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Offline Theophilus  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, July 23, 2008 4:11:21 AM(UTC)
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I was sharing with a Rabbinical ex-Mesianic Jew and a Christian my understanding of Yahweh's nature thinking of the the illustration used by KP and Yada of the three forms of sea water (Water, steam, and an ice figure). One responded with Yahshua's quote of Psalm 22 rcorded in Aramaic. The Christian asked me the following:

Quote:
Theophilus ... exactly how is your viewpoint different from Modalism ?

The reason I continue to believe that Jesus was more than a simple manifestation of the Shekinah as the burning bush, and a distinct person, was because 1) He could be tempted to sin (temptation scene in desert, Matthew 4) and 2) His prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane when he said 'my will, not thine' be done. If he was simply a manifestation of the Father, as a TV image is a manifestation of the man being filmed, there could be no distinction between Jesus's will and the Fathers will. The fact that there is the possibility of temptation or the opposition of two wills indicates the presence of two distinct wills, and therefore two distinct persons.

Jesus could say 'I and the Father are one' because he perfectly submitted his will to the Father in all things, which is a different thing entirely from not having a will of his own to submit in the first place.


I was curious how KP, Yada or readers familiar with their works?

I'm pondering the question, and think of:

-Genesis and the creation of humankind in which Yahweh Elohim speaks as a We and of the male and females as a reflection of elohim's nature. A reflection of one elohim's masculine and feminine nature (Yahshua and Qodesh Ruach)

-The Shema in which not Yahweh God/El, but Yahweh God/Elohinu or Elohim? is one(united singular) /echad.

What I'm not sufficently familar with Modalism to specifically address whether I've described Modalism or not?

It seems to me that Yahweh possesses at least the two differing aspects (paternal and maternal), that Yahshua's incarnation represented a difference in that once in human born flesh Yahshua then possessed a soul which could be seperated from the Set Apart Spirit and the flesh and descend to Sheol. Did Yahshua perfectly submit to the undiminished Yahweh (The Father) or once in the flesh did this diminsihed manifestation of Yah possess a disitinct will and personhood?
Offline BiynaYahu  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:45:48 AM(UTC)
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Peace Everyone,

Forgive me if I speak out of turn, but is this not where the import of YAHUshua the annointed implement of YAH coming in true flesh becomes important because it is the flesh which rails against the spirit. The Spirit is all YAH, and the flesh all YAHUshua. So, maybe it was the will of his flesh "to live" which he was praying about.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Someone who does not dearly love or welcome, entertain, look fondly upon or cherish people with strong affection or highly esteem them with great favour, goodwill or benevolence, be loyal to or greatly adore them has not known or understood, perceived or realized, noticed or discerned, discovered or observed, experienced or ascertained, learned about or distinguished, comprehended, acknowledged or recognized God*, for concerning this, God* is and exists as brotherly love and affection, good will, esteem and benevolence.
Offline Theophilus  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, July 23, 2008 9:28:45 AM(UTC)
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BiynaYahu wrote:
Peace Everyone,

Forgive me if I speak out of turn, but is this not where the import of YAHUshua the annointed implement of YAH coming in true flesh becomes important because it is the flesh which rails against the spirit. The Spirit is all YAH, and the flesh all YAHUshua. So, maybe it was the will of his flesh "to live" which he was praying about.
Correct me if I'm wrong.


Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this BiynaYahu. It's a difficult subject for me to wrap my brain around. I realized that the link I was provided on wikipedia didn't carry over so will add it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modalism

I understand the need for Yahweh to provide an acceptable sacrafice, that Yahushua entered timespace in the flesh to shed His blood and His soul to endure the penalty of Sheol for those who would be justified by trust in Yahweh and enjoy restored fellowship. It seems to me if my understanding of Yahshua as a diminished aspect of Yahweh in human flesh is correct, He would embody a different aspect of the one Yahweh than would the diminished aspect that manifests as the maternal Set Apart Spirit or undiminshed heavenly Father. Would manifesting as a different aspect result in a difference in will at least as Yahweh prayed in Gethsemene or during the crucifixion when He quoted Psalm 22? I'm still considering whether embodying a different aspect of Yah also implies a three persons trinitarian Godhead or what is indeed the difference?
Offline Matthew  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, September 2, 2008 10:04:28 AM(UTC)
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I have been waiting for a response to Theo's first post in regards to the questions in the quote bar, especially to the line "the fact that there is the possibility of temptation or the opposition of two wills indicates the presence of two distinct wills, and therefore two distinct persons."

If Yahushua is Yahuweh, why did He need to pray to Yahuweh? Why did He have to submit His will to the Father's? Yahushua never professes to be the Father, but rather that He is One with the Father.
Offline kp  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, September 3, 2008 7:02:25 AM(UTC)
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I don't like to get sucked into "movements" and "theological systems" like modalism. They all to often seem to be based on symantic nitpicking in which the opponents aren't really speaking the same language. But I had a minor epiphany just this morning on this very subject, working in the section on the Day of Atonement in the upcoming chapter 10 of The Owner's Manual. I hope plucking this out of its surrounding context doesn't make it totally incomprehensible...

Quote:
(851) The High Priest shall burn incense on the Day of Atonement. “Then he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from the altar before Yahweh, with his hands full of sweet incense beaten fine, and bring it inside the veil. And he shall put the incense on the fire before Yahweh, that the cloud of incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the Testimony, lest he die.” (Leviticus 16:12-13) If you’ll recall, the altar of incense stood immediately in front of the veil separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place. Normally (every morning and every evening, in fact), incense would be burned upon this small altar—a picture of constant and recurring prayer and intercession. But today, on Yom Kippurim, the incense was to be brought inside the veil—into the Most Holy Place—and burned in a censer. Why? Because Yahweh’s Shekinah Glory was said to abide between the two cherubim atop the mercy seat on the ark of the Covenant. At this point, the blood of the bull (which would atone for the sins of the Priest) had not yet been sprinkled upon the mercy seat, so the process of atonement was not complete. This means that Aaron or his successor would have had to walk into the very presence of God in a sinful, unreconciled state—and that would be a fatal move. So Yahweh provided a way to insulate His glory from fallen man until the task of atonement could be performed.

In case you haven’t caught the significance of all this, the incense, this insulating intercessor between God and man, is a picture of Yahshua’s earthly life prior to Calvary: God Himself walking among us fallen mortals. How He did this without inadvertently killing us by His very glorious presence is one of the great theological conundrums of the ages. Moses reports that the cloud of incense was to “cover” the mercy seat, where the Shekinah dwelt. This is not kapar (the verb from which we get “atonement"), but kasah, which denotes “to cover, conceal, hide, or clothe.” (Strong's) In Yahshua, Yahweh’s awesome deity was concealed, hidden, and covered by being clothed in mortal flesh. And like the smoke of incense, it wasn’t made to last, but this condition persisted long enough for Him to make atonement for mankind. Hallelujah!


kp
Offline Matthew  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, January 6, 2009 1:53:36 AM(UTC)
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I've been quickly labeled a heretic on a Christian forum (mainly used by Calvinists/Lutherans) when I mentioned Yada's passage in the three forms of water. They love to categorise everything, from beliefs in the Trinity to beliefs in the order of the Tribulation events, for example Historical Premillennialism, Dispensational Premillennialism, Classical Premillennilism, Pretribulational Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, Amillennialism, the list goes on. It's very confusing. But what really annoys me is that they often accuse me of "proof-texting" when I know without a shadow of doubt that I take more into consideration than most of them, I take into consideration things like context, historical, spiritural, prophetic, and symbolic importance, and use the whole Bible, from beginning to end, and that annoys them. And even if I list the traits of Muhammad (you know, mass murderer, slave trade, etc.) as mentioned on Prophet of Doom and any other website concerning Islam I get quickly told to read academical books by accredited scholars. HAHA, I laugh!

Anyway, what I'm really trying to say is that the prophet Isaiah squashed the idea of the Trinity concept, most notably in the chapters 42 to about 48, here are a simple list a few important verses:

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am Yahuweh, and apart from me there is no savior. Is Yahuweh saying that Yahuweh is Salvation? I think so!

Isaiah 44:6 This is what Yahuweh says— Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty [Yahuweh of hosts, or Yahuweh of Armies, not sure how to edit this one]: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Now match this with Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Isaiah 44:24-28 This is what Yahuweh says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am Yahuweh, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, who foils the signs of false prophets and makes fools of diviners, who overthrows the learning of the wise and turns it into nonsense, who carries out the words of his servants and fulfills the predictions of his messengers, who says of Jerusalem, 'It shall be inhabited,' of the towns of Judah, 'They shall be built,' and of their ruins, 'I will restore them,' who says to the watery deep, 'Be dry, and I will dry up your streams,' who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt," and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid."' Yahuweh claims to be the Redeemer and to of made all things. Link this to Colossians 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. What about the list of things the messengers say, does not Yahushua mention any of them?

Isaiah 45:5-6 I am Yahuweh, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am Yahuweh, and there is no other. Yahuweh is One God.

Isaiah 45:18 For this is what Yahuweh says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited— he says: "I am Yahuweh, and there is no other." Again, Yahuweh is One God, and the part of Colossians 1:15-17 fits here again.

Isaiah 48:17 This is what Yahuweh says— your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am Yahuweh your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go." Link this to John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Offline Bridget  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, January 6, 2009 4:58:37 AM(UTC)
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Wasn't Yashua praying to Yah to show us the way?
To be an example for us? Didn't he say he knew already that father heard all of his prayers, but he prayed for our sake
so that we would be able to believe and to know?

Offline edStueart  
#8 Posted : Thursday, January 8, 2009 1:01:59 AM(UTC)
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Theophilus wrote:
I was sharing with a Rabbinical ex-Mesianic Jew and a Christian...


Sounds like the set-up to a joke:

"A Rabbi, a Messianic Jew and a Christian walk into a bar..."

(Sorry couldn't pass that one up)

Seriously, Theo, was this one person (Rabbinical ex-Mesianic Jew and a Christian) or two people?

(Talk about modalism!)
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline Theophilus  
#9 Posted : Thursday, January 8, 2009 2:50:55 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
Seriously, Theo, was this one person (Rabbinical ex-Mesianic Jew and a Christian) or two people?


It does now that you mention it. There were actually two different people I was discussing this with. The Christian is a gentleman, the Rabbinical Jew is a lady was formerly a Messianic Jew who decided Paul was wrong for condoning the violation of the Torah and later that "Yeshua" was guilty of this and other shortcomings. She describes herself as a "reconstructionist" Jew and is in the process of becoming a Rabbi.
Offline edStueart  
#10 Posted : Friday, January 9, 2009 3:41:20 AM(UTC)
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Theophilus wrote:
Messianic Jew who decided Paul was wrong for condoning the violation of the Torah


What are the 'violations' she is citing?

Writing letters to the Corinthians, the Ephesians, but not his parents?

Theophilus wrote:
She describes herself as a "reconstructionist" Jew and is in the process of becoming a Rabbi.


Is it just me who sees that there may be a problem with the first word in that sentence and the last word in that sentence?

;-)
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline Theophilus  
#11 Posted : Friday, January 9, 2009 6:30:25 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
What are the 'violations' she is citing?

Writing letters to the Corinthians, the Ephesians, but not his parents?


I like your thinking on this one. I recall one "violation" brought up was failing to follow the instruction to "be fruitful and multiply" That is barring recent fiction Yahushua didn't marry and have children as she believes he was suppose to to fulfill this instruction. Of course that logic precludes foreknowledge of a mission to atone for sin as the sacrificial Lamb of Yah leaving behind an earthly family for others to care for.

The main charge against Yahshua's messianic claims being that He didn't accomplish all messianic prophecies in the 2 BCE to 33 CE advent so her Rabbinic logic goes Yahshua couldn't be Messiah since war etc is still with us. She went on to charge Yahshua's only accomplishment having been to "anger the Romans." I suggested that she suffered from a case of mistaken Messianic identity quoted Yada's description from YY of the Messiah proclaimed by the Rabbi's:

Quote:
Quote:
We know 33 CE was a Yowbel because the last historically recorded Yowbel or Jubilee in Jerusalem was 133 CE. It was a very bad year for the Jews. They were fooled by their leading Rabbi, Akiba, the fellow who is said to have founded the religious sect known as the Masoretes. Despite his massive blunder of recognizing a false messiah and of being responsible for getting his people thrown out of their land for one thousand eight hundred years, Rabbi Akiba is still considered to be one of the greatest religious scholars in Jewish history. Somebody isn't thinking.

The object of the rabbi's acclaim was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kochba, which means "son of a star" (guess which one). He was a charismatic man, brilliant we are told, but also a brutal warlord. That fit the rabbinical aspirations of the messiah - a warrior who would deliver Jews from oppression while at the same time being an ordinary man who would remain beholden to the rabbis who had trumpeted his arrival. One of the justifications Rabbi Akiba positioned to assert that Bar Kochba was the messiah, was that he had risen to power in a Yowbel year of redemption, as was expected of him. So following the false Messiah, the duped Jews revolted against the Romans in 133. They caught the Tenth Legion by surprise and retook Jerusalem. In response to this revolt, Emperor Hadrian, in 135, turned Israel into what Ezekiel called a "valley of dry bones." He murdered two million Jews and exiled the rest, renaming the Land Palestina. Then sowed Judea with salt to render it worthless and barren. Therefore, 133 became the last recorded Yowbel. There weren't enough Jews or Israel left to do what was required after that time.


As for her being a lady Rabbi, apparently there is a segment of Rabbinical Judaism that will recognize her as such.
Offline bitnet  
#12 Posted : Friday, January 9, 2009 9:26:10 PM(UTC)
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Shalom,

I am learning that there are several denominations (and why not if Christianity and Islam are such?) of Judaism and as Theo said perhaps some segments may accept a she-rabbi. I've come to refer to all of them as rabbits... ;-)
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Matthew  
#13 Posted : Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:00:29 AM(UTC)
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I got given the list below when I was discussing the Set-Apart Spirit as being in a mother role to us, because of giving us Spiritual birth. The person listed numerous characterists of the Spirit and said they were more to the masculine, especially fatherly, side than the feminine side, but that's not what "bothered" me about the list. The part that got me were the first two points regarding the mind and will, this seems to indicate a separate "person" as the Trinity suggests. I just think mainstream Christians find is difficult when I, we, use the words "diminished manifestation."

Quote:
The Holy Spirit has the Characteristics of Personality:

• The Holy Spirit has a Mind:

Romans 8:27
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. (NIV)


• The Holy Spirit has a Will:

1 Corinthians 12:11
But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. (NASB)


It went on to list the Spirit has emotions (Ephesians 4:30 and Isaiah 63:10), gives joy (Luke 10:21, 1 Thessalonians 1:6), the Spirit convicts (John 16:8), leads (Romans 8:14), reveals truth (John 16:13), strengthens and encourages (Acts 9:31), comforts (John 14:16), helps us in our weakness (Romans 8:26), intercedes (Romans 8:26), searches the deep things of God (1 Corinthians 2:11), sanctifies (Romans 15:16), bears witness or testifies (Romans 8:16), forbids (Acts 16:6-7), can be lied to (Acts 5:3), can be resisted (Acts 7:51), can be blasphemed (Matthew 12:31-32), and can be quenched (1 Thessalonians 5:19). Here is the list.

Edited by user Thursday, January 22, 2009 3:03:37 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline kp  
#14 Posted : Thursday, January 22, 2009 4:07:06 AM(UTC)
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Anybody who thinks having a mind and a will are more masculine traits than feminine never had a godly mother like mine.

kp
Offline Matthew  
#15 Posted : Thursday, January 22, 2009 4:12:30 AM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
Anybody who thinks having a mind and a will are more masculine traits than feminine never had a godly mother like mine.


Those were my exact words when I was thinking up a response, I was thinking of my mother who fulfilled all those roles too.
Offline BiynaYahu  
#16 Posted : Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:34:59 AM(UTC)
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First it just seems to me that 1 Corinthians 12:11 is talking about God, as a whole, who is a spirit, and secondly all those traits listed seem like definite motherly traits anyway. I mean sure some could be either, but all could be mother. Though, as I read it again they just redouble in their motherlyness. Oh, yeah, I conjugate like crazy. I know it's not allowed in English, but I like it.
Someone who does not dearly love or welcome, entertain, look fondly upon or cherish people with strong affection or highly esteem them with great favour, goodwill or benevolence, be loyal to or greatly adore them has not known or understood, perceived or realized, noticed or discerned, discovered or observed, experienced or ascertained, learned about or distinguished, comprehended, acknowledged or recognized God*, for concerning this, God* is and exists as brotherly love and affection, good will, esteem and benevolence.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#17 Posted : Thursday, January 22, 2009 5:04:21 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
Though, as I read it again they just redouble in their motherlyness. Oh, yeah, I conjugate like crazy. I know it's not allowed in English, but I like it.


dude, this was so awesome. it gave me a good smile. thank you so much. lol
Offline In His Name  
#18 Posted : Thursday, January 22, 2009 6:08:16 PM(UTC)
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Hey if Shakespear can make up words, why not the rest us!
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline Matthew  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 2:46:42 AM(UTC)
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John 8:17-18 "And in your Torah also, it has been written that the witness of two men is true. I am One who witnesses concerning Myself, and the Father who sent Me witnesses concerning Me." Here it seems as if Yahshua is identifying Himself as someone completely separate from the Father, as if He is one person and the Father is one person. How do you guys read this passage?
Offline Matthew  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:05:28 AM(UTC)
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Thanks Swalchy :)

Sometimes I put effort in and search for the answer but today I just posted without considering a search.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 6:54:19 AM(UTC)
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ἀπό apo

of a state of separation, that is of distance

1) physical, of distance of place

2) temporal, of distance of time


could we also say that Yahushua was separated in the sense that He dwelt "in time" while The Father was outside of time? This word is particularly interesting and is the utmost enlightening. so glad that i came across this subject today. praise Yah, knowledge is awesome! :)
Offline sirgodfrey  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 6:58:34 AM(UTC)
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i found apo, but i can't find the word stello. if someone knows of a source, please inform me as i would be greatly appreciative.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#23 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:15:08 AM(UTC)
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oh my gosh, i think i may faint.

that is simply amazing. wow.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#24 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:20:00 AM(UTC)
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στελλω stello {stel'-lo} probably strengthened from the base of 2476; TDNT - 7:588,1074; v AV - avoid 1, withdraw (one's) self 1; 2 1) to set, place, set in order, arrange 1a) to fit out, to prepare, equip 1b) to prepare one's self, to fit out for one's self 1c) to fit out for one's own use 1d) to prepare one's self, to fit out for one's self 1e) to fit out for one's own use 1e1) arranging, providing for this, etc. 2) to bring together, contract, shorten 2a) to diminish, check, cause to cease 2b) to cease to exist 2c) to remove one's self, withdraw one's self, to depart 2d) to abstain from familiar intercourse with one

check this out.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#25 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:31:24 AM(UTC)
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don't know too much about histemi except for "to establish" or something like that. but i am sooo happy right now, i have come into a clearer understanding of the Maker and I am just so thrilled. wow. Dad is so caring. It is just so emotional because He told me some time ago that I needed more knowledge. I am just so thrilled at the moment. Thank you brothers and sisters for helping me to gain a clearer understanding of Dad, He is so amazing.
Offline Matthew  
#26 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:42:18 AM(UTC)
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As I was leaving home after lunch to go pick up the kids and then go to work I noticed Godfrey had logged in, I was expecting posts from him and looking forward to arriving at work and seeing what he posted, and hour and half later him and Swalchy really got to the bottom of who Yahushua is. Praise Yah!

Edit:

I also noticed a link to histemi in my initial study of it. SGF, which tools are you using to get meanings of words?
Offline In His Name  
#27 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:09:12 PM(UTC)
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Hey guys,

Is there one more step here?
Quote:
στελλω stello {stel'-lo} probably strengthened from the base of 2476; TDNT - 7:588,1074; v AV - avoid 1, withdraw (one's) self 1; 2 1) to set, place, set in order, arrange 1a) to fit out, to prepare, equip 1b) to prepare one's self, to fit out for one's self 1c) to fit out for one's own use 1d) to prepare one's self, to fit out for one's self 1e) to fit out for one's own use 1e1) arranging, providing for this, etc. 2) to bring together, contract, shorten 2a) to diminish, check, cause to cease 2b) to cease to exist 2c) to remove one's self, withdraw one's self, to depart 2d) to abstain from familiar intercourse with one


Is this not speaking of the death of Yahushua.

Amazing stuff.
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline sirgodfrey  
#28 Posted : Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:04:01 AM(UTC)
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Location: North Carolina

Matthew, I use the greek/hebrew lexicon on blueletterbible.org, but I have been seeing some bias in some meanings of words. it is a good tool, but one needs to be wary of such bias. when looking up the word stello, i did a google search on the strongs # and some site popped up that gave an awesome breakdown of the word. i will try and find it again and post the site here.

ps i am looking to broaden my tools for my personal study. i would like to get an extensive and thorough lexicon of greek/hebrew words.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#29 Posted : Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:14:26 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

alright, this is Godfrey reporting back to a one Mr. Matthew. Although I couldn't find the exact site that was used earlier, bibletools.org looks as though it may be helpful and also check out dabhand.org and the lexicon that they have handy. If you click on "bible tools" there is a box a little ways down the page that reads "strongs number to analyze." the rest is self-explanatory i believe :) much love to you brother.
Offline Matthew  
#30 Posted : Thursday, March 12, 2009 3:13:12 AM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
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Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Revelation 5:6-7 "Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne."

A case for Trinity? It's saying that the Lamb came and took the scroll of the right hand of Him sitting on the throne. Could it be saying that Yahweh has the figure of a man?

I was trying to find passages to link up Yahshua being Yahweh's right hand, the Psalms are filled with Messianic prophecies but each time within the Renewed Covenant it says Yahshua sat at the right hand of Yahweh, indicating two separate "persons."

Note: I'm not defending the pagan Trinity doctrine, but trying to ask questions from their point of view, hoping to resolve this one. I really just think it's all metaphorical in some cases, for instance sitting at the right hand is firstly implying that Yahshua is going to sit on the right side, and secondly that Yahshua is the authority of Yahweh and doing the work on behalf of Yahweh.
Offline edStueart  
#31 Posted : Thursday, March 12, 2009 7:12:36 AM(UTC)
edStueart
Joined: 10/29/2008(UTC)
Posts: 370
Location: Philadelphia

Matthew wrote:
I really just think it's all metaphorical in some cases, for instance sitting at the right hand is firstly implying that Yahshua is going to sit on the right side, and secondly that Yahshua is the authority of Yahweh and doing the work on behalf of Yahweh.



Perhaps the figure of speech "Matthew is my right hand man" is expressing the same sort of concept.
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline sirgodfrey  
#32 Posted : Thursday, March 12, 2009 7:15:29 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

hmmm. nice. thats good to contemplate ed.
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#33 Posted : Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:07:47 PM(UTC)
TRUTH B-TOLD
Joined: 3/7/2008(UTC)
Posts: 133
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Location: USA

Shalom Matthew,

I thought you might want to consider these passages from the book of Matthew. They show not only was Yahushua sitting on the right hand of Yahuweh, but also those that inhierit all that is his will be sitting there too.

Matt.25:31-34,41 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: vs.41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

May we all be found sitting on the right hand (the rightside) of Yahuweh.
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