomy 15:16-17) This is part of the Law of the Sabbatical year. At the end of six years of service, the one who had been sold into servitude would be free to go, staked and supplied with whatever it would take to get him on his feet for good (verses 13-14). At this point, the only “bonds” the master might have upon the servant would be those of thankfulness, loyalty, and love. He had no legal right to expect any more service from his former bondservant. The servant, likewise, had no legal right to ask anything further from his former master. Except for one thing…

Let’s back up a step. What had caused the “servant” to come into the master’s household in the first place? He had become “poor,” a euphemism, as I noted, for having sinned against God, incurring a spiritual debt he could not pay. His six years of service represent his mortal life as a fallen man. So in spiritual terms, we poor servants are, until the day we die, in the debt of the Master, He who paid the price of our redemption up front. Since “the wages of sin is death,” we are no longer in God’s debt after we’ve died. And since He has provided us with “all things that pertain to life and godliness” while we spend our days upon His earth, He too has done everything that could be reasonably expected of Him. We could then, at the end of our mortal lives, simply part company from God, no harm, no foul. There would be neither friendship nor enmity; neither punishment nor reward; neither relationship nor responsibility. The servant’s labors cease at his death, but this state of affairs is neither heaven nor hell. It’s something else entirely: the second of “three doors”—the three possible eternal destinations I spoke of in Precepts #865 and #866 above. It is simply ceasing to exist. No more pain or sorrow. But no more joy or fulfillment, either.

But what is that “one thing” I spoke of, that loophole in the Law of the Sabbatical year? What is the servant who has fulfilled his contract legally entitled to demand of the master who has likewise kept his end of the bargain? This servant may, at his own discretion and volition, request to make his place of service in the master’s household permanent—extend his contract indefinitely, so to speak. Why would he do this? Isn’t freedom to be desired above all things? No, it isn’t. It all depends on what you wish to be set free from. Sure, freedom from tyranny, oppression, fruitless toil, and pain would be a good thing, but life under our Master Yahweh is none of those things. It is, rather, a time of joyful labor, of justice tempered by mercy, of loving, nurturing relationships—things no sane person desires to be “freed” from. You may protest that life for the vast majority of mankind answers to the former description, tyranny and oppression. True, but that’s not because Yahweh is a tyrant or oppressor. It’s because they have been serving some other master, some usurper. It is tragic indeed to spend your life serving someone or something other than the God who bought you, but woe to the one who is responsible for your condition.

The servant, then, may ask to serve his master forever, continuing to do the same fulfilling work, maintaining the same loving relationships, enjoying the same peace and security he or she did before. The formal procedure—piercing the earlobe with an awl—involves blood and pain, for it is a picture of the price the Master originally paid for his redemption: the sacrifice of His Son, Yahshua, upon Calvary’s pole. But it is a privilege indeed for the servant to be counted worthy to partake in that sacrifice. Note that the choice is entirely up to the servant. The master apparently has no say in the matter: he is required by law to comply with the servant’s request. Amazingly, Yahweh has put limits on His own power here. He has made it illegal for Himself to refuse the servant’s appeal. (One who is not actually His bondservant, of course, has no such rights.) According to His own Law, Yahweh may neither compel the servant to stay, nor decline to honor the servant’s choice to remain with Him forever. The choice to enter “Door Number One” is ours to make. There’s only one word to describe a God who would arrange this awesome opportunity for us: Yahweh is Love.


kp
Offline Matthew  
#75 Posted : Tuesday, October 21, 2008 10:27:51 AM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Thank you guys, kp and Yada, for being so responding and sharing this with us. This little passage from the new chapter is awesome. This ride with Yah just gets better and better! I'm sending this passage to my mates now.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#76 Posted : Wednesday, October 22, 2008 5:59:05 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

interesting concerning the slave piece. however, it places too much emphasis on the choice of mankind. it completely disregards what scripture explicitly states about those that Yah has chosen for Himself, as His people and special treasure.
Offline Matthew  
#77 Posted : Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:07:23 AM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
sirgodfrey wrote:
interesting concerning the slave piece. however, it places too much emphasis on the choice of mankind. it completely disregards what scripture explicitly states about those that Yah has chosen for Himself, as His people and special treasure.

Am I misundersatnding you sirgodfrey, are you saying that kp's interpretation is incorrect, or that even though it's right it places too much emphasis on our choice and not on "those that Yah has chosen for Himself, as His people and special treasure?"

To me kp's interpretation is spot on, it's the best I've seen and I think it lines up perfectly with Scripture. We can say Yah has predestined eternal life for those that choose Him, but I think it's wrong to say He said "you wil be saved, you will not, you will be saved, you will not" and then He goes about trying to draw them near regardless of their hearts and decisions they make. Yahweh knows our hearts, and He will answer those who seek, those who knock and those who call out. Some don't even know where to look but yet they yearn in their hearts for the Truth.

Many Jews won't be saved even though they were a part of the "chosen" race because of their unbelief.

What kp says does not contradict Scripture, the Jews are still the apple of His eye, He does however have other fruit in His basket. They are the chosen people to carry the signs, He could've chosen any other ethnic group but He chose the Hebrew people. Us, as Gentiles, have been given the privilege of having the option of being adopted children, and if we make that decision to remain with Him forever then Yahweh will uphold His side of the bargain, He cannot deny our request. I believe that's what kp was saying. To me it links up with Scripture because Yahweh has promised eternal life to those that love Him and believe in His Messiah, John 3:16.

sirgodfrey, please correct me if I misunderstood you.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#78 Posted : Wednesday, October 22, 2008 2:18:03 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

don't get me wrong. the piece that kp wrote was very nice, nice indeed. very insightful. but you are spot on. scripture explicitly states in numerous places that He is involved with the saving of certain individuals. I am not saying that people don't have a choice, by no means, but scripture teaches both. just like it is hard to understand the "composite unity" of YHWH Himself, it is hard to understand how both of these truths exist. you can't put both in the same basket or you will burn yourself out trying to figure it out. but you also can't disregard the very explicit statements of Yah's choice of persons.... just like He chose the Jews.
Offline Matthew  
#79 Posted : Wednesday, October 22, 2008 4:44:20 PM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
sirgodfrey, under the thread Choice or Predestination? kp's post #3 and Swalchy's post #12 provide some decent answers to this topic of "predestination," bitnet also provides some insight a number of times throughout the thread.
Offline James  
#80 Posted : Friday, October 24, 2008 12:57:33 PM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 215 time(s) in 149 post(s)
I agree with Matthew and Ken on this, Yah's chosen, are not chosen to be saves, but are chosen to serve as examples, and messengers some will be saved, but some will also be lost. Yahweh choose them, but if they do not chose him as well, then they will not be saved. Man's choice is the final decider.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Big Rich  
#81 Posted : Friday, October 24, 2008 4:50:14 PM(UTC)
Big Rich
Joined: 9/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 62
Location: Indiana

sirgodfrey wrote:
interesting concerning the slave piece. however, it places too much emphasis on the choice of mankind. it completely disregards what scripture explicitly states about those that Yah has chosen for Himself, as His people and special treasure.


Wouldn't Yah's choice be shown in this story by His initial selection of the person as His slave? Maybe I'm just stretching the metaphor too far, but I'm assuming that the slave got to be with the Master in this story because the Master selected him to work for Him.
Yah can certainly choose this guy as His special treasure in these circumstances and, being outside of time, set plans ahead of time for what this person will do after he accepts Him, due his His foreknowledge of how the choice will turn out without this metaphor being wrong.

Excellent passage though. I look forward to the whole thing being posted. I definitely never saw that in Deuteronomy before...
Offline Matthew  
#82 Posted : Thursday, September 17, 2009 10:21:38 AM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Ok guys, so what happens with Door 2 fellows? When they die do they fall asleep (no sense of time, no sense of being) until Judgement Day? Then at Judgement Day do they wake up to realise their fate, or do they just pass into non-existence without ever knowing the truth?
Or are they aware of their fate while asleep in the grave?

The reason I question this is because of verses 4 and 5 of Revelation 20: They [beheaded martyrs] came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

Do those who worship the Beast go straight to Door 3? Because then Revelation 20:5 would refer to Door 3 guys and not to Door 2. But I'm not sure, because verses sush as Romans 14:11 and Philippians 2:11 say that "every tongue will confess that Yahshua is the Master," which implies that every person will honour Yahshua and acknowledge Him as Master, whether or not they're heading for Door 1, 2 or 3.
Offline James  
#83 Posted : Thursday, September 17, 2009 1:50:25 PM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 215 time(s) in 149 post(s)
Matthew wrote:
Ok guys, so what happens with Door 2 fellows? When they die do they fall asleep (no sense of time, no sense of being) until Judgement Day? Then at Judgement Day do they wake up to realise their fate, or do they just pass into non-existence without ever knowing the truth?
Or are they aware of their fate while asleep in the grave?

The reason I question this is because of verses 4 and 5 of Revelation 20: They [beheaded martyrs] came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

Do those who worship the Beast go straight to Door 3? Because then Revelation 20:5 would refer to Door 3 guys and not to Door 2. But I'm not sure, because verses sush as Romans 14:11 and Philippians 2:11 say that "every tongue will confess that Yahshua is the Master," which implies that every person will honour Yahshua and acknowledge Him as Master, whether or not they're heading for Door 1, 2 or 3.

I think a good argument can be made on both sides as far as if they are aware during the time between when they die and when the day of judgment. I personally think that they will be essentially in a state of unconsciousness until the day of judgment.

As far as those that worship the beast, it sounds to me as if they have leagued themselves with the adversary and therefor will be cast into the abyss with the adversary. I think for people at that point the third option is taken away, and it is a choice of heaven or hell. Yahweh has given them everything they need to make the choice, and if they take the mark of the beast then they have made the choice to league with the beast.

I could be wrong, and hope for their sake that I am.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Walt  
#84 Posted : Wednesday, April 14, 2010 4:08:48 PM(UTC)
Walt
Joined: 10/26/2008(UTC)
Posts: 374
Man

With the truth of "the wages of sin is death" rather than torment in hell, it makes the saying:
Life's a bi * ch, and then you die"
a reality for the majority of humanity
Offline edStueart  
#85 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2010 2:30:58 PM(UTC)
edStueart
Joined: 10/29/2008(UTC)
Posts: 370
Location: Philadelphia

Walt wrote:
Life's a bi * ch, and then you die"


"Colloquially stated, Captain, but essentially correct."

(Mr. Spock to Captain Kirk)
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline cgb2  
#86 Posted : Wednesday, August 4, 2010 7:56:49 AM(UTC)
cgb2
Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 689
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 18 post(s)
I've been listening to audio version of the book of Hanok (Enoch) at:
http://www.wefoundtruth.com/HanokComplete.html

Seems in Chapter 22 it mentions all 3 doors, and specifically mentions ones who simply die and are never raised/judged.

22:13 of the sinners. And this has been made for the spirits of men who shall not be righteous but sinners, who are defiled , and of the lawless they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be punished in the day of judgment nor shall they be raised from then on.

It's said that the Book of Enoch was considered scripture early on, and even mentions the book in RC. Read that during the 300's both Revelation and Enoch were not included in canon, but later on Revelation made the cut.
Offline degner  
#87 Posted : Wednesday, August 18, 2010 1:21:49 AM(UTC)
degner
Joined: 8/17/2010(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Germany

The Heaven or Hell concept was always something couldn't accept because it means you have to love and obey God in order to escape hell which turnes honest love into forced love which in turn equals slavery. So I was really delighted when I read about the three doors concept which seems extemely fair and (unlike the two doors concept) provides free choice.
However, in Future History chapter 29 Ken writes:

"The default is death; we must choose to receive either eternal life or everlasting damnation.
In the context of the Last Days, that fact makes these next two passages really scary. First, "If anyone worships the beast [that is, the Antichrist or the demon who inhabits him] and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:9-11) That warning applies to everyone alive on earth during the last half of the Tribulation, when, as you’ll recall, the "mark of the beast" will be instituted as a sign of submission to the Antichrist and his Satanic world government. In order to avoid door number three, people will have to become outlaws, fugitives, rebels against the system. Many will pay for their convictions with their lives--a small price to pay, however, for avoiding eternal torment and gaining everlasting life.
Second, Yahshua explained what will happen to those left alive at the end of the Tribulation. They will be separated as a herdsman separates his sheep from the goats. "And these [the "goats"] will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous [that is, the "sheep"] into eternal life." (Matthew 25:46) Why is this so terrifying? Because He has apparently ruled out non-choice (leading to door number two) as an option for these last hardy survivors. I realize it’s an argument from silence which makes it hard to be dogmatic, but it appears that by the time the King takes His throne, no one on earth will still be sitting on the fence trying to ignore the world of spiritual things. No one will be "merely wicked," marked for destruction. If by this time you haven’t chosen to reciprocate Yahweh’s love, then you will be counted as His enemy, actively engaged in the futile work of Satan."

In other words the 3 doors are only available to those who have died before the Tribulation, right?

According to the timeline provided in the Appendix the beginning of the Tribulation is set for 2026. All those who are currently younger that lets say 70 years will most probably still be alive between 2026 and 2033. In essence for most of todays people door number two won't be available which puts us into the same misery of having eternal salvation or eternal punishment as only choices again.

Am I correct in that assumption?

I'm afraid all the talk and joy about the three doors and free choice is irrelevant for most of the todays folks.
Offline Prodigal  
#88 Posted : Wednesday, August 18, 2010 3:38:21 AM(UTC)
Prodigal
Joined: 2/24/2010(UTC)
Posts: 65
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Not necessarily. I think KP's point is that Yahweh is forcing our choice (or their choice, I suppose) at that point. He's eliminating the middle ground of undecisiveness by making it quite clear to ourselves and everyone around whose we are. I'm thinking those last 7 years are, by necessity, going to be much different than the previous 6993. Practically speaking, it makes sense. The Antichrist will have authority over the whole earth and those that submit to that authority will, by default, be joining themselves to Halal's spirit. Those resisting (or know enough to) will need to seek out Yahweh to do it, thus joining themselves to His Spirit. I don't see a lot of room for a middle ground.

On the other hand, if I'm missing something and there is a middle ground yet, the passage in question must only be talking about doors 1 and 3, not eliminating the possibility of door 2, only neglecting to mention it.

Matt
Offline kp  
#89 Posted : Wednesday, August 18, 2010 6:55:18 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Interesting discussion. Although my opinion doesn't by any stretch settle the matter, the evidence leads me to believe that the three doors (and specifically door #2---dissipation) will still be in operation well into the second half of the Tribulation. But from the Abomination of Desolation (which I believe will occur 30 days before the midpoint, or 1,290 days from the end) onward, it's pretty clear that pressure will be brought to bear to get off the fence. Taking the mark of the beast will certainly consign you to door #3, and sheltering the King's brethren (Israel) in defiance of the Antichrist will admit you to eternity through door #1---even if you don't really know who King Yahshua is! But other than those criteria, it's all a little fuzzy.

The interesting subject---one that I didn't really address in FH---is what happens to the three door theory during the Millennium. Satan and his demons will during this time be locked up in the Abyss, so it would seem door #3 will be eliminated as a choice during the entire Kingdom period. Maybe. Door #1---alignment with Yahshua---is the whole point of the Kingdom age, and it's pretty clear (based on prophecy of widespread temporal blessings) that most people will enjoy a real familial relationship with God during this time---and most everybody else will be pretending to. Overt rebellion will be rare and will be met with immediate consequences. (I have no idea what "door" those consequences will lead to, but I suspect #3, even though Satan is locked up. Can't be dogmatic, though.)

But the end-of-Millennium battle, Magog II (Rev 20:7-9), reveals that multitudes born during the Millennium will have been living under the Messiah's reign in a state of repressed rebellion, not acting on their true feelings, but not forming a relationship with Yahweh's Messiah, either. They won't be "judged" for their errant attitudes however, for then as now, God is not willing that any should perish: Repentance is an option left on the table until the very end. And we can deduce that relatively few will die of natural causes during the Millennium, making the very existence of door #2 during the Millennium more or less a moot point. But since the devil will be released at the end of the kingdom age, Magog II will (like Armageddon) tend to force the populace of earth into one camp or another---indwelled either with Yahweh's Spirit, or with Satan's.

The basic difference between now and then (from the point of view of eternal destinies) is that there will be no "religious victims" during the Millennial Kingdom. Everyone will be aware of the Messiah-King and His role in mankind's redemption---a subject Satan works very hard to suppress today. So the primary reason for the relative mercy of door #2 will have been eliminated from view by the very nature of the age.

Further thoughts, anyone?

kp
Offline Matthew  
#90 Posted : Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:38:22 AM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Excuse my NIV but what of Revelation 14:9-12?

Quote:
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.


What do you guys make of the phrase "there is no rest or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name"?

Below is Swalchy's translation on the same passage:

Quote:
And another Heavenly messenger and envoy of the Supreme One, a third one, accompanied and followed them, saying and teaching, maintaining and exhorting, advising and directing, affirming and pointing out in a great and powerful, mighty, splendid and strong sound, tone and voice, “If a certain someone pays homage and reverence, veneration, uttermost respect and admiration to the beast and wild animal, and to his image and representation, form and likeness, and does not refuse or reject, but takes and receives, accepts and acquires, obtains and seizes, procures and apprehends, selects and chooses, grasps and clings to, claims and admits the mark and stamp, inscription and sign, imprinted designation, brand, and idolatrous image upon his forehead or upon his hand, he himself shall also drink and consume, suck up and absorb from out of the wine of the wrath and anger, fury and intense rage of God*, the one that is mixed, mingled and poured out undiluted, pure and at full strength in the cup and drinking vessel of His anger and fury, temper and indignation, and he will be tested and mentally distressed and harassed in, by and with fire and sulphur in front of, before and in the presence of Set-Apart and cleansed Heavenly messengers and envoys of the Supreme One, and in front of, before and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their testing and mental distressing and harassing goes up, rises and ascends into eternity, forever and ever, for the unbroken age and the perpetuity of time, and they have and possess no rest or refreshment, intermission, cessation or relief day or night, those who pay homage and reverence, veneration, uttermost respect and admiration to the beast and wild animal, and to his image and representation, form and likeness, and whoever does not refuse or reject, but takes and receives, accepts and acquires, obtains and seizes, procures and apprehends, selects and chooses, grasps and clings to, claims and admits the mark and stamp, inscription and sign, imprinted designation, brand, and idolatrous image of his name and title, character and person, reputation and authority.” Here exists and is present the courageous endurance and steadfastness, active perseverance and heroic resistance of the set-apart and cleansed ones, the ones keeping and retaining, holding onto and clinging to, guarding and observing, obeying and watching over the commands and precepts, orders and charges, regulations and commissions of God*, and the trust and reliance, conviction of the truth and confidence, proof and certainty, dependence and reality of Yahushua*.
Offline bigritchie  
#91 Posted : Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:08:10 PM(UTC)
bigritchie
Joined: 4/15/2010(UTC)
Posts: 305
Location: USA

I was self-employed for about 10 years before I retired.

There are basically 3 kinds of Employees.

#1 The one who called me boss, obeyed me, loved my business and advanced my "kingdom"

#2 The other called me boss, but only obeyed me for a paycheck and because he feared me I would not fire him.

#3 The other called me boss, but never did anything I said, so I "fired" them

Employee 1 was loved and promoted and loved by my family and in some cases considered family.

Employee 2 was basically just a warm body, whom I would cast out for a Employee 1 type. He stayed in the Kingdom but was the least of my kingdom.

Employee 3 was fired in front of Employee 2 to keep him motivated.

Out of the Hundreds of Employee I went through in 10 years, there was maybe 1-2 number ones, probably 10-15 number 2's, and the rest were fit only to be fired.

Edited by user Thursday, August 19, 2010 1:38:00 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline bitnet  
#92 Posted : Thursday, August 19, 2010 3:57:12 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

You must be a tough boss to work for, bigritchie! And by "fit to be fired" you weren't taking it literally, were you? ;-)
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline kp  
#93 Posted : Thursday, August 19, 2010 4:46:59 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Enlightening comparison, Bigrichie. I too was self employed for almost a decade, but for most of that time, I had only one employee, who by your definition, I'd call a #1. The symbolism, of course, puts me, as the employer, in the shoes of God. And that's where it gets interesting. I treated her with respect, gave her every reason to respect me and feel secure in her position, and let her participate (under supervision) in the real work of my profession (in my case, graphic design) so she could learn and grow. But mainly, her job was to represent me before a world of potential clients and resources: she took care of my "business" so I could concentrate on doing what only I could really do---solve problems for people. She was a valuable asset to me, but I was essential to her---without me, there would have been no job. And when I "ascended" to another phase of my career, I felt I could leave the business in her hands. (Is any of this ringing any bells?)

Whether she made a go of it or not depended completely on how well she had paid attention to what I had been doing in her presence for the last six or seven years. Our Master too has left us to take care of His kingdom for a while. Our willingness to learn from Him will make the difference between success and failure, between carrying on in the spirit of Philadelphia or falling into the traps of Sardis and Laodicea.

kp
Offline Matthew  
#94 Posted : Thursday, August 19, 2010 6:34:44 AM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Nice post kp! It's amazing how every day life situations can be used to understand Yahweh better. He, after all, loves to use metaphors to help us understand Him and His ways better. Psalm 119:15 "I meditate on your precepts and consider your ways."
Offline bigritchie  
#95 Posted : Thursday, August 19, 2010 1:42:21 PM(UTC)
bigritchie
Joined: 4/15/2010(UTC)
Posts: 305
Location: USA

bitnet wrote:
Shalom,

You must be a tough boss to work for, bigritchie! And by "fit to be fired" you weren't taking it literally, were you? ;-)


I just try and put things in a more simple manner that we can understand.

I think alot of times we tend to "over spiritualize" thing instead of just using good old fashion common sense.

After being self-employed and now being retired, I would rather be beaten with a baseball bat then deal with the general public or lazy employees again.

(and yes I wish I could have actually "fired" some of the number 3's hehe)
Offline Richard  
#96 Posted : Sunday, August 22, 2010 12:09:45 PM(UTC)
Richard
Joined: 1/19/2010(UTC)
Posts: 695
Man
United States

Thanks: 4 times
Was thanked: 8 time(s) in 7 post(s)
bigritchie wrote:
I would rather be beaten with a baseball bat then deal with the general public or lazy employees again.


Brother, I hear that!

Richard
Offline jasonc65  
#97 Posted : Friday, October 8, 2010 1:53:17 PM(UTC)
jasonc65
Joined: 10/7/2010(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: 19809

William wrote:
I've read both the first chapter where the quote came from in the orignal post and the Thanatos (separation) chapter. I have to STRONGLY disagree with the concept of 3 doors. The author has in NO WAY proven the soul of someone can just dissappear if he chooses neither God nor Satan. All of the examples given (and there are very few, yet he claims there are hundreds) do not say anything like this--it is solely his stretching his interpretation of the verse that allows him to believe in this theory. I looked at the definitions he gives for all the words/verses, and none of them really say what he is saying. I suggest you reread the sections and see if it blatently says there are 3 ways--you won't find it without "reading" more into the verses.

This is a very dangerous theory that can "comfort" people into NOT choosing God. They can just say, "I'd rather dissapper than go to hell or choose to live for God (and seemingly live a "boring" life)." In all my readings of the Bible, it has always been clear that there are only TWO roads - one narrow (choosing Jesus) and one wide (leading to death and destruction)--remember? So where does it say explicitly that there is a third road?? Why didn't Jesus teach on this and make it clear--instead, He was pretty clear about choosing Him or, by default, choosing Satan.

There is no where where it is described that those cast into the lake of fire are "poof" just gone and some remain--again, that is a very weakly supported view of the author with no scriptual basis. He quoted a verse or two, but LOOK at the verse--it doesn't say that--the author does.

If you can prove me wrong, PLEASE do so--with concrete, easily understood scripture so that I can see which verses everyone is using to prove this theory and read them for myself. Who knows, you might change my mind and I will let you know if you do so--but I doubt that the scriptures CLEARLY and bluntly show a third door option.

I AM NOT against the author or here to cause trouble--I like this site and learn a lot from it. I am against this particularly dangerous theory though.

In Christ,

William

If I recall, Jesus said those who were not for him were against him. I see no indication of a third choice.
Offline James  
#98 Posted : Friday, December 10, 2010 3:31:32 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 215 time(s) in 149 post(s)
I think with all the disappearing threads we had, this one fell through the cracks and never got a response, so i thought i would bring it to people's attention.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline cgb2  
#99 Posted : Friday, December 10, 2010 7:43:01 AM(UTC)
cgb2
Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 689
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 18 post(s)
I still have yet to sort out 1) sleep until the resurection, or 2) go to heaven - after physical death

One verse that fit's nicely with 3 doors...and sorry I don't have time to look up and post actual:

In that day many will be raised, some to everlasting life, some to everlasting contempt

Note many - not all, and then those many to door 1 or door 3, with door 2 implied (not all).
Offline RidesWithYah  
#100 Posted : Friday, December 10, 2010 2:30:55 PM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

Quote:
I still have yet to sort out 1) sleep until the resurection, or 2) go to heaven - after physical death


This was put together by a close friend of mine. Hope it helps.
STATE OF THE DEAD: DEAD AND ALIVE?

1. Why did Yahweh give His only begotten Son? John 3:16

2. What does Yahshua give to those who follow Him? John 10:27-28

3. In whom is the life eternal? 1 John 5:11

4. Who only has this life? 1 John 5:12, John 5:24

5. By what figure does the Bible represent death? 1 Thess 4:13; 1 Cor 15:20; John 11:11-14

6. Where does Daniel represent the dead as sleeping? Dan. 12: 2; also Eccl 3:20, 9:10)

7. What does the dead know abut his family? Job 14:21

8. What becomes of man’s thoughts at death? Ps 146:4

9. Do the dead know anything? Eccl 9:5

10. Do the dead take part in earthly things? Eccl 9:6

11. How much does one know of Yahweh when dead? Ps 6:5

12. Are not the righteous dead in heaven praising Yahweh? Acts 2: 34; Ps 115:17

13. What must take place before the dead can praise Yahweh? Isa 26: 19

14. When did the psalmist say he would be satisfied? Ps 17:15

15. If there is no resurrection what would be the condition of those fallen asleep in Yahshua? 1 Cor 15:16-18

16. When will be the resurrection of the righteous? 1 The 4:16
Users browsing this topic
3 Pages<123>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.