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Offline Ruchamah  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2007 12:21:53 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
Ok...here is my challenge to the forum:

Please show me a Biblical pattern that SUPPORTS the pre-trib rapture teaching.

Example: thouogh ressurrection is not spoken of SPECIFICALLY in Torah, we see numerous PATTERNS:
1. Yitzchak SHOULD have died by his father's hand, but is *saved* at last second by voice from
hashamayim
2. Joseph is thrown into a pit, where no water was, a picture of entombment
3. Moshe is put in Nile,certain death, but is saved by Paroh's daughter

So that is what i mean by PATTERNS.
Let the games begin!
Ruch


If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline Jeannie  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2007 2:19:29 PM(UTC)
Jeannie
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Posts: 254
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Location: Florida
Well there is Enoch and Elijah for starters...if your talking about going to heaven without dying. Yahuweh's Migra's suggest the "rapture". There really is no way to understand the calling out without taking into account Yahuweh's 6+1 and the Migra's. It's petty much covered in YY and FH. This is the key that is missing from every other writting on this subject.
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Offline Ruchamah  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2007 3:12:25 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
Ok...Enoch..and he was saved from...?

And Elijah...he was saved from...?
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline Jeannie  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2007 4:44:16 PM(UTC)
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Location: Florida
This is taken from FH chapter 9

Quote:
"But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation." (I Thessalonians 5:1-8) Did you notice the shifting pronouns? You know that Christ’s coming will catch the world by surprise. You are not in the dark. But they will be caught unawares--they will not escape. There is a clear differentiation here between those who should be terrified about the coming Day of Yahweh (but aren’t) and those who needn’t be. Paul’s admonition is to be vigilant, sober minded, and equipped with faith, love, and hope. We who are "sons of light" have nothing to worry about.

Why? Because "God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing. (I Thessalonians 5:9-11) If the rapture were on God’s schedule for any time other than preceding the Tribulation, then these verses would be a lie. For the Tribulation is nothing if not a time of wrath upon the world. And for those who would insist that the Church, like Noah of old, will be kept from harm as it rides out this seven-year period of hell on earth (willfully forgetting about the multitudes of Tribulation martyrs mentioned in Revelation 6 and 7), then why in the world did Paul tell us we could comfort each other with the news? We were never given one word of instruction as to how to live through the Time of Jacob’s trouble, but a boatload of teaching on how to miss it all together.



This is from FH chapter 25

Quote:
A few days before this, Yahshua had been over on the Mount of Olives teaching a few of His disciples about the end of the beginning. He told them, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man [the title He invariably applied to Himself] will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. Mark 13:26-27) Yahshua is predicting that He will do things that no mere man could possibly do--unless He is also God. Either His is the name above all names, or He’s nuts.

Oh, and by the way, notice where the "elect" will be gathered from: not from earth, as the post-tribulation rapture position requires, but rather from the four winds, from heaven. The redeemed are already in heaven when they’re called to join Yahshua, as we saw in the previous chapter, to witness the "Battle" of Armageddon. Paul put it this way: "When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory." (Colossians 3:4) When He shows up, we’ll show up.



FH is an exciting book to read and gives you lots of good insite into a very convoluted subject. I have to say I've read many a commentary on this subject and found most of them lacking because they didn't take into account Yayweh's plan.
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Offline kp  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2007 6:25:50 PM(UTC)
kp
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Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA
As long as we see the rapture as "believers being saved from nasty circumstances," we'll never understand what it's all about. Avoiding the Tribulation is merely a byproduct---it's not the point. Ruchamah's argument is therefore beside the point. Enoch and Elijah were not raptured so they could escape from something. They were called home because their job was done. The same will be true of a whole generation of believers in the very near future.

You're looking for other OT "types" of the rapture? There are several, and they all support the pre-trib position. (1) First (since you brought it up) let's look at Enoch. Many mistakenly view Noah's ark as a rapture type, but it's not. It's a picture of the believing remnant, especially Israel, who come to faith after the rapture and are preserved through it. Enoch was taken out before the wrath of Yahweh was visited upon the earth. Enoch's translation is the symbol of the rapture; the flood is symbolic of the Tribulation. (2) When Lot was removed from Sodom, the angels specifically told him that they could not destroy the city until after he had departed. Again, Lot's removal symbolizes the rapture, which came before the judgment.

Those examples are pretty blatant, but Yahweh is nothing if not consistent. Consider the somewhat more subtle evidence in this entry from The Owner's Manual, a review of the Torah:

Quote:
(568) Maimonides: A leprous house defiles. The Torah: “When you have come into the land of Canaan, which I give you as a possession, and I put the leprous plague in a house in the land of your possession, and he who owns the house comes and tells the priest, saying, ‘It seems to me that there is some plague in the house,’ then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest goes into it to examine the plague, that all that is in the house may not be made unclean; and afterward the priest shall go in to examine the house.” (Leviticus 14:34-36) We’ve moved from skin afflictions and apparel infections to “sick building syndrome,” yet another metaphor for spiritual sickness. For convenience, we’re calling all of this stuff “leprosy,” though there’s obviously a lot more than one physical malady in view. Here we see a new wrinkle: Yahweh Himself is said to be afflicting the house with the leprous plague, and the homeowner is expected to notice it and report it to the priest. This may seem odd, until we factor in Proverbs 3:33. “The curse of Yahweh is on the house of the wicked, but He blesses the home of the just.” Obviously, a “house” here is a symbol for something larger—where we live, expressed in broad strokes, our whole socieo-economic-religio-political world.

Following the symbols to their logical conclusion, we see that the believer is to be cognizant of his surroundings, the society in which he lives. If he sees “a plague in the house,” (and who could miss the signs of spiritual disease in our world today?) he is to report it to the priest. That’s a picture of prayer, for the priest was the divinely appointed link between God and Man. The priest (and remember, our High Priest is Yahshua) first “empties the house,” that is, he takes out those within it who remain undefiled. Interestingly, he does this before the stones of the house are subjected to examination, to testing or trial. Could this be another subtle indicator of a pre-tribulation rapture? I believe it is. On reflection, it seems this whole passage is eschatological in nature (not that I was sharp enough to catch it when I wrote Future History).

Note that the occupant is not to (1) tear down the house himself, (2) ignore the problem, (3) become tolerant of it, or (4) defer to the opinion of his neighbors or the government—human wisdom, such as it is. No, he is to go to the priest—that is, to Yahshua. But wait—we’ve already established that the plague is Yahweh’s doing, sent in response to our society’s wickedness. Are we supposed to appeal to the One who sent the disease in order to be kept out of it? Yes, we are. See Revelation 3:10 if you don’t believe me.


God doesn't contradict Himself. Like it or not, the pre-Trib rapture is what the Bible predicts. Deal with it.

kp
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Offline Ruchamah  
#6 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 3:01:21 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
Quote:
"Enoch was taken out before the wrath of Yahweh was visited upon the earth. Enoch's translation is the symbol of the rapture; the flood is symbolic of the Tribulation."

Let's look at Enoch:

Enoch was 65 when his SON was born, Methuselah.

Enoch was 252 years old when his GRANDSON, Lamech,was born.

Enoch was 365 when he *left*

Enoch had been *gone* for 69 years when his GREAT-GRANDSON, Noach was born.

Enoch had been *gone* for 569 years when his GREAT-GREAT GRANDSONS, Shem, Ham and Japheth wwere born.

Enoch had been *gone* for 669 years when the Flood came.

It mentions in Matthew 24 something about *this generation*. Well that certainly is NOT the case with Enoch!

I will post again soon...

In Messiah,
Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline Ruchamah  
#7 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 3:18:23 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
When Lot was removed from Sodom, the angels specifically told him that they could not destroy the city until after he had departed. Again, Lot's removal symbolizes the rapture, which came before the judgment.
Quote:


Well now,kp, i think you ARE on to something here: I will agree with you that Lot is indeed a picture of *protection during time of tribulation*: he was not removed from the earth's realm, no, he was protected right smack in the midst of it! The stench of the burning was in his nose. Perhaps tho, a more appropriate picture of this protection is seen in father Abraham, who simply abode in his place and observed the judgment from there.

However, the Tanakh gives us probably the best description of those who are saved from tribulation from God's point of view.

Eze 14:19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:
Eze 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Noach survived judgement from God.

Daniel survived the judgment of man (the King).

Job survived the judgment of hasatan.

I would encourage a re-read of Ezekiel 14. The coming difficulties are outlined, along with information about the SURVIVORS, who are indeed placed alongside Noach, Daniel and Job for comparison.

Ruch
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline kp  
#8 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 5:03:58 AM(UTC)
kp
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Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA
Like the saying goes, a text without a context is a pretext. We have absolutely no grounds for applying the "this generation" thing to Enoch. Yahshua is merely (!) saying that the generation that sees the beginning of the signs---deceivers, false christs, wars and rumors of war, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, lethal hatred by the world against believers, betrayal, false prophets, worldwide preaching of the gospel, the abomination of desolation, the flight of Israel, and the coming of the Messiah in glory (who, by the way, will have gathered his elect at that time not from the earth, but from "one end of heaven to the other"--flatly stating that there will be a pre-trib rapture)---will see the series completed in one generation. Yeah, there have been deceivers, false christs, and wars for, like, forever. But when did they become "signs?"

Next: As far as Lot was concerned, he was being removed from the earth. He left his whole world behind (a pretty sad commentary in itself). His wife in the end couldn't bring herself to do it, and she turned back. It's a metaphor, for cryin' out loud, a parable, an illustration. It wasn't the rapture; it was a symbol for the rapture. The road sign is not the destination.

Next: Ezekiel 14? Once again, pay attention to the context. Who's he talking to? "A land [which] sins against Me by persistent unfaithfulness." (v13) Whether Israel (in the immediate context) or the whole world (the principle still applies), Zeke's point is that only the righteous survive. But note something significant. He says that the remnant who will come to faith subsequent to the judgment will "come out to you, and you will see their ways and their doings. Then you will be comforted concerning the disaster that I have brought upon Jerusalem." (v22) Who will be comforted? The ones who were not subject to judgment, but who were in agony over the fate of a lost world, especially Israel. And who are they, in the present context? Us, who shall be raptured before the judgment falls. We shall see Israel's deliverance (and more) and we will be comforted. Ezekiel 14 goes a long way toward demonstrating a pre-trib rapture, Ruchamah. What were you thinkin'?

kp
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Offline Ruchamah  
#9 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 5:36:39 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
KP,

First off, i think this is intended to be a discussion, not attacks against one another's abilities to understand the texts in qwestion. So i would appreciate you not engaging in that. Thanks

I never said Enoch should be viewed as a pattern in the context of rapture, vis a vis Matthew 24. I am simply responding to your statement that,"Enoch's translation is the symbol of the rapture; the flood is symbolic of the Tribulation." This is YOUR statemnt, not mine. I am simply pointing out that Enoch was in fact far removed in time from the judgement of the Flood, by 659 years and five generations.

There are ample patterns seen throughout the Tanakh of deliverance in the MIDST of trouble, but to eqwate the rescue of Lot with the rapture and say that Lot DID leave earth is not qwite true. To eqwate the Heavelies with the little town of Zoar, where incest and the families of Moab and Ammon were conceived is a bit much, I would think.

The Tanakh is replete with promises of our protection during the times of trouble, even in the Day of the LORD. Maybe He wants us to understand that bad times ARE coming, but that He is more than capable of protecting us thru them. This is when He is glorified, when His people face certain annihilation and are preserved instead (think Red Sea).

Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline Ruchamah  
#10 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 5:36:57 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
KP,

First off, i think this is intended to be a discussion, not attacks against one another's abilities to understand the texts in qwestion. So i would appreciate you not engaging in that. Thanks

I never said Enoch should be viewed as a pattern in the context of rapture, vis a vis Matthew 24. I am simply responding to your statement that,"Enoch's translation is the symbol of the rapture; the flood is symbolic of the Tribulation." This is YOUR statemnt, not mine. I am simply pointing out that Enoch was in fact far removed in time from the judgement of the Flood, by 659 years and five generations.

There are ample patterns seen throughout the Tanakh of deliverance in the MIDST of trouble, but to eqwate the rescue of Lot with the rapture and say that Lot DID leave earth is not qwite true. To eqwate the Heavelies with the little town of Zoar, where incest and the families of Moab and Ammon were conceived is a bit much, I would think.

The Tanakh is replete with promises of our protection during the times of trouble, even in the Day of the LORD. Maybe He wants us to understand that bad times ARE coming, but that He is more than capable of protecting us thru them. This is when He is glorified, when His people face certain annihilation and are preserved instead (think Red Sea).

Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline kp  
#11 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 6:00:07 PM(UTC)
kp
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Posts: 1,030
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Ruch, I fully agree with you that Yahweh is "more than capable of protecting us" through the bad times. But there are bad times and then there are BAD TIMES. An understanding of the seven miqrym and the order in which they fall is essential to comprehending God's timetable. Yom Teruah precedes Yom Kippurym: The Feast of Trumpets (which wraps up what began on the Feast of Weeks--the Spirit-filled ekklesia) precedes the Day of Atonement (which marks Israel's final repentance, their recognition of their Messiah). You speak of the time when Yahweh's "people face certain annihilation and are preserved instead." This is a perfect description of Israel's experience during the Tribulation, the Time of Jacob's Trouble. But the mostly-gentile ekklesia of Philadelphia will be long gone by this time, "kept out of the hour of trial which is to come upon the whole world." (Rev 3:10) And what about Laodicea, those who come to faith after the rapture? They will face the "certain annihilation" of which you speak; they will not (for the most part) be protected. They will be martyred in the millions, victims of the Antichrist, who was granted the authority to make war with the saints and to overcome them (Rev 13:7), in the process acquiring from Yahshua "gold tried in the fires" of Tribulation (Rev 3:18).

kp
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Offline Ruchamah  
#12 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 6:28:30 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
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Posts: 72
Location: TN
Ahh, ok, KP, i think i understand better now where u are coming from, not yet having read your books.
If i am understanding correctly, I think you see a difference between believing gentiles and believing Jews...Is this correct?
Like two people of God, two types of salcvation, two destinys..Am i correct in my understanding?
Thanks!
Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline Theophilus  
#13 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 3:36:42 AM(UTC)
Theophilus
Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 544
Man

Thanks: 4 times
Ruchamah wrote:
Ahh, ok, KP, i think i understand better now where u are coming from, not yet having read your books.
If i am understanding correctly, I think you see a difference between believing gentiles and believing Jews...Is this correct?
Like two people of God, two types of salcvation, two destinys..Am i correct in my understanding?


Hello Ruchamah, and welcome to the forum. I too am eager to read KP's answer to your questions, but have read FH and have some thoughts in the meanwhile.

I'll begin with a qualifier that I don't have ther authority to speak for Yah as to who is and who is not in fellowship with Him. That said I understand that many Israelis and others are cultrally Jews but are effectively secular and of the World. Some Jews are Messianic and others Rabbinical but not (yet?) Messianic. Is a faithful Rabbinical Jew (not Messianic) in fellowship with Yah? I can not say with certainty.

If I understand FH's interpretation of the Scriptures correctly than Those indwelt with the Set-Apart Spirit of Yah will be harpazoed /caught up into the air to meet Yah in the air as a fullfillment of the Feast of Trumpets and very likely on that day. In the tribulation that will follow this event sometime later many Jews and Gentiles will come to come to trust and rely upon Yah and be indwelt with His Spirit while most of the world will not.

The fullfillment of Yom Kippurym or Atonment in FH and YY is understood to be the return of MessiYah Yahushua ending the tribulation a seven after it started and the beginning of Tabernacles 5 days later when His millenial reign on earth will ensue. This may well be the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth we read of in Scriptures. But even this is not the end of the story as the millenial reign has an end point and the releasing of the Advesary for a brief time before the arrival of the New Heaven and New Earth replete with the New Jerusalem.

I hope that you'll have an oppurtunity to read YY, FH, TOM and POD to more fully consider the case.
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Offline Ruchamah  
#14 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 4:40:53 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
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Hi Theophilus,

Thank you so much for your reply! I guess part of what i have a struggle with is that the believers somehow leave at the time of trouble in fulfillment of the Feast: why NOW would the Most High take us out of the earth when there is no such pattern seen in Scripture? The pattern that we see is that He protects His people right in the midst of trouble! This is when He is exalted! The fact that the ancient Israelites were between the Sea and the oncoming Egytpians, yet were miraculously delivered has garnered awe and praise for our Elohim for millenia!

I do believe that the plan is to gather us, take us out of the nations where we have been scattered, meet with us face to face AGAIN, and re-establish the Kingdom, just has He has promised in all the prophets. However, if we see ourselves as someone OTHER than the Israel of God, we will not see this.

The penalty for breaking His covenant is scattering: this pattern is established in Eden, when Adam and Chavah are *banished* from the Garden for their disobedience. The same pattern is repeated over and over again throughout the pages of Scripture.
The PROMISE, however, is regathering and restoration,. also repeated throughout Scripture.

It seems that if we, who were once gentiles, fail to see that we have been grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Messiah, we will also fail to see that the promises of future regathering and restoration will be missed by us.

If we are were not grafted in to Israel then who are we? If we are grafted into Israel, then all the prophets are speaking to US.

I think it is the latter.

Shalom in Messiah,
Ruch
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline kp  
#15 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 4:50:28 AM(UTC)
kp
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Location: Palmyra, VA
I think Theophilus pretty much nailed it. We need to keep in mind that in the present order of things, Yah's called-out assembly is neither exclusively "Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free." At the moment, we believers are all in this thing together (which presumably is why Yahshua stresses maintaining unity). But the OC scriptures make it abundantly clear that there will also come a time of restoration and glory for the nation of Israel (which if Yahweh is truthful must be future, 'cause it sure hasn't happened yet).

The only way to reconcile the two truths is to factor in the timeline. From the Day of Pentcost (Feast of Weeks, 33 CE) to Yom Teruah (Feast of Trumpets, some year in the near future) the first arrangement is in force. After a short gap (a few months to a few years, if my observations are valid) the second arrangement will be inaugurated, though it will take one final "seven" as delineated in the amazing Daniel 9 prophecy (a "seven" or "week" is a 360-day prophetic time period---interestingly, Yahweh never calls them "years") to bring it all to pass. Israel's restoration will, in other words, have a very rocky beginning, but it will happen.

So, Ruchamah, I see no "difference between believing gentiles and believing Jews" in the present age (though there will be in the future---The Daniel 9 prophecy concerns Yahweh's program for Israel, and it's not done yet). There are not "two types of salvation" (since the only path to God lies in Yahshua), but there are "two destinies," both glorious, but different. The "nations" who pay homage to King Yahshua during the Millennium are the children of the gentile survivors of the Tribulation, those designated "sheep" in Matthew 25.

kp
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Offline Ruchamah  
#16 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 5:03:05 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
Quote:
But the OC scriptures make it abundantly clear that there will also come a time of restoration and glory for the nation of Israel (which if Yahweh is truthful must be future, 'cause it sure hasn't happened yet).


See, this is where i am having a problem, KP. Arent WE grafted INTO Israel?

Ruch
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline kp  
#17 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 6:30:44 AM(UTC)
kp
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Location: Palmyra, VA
Ah, now I see where the confusion is coming from. No, we're not grafted into Israel. Whether Jewish believers or gentile, we're grafted into Yahshua. He is the trunk, the root, the source of our being. Romans 11 makes it clear:

"...If the root [Yahshua] is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches [Israel] were broken off, and you [gentiles], being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree [Yahshua], do not boast against the branches [i.e., the ones that were broken off, Israel]. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root [Yah], but the root supports you.

"You will say then, 'Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.' Well said. Because of unbelief they [Israel] were broken off, and you [gentile believers] stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches [Israel], He may not spare you [gentile branches] either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off [a promise reiterated in the letters to the seven "churches" of Rev 2-3]. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again [that's repentance]. For if you [gentile believers] were cut out of the olive tree [the world] which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree [Yahweh], how much more will these [repentant Jews], who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree [a process that will be completed at the definitive Yom Kippurym]?

"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.'" (Romans 11:16-26) Note that once again, we see an order of events: the "fullness of the gentiles" comes in (which includes the age of the predominantly gentile ekklesia) and this is followed by the restoration of sight to Israel.

Jewish believers of the present age of ekklesia need not feel that they've somehow been shortchanged in this deal. They, as members of Yahshua's ekklesia, will return with the Messiah as immortals to supervise the earth as "kings and priests" under the perfect reign of Yahshua. No, they won't be mortal Jews living in the world's last superpower, Millennial Israel. They'll be, with the rest of the ekklesia, immortal mentors for the human race, spiritual ambassadors of Yahshua for the Kingdom age. I can live with that.

kp
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Offline Ruchamah  
#18 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 6:54:11 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
Good morning, KP, may you have a blessed Shabbat!

Quote:
"...If the root [Yahshua] is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches [Israel] were broken off, and you [gentiles], being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree [Yahshua], do not boast against the branches [i.e., the ones that were broken off, Israel]. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root [Yah], but the root supports you.

"You will say then, 'Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.' Well said. Because of unbelief they [Israel] were broken off, and you [gentile believers] stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches [Israel], He may not spare you [gentile branches] either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off [a promise reiterated in the letters to the seven "churches" of Rev 2-3]. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again [that's repentance]. For if you [gentile believers] were cut out of the olive tree [the world] which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree [Yahweh], how much more will these [repentant Jews], who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree [a process that will be completed at the definitive Yom Kippurym]?


I think we may have some mixed metaphors here...let me try to understand:

If the root [Yahshua] is holy

some of the branches [Israel]

not support the root [Yah]

gentiles were from..olive tree [the world] which is wild by nature

a cultivated olive tree [Yahweh],

[repentant Jews], who are natural branches

______________________________________________________________________________________

Based on your understanding of the above qwote, Yeshua and Yah are the root of the tree, the cultivated tree is Yah, the uncultivated tree is the world, the natural branches are repentant Jews and the wild branches are gentiles.

My first and most obvious qwestion is if Yah is the root, how is He also the tree? And if He is the cultivated tree, who cultivated Him?

Perhaps even more basic is the qwestion regarding the trees: what is the difference between a wild olive tree and a cultivated olive tree? Is the SEED different?

Will look forward to your reply..
Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline kp  
#19 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 11:13:38 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA
If you try to make metaphors walk on all fours, they'll stumble. You know that.

What's being said here is so obvious it needs no explanation, but against my better judgment, I'll explain anyway. The olive tree is a consistent biblical metahphor for the source of spirit (e.g. Zechariah 4). The question is where the spirit who indwells you comes from, a wild olive tree or a "cultivated" one. The Greek word kallielaios is used only here in Romans 11, and it's comprised of roots (if you'll pardon the espression) that mean "better" and "olive tree," so the word is more properly rendered as in the AV: "good olive tree," making the wild olives "not so good"---and more to the point, a spirit from a source other than Yahweh. Yahweh is the "good" tree, root and trunk---the source of the Ruach Qodesh. Wild "olive trees" are incapable of providing the Spirit of Yahweh. They either bear no fruit at all, or they provide some other spirit. The source of the olive and its oil is different, and the spirit is not the same. That's bad news for Israel, for they were broken off from the source of Yahweh's Spirit. And it's good news for the gentiles who received the grace of God, for they were grafted into Yahweh's tree in their stead. But the admonition stands: If Yahweh broke off the "natural branches," He can certainly break off the grafted-in branches as well. We have been warned.

I fail to see how this line of questioning gets you any closer to a plausible case for a post-trib rapture. Are you going somewhere with this, or just teaching me patience?

kp
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Offline Ruchamah  
#20 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 11:33:58 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
Kp, i am not trying to test yer patience, i am honestly trying to understand how you can seperate believers in Messiah from Israel, the Israel of God.

Going back to the beginning, to Genesis, we learn that trees have seeds and the life iof the tree is in the seed. In Romans 11 we are discussing trees, cultivated and wild. You state that one tree represents Yah and the other represents the world. But they are BOTH olive trees, SAME SEED.

Keeping it PRACTICAL, what is the difference between a cultivated olive tree and a wild olive tree? You are suggesting that it is a DIFFERENT seed: if this is true then they cant both be olive trees, and Paul is a liar.

What i am trying to point out to you is that what happens to Israel, happens to us. This includdes the concept of the *rapture*: when it occurs for them, it occurs for us.
[Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
/i]

What did Messiah do?
[i]Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


If we are NO LONGER GENTILES, per Paul, then what are we? If Messiah didnt make us members of the Commonwealth of Israel, as stated by Paul, what are we members of? Is Paul overstating the case?

Who we see ourselves to be in relation to Israel will determine our eschatology.
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline YAHWEH_kid0707  
#21 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 1:17:01 PM(UTC)
YAHWEH_kid0707
Joined: 8/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: In the DFW area of north/central Texas.
kp wrote:
As long as we see the rapture as "believers being saved from nasty circumstances," we'll never understand what it's all about. Avoiding the Tribulation is merely a byproduct---it's not the point. Ruchamah's argument is therefore beside the point. Enoch and Elijah were not raptured so they could escape from something. They were called home because their job was done. The same will be true of a whole generation of believers in the very near future."

That is an outstanding post, KP. It is me, Carolyn. I made it!
Hi to everyone else. I am Carolyn and live in TX. I just joined this board. I am totally blind so it was a bit of a technological challenge, but my screen reading program seems to get along better than expected with the YY forum's interface. I heard about this site from KP. Please be patient with me, as there are certain things I am unable to see nor understand such as changing boldness of text. I replied in this topic thread because the pretrib rapture is a subject so dear to my heart, to my very being. It is the BLESSED HOPE of the church. I enjoyed your post on this subject too, Jenny. I am looking very forward to learning from others and making new friends here. I learned so much from reading the Future History. It's only an opinion, but anyone who questions the timing of the rapture as it relates to the tribulation should read it from beginning to end. I have only a few chapters to go, but it clarifies much (and that's a gross understatement.) I am happy to have made it here.

Peace and Grace to you all!

Carolyn and Guide/Service Dog Ellie

**
Carolyn in DFW TX and Guide/Service Dog Ellie
"I will bring the blind by a way they did not know; I will lead them in paths they have not known. I will make darkness light before them, And crooked places straight. These things I will do for them, And not forsake them." Isaiah 42:16
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Offline Ruchamah  
#22 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 1:48:53 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
Hi Carolyn and here is a treat for Ellie!

It is GREAT to have u here Carolyn and i trust that you will indeed meet many new friends, and i sure hope that i am one of them!

Getting back to the topic: Thank you for reposting KP's earlier comment, Carolyn. In that post KP says that Enoch and Elijah were raptured, and he uses them as examples, or patterns for us, in a later post.
Previously, I showed how Enoch was 669 years, or at least five generations, removed from the Flood, so if he is an example to us it would be rather disheartening. In other words, if we could expect the Kingdom to come some 600 years hence, using Enoch as the pattern, well that just would be a drag.

In both the case of Enoch and Elijah, we never see them return to establish a Kingdom, so i am not sure just what kind of pattern they are to be to us, other than righteous men who walked with the Most High.

I am hoping that kp has other people in Scripture who set the pattern for us of a pre-trib rapture so we can learn from their example.

Enjoy the Forum, again it is good to have u here!

Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline Jeannie  
#23 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 2:41:55 PM(UTC)
Jeannie
Joined: 6/27/2007(UTC)
Posts: 254
Woman
Location: Florida
Hi Carolyn and welcome to the forum and that includes Ellie!! Before FH I didn't believe in a rapture as such but after understanding Yahweh's plan it just fell into place. If he has fulfulled 4 of the 7 Migra's to the letter then that's really all I need. I understand and respect Ruchamah's reasoning and I'm sure we are going to be kept out of a heap of trouble or kept thru a heap of trouble but never the less the fifth Migra will be fulfulled. And the sixth and the seventh.
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Offline YAHWEH_kid0707  
#24 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 2:47:31 PM(UTC)
YAHWEH_kid0707
Joined: 8/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: In the DFW area of north/central Texas.
I will leave passages from KP's original text below. KP this particular post mentioning Lott put me in mind of something I read in the Future History. I don't remember where exactly in the old testament it is, but there was a parible from the OT included in the portion of the book discussing the rapture. These people were evil, doing all manner of wickedness. The only ones who were protected from being put to death were those who were crying and sighing over the evil being done around them. They were to have a mark put on them excluding them from eternal punishment. That screams pretrib rapture to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is what I think of because all those saved from the wrath of Yahweh carry the mark of salvation. Yes, it can be said this was supposed to illustrate the death of Yahshua, but even His death and the events surrounding it speak volumes to a pretrib rapture! I know I am not very skilled nor am I a fraction as knowledgeable as those from whom I've read postings since joining. I'm sorry I am not yet able to look certain scriptures up. I am not quoting exact text so perhaps KP or Jeannie could help with this? In my opinion that event is indicative of the church being withheld from punishment because they are devastated by the evil they see around them. I know at times I feel like crying when I hear about certain things on the news, and I do sigh an aweful lot these days as I am certain many of us do.
Anyway, just another thought, for what it may or may not be worth. Carolyn

KP writes:
kp wrote:
Like the saying goes, a text without a context is a pretext. We have absolutely no grounds for applying the "this generation" thing to Enoch. Yahshua is merely (!) saying that the generation that sees the beginning of the signs---deceivers, false christs, wars and rumors of war, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, lethal hatred by the world against believers, betrayal, false prophets, worldwide preaching of the gospel, the abomination of desolation, the flight of Israel, and the coming of the Messiah in glory (who, by the way, will have gathered his elect at that time not from the earth, but from "one end of heaven to the other"--flatly stating that there will be a pre-trib rapture)---will see the series completed in one generation. Yeah, there have been deceivers, false christs, and wars for, like, forever. But when did they become "signs?"

Next: As far as Lot was concerned, he was being removed from the earth. He left his whole world behind (a pretty sad commentary in itself). His wife in the end couldn't bring herself to do it, and she turned back. It's a metaphor, for cryin' out loud, a parable, an illustration. It wasn't the rapture; it was a symbol for the rapture. The road sign is not the destination.

Next: Ezekiel 14? Once again, pay attention to the context. Who's he talking to? "A land [which] sins against Me by persistent unfaithfulness." (v13) Whether Israel (in the immediate context) or the whole world (the principle still applies), Zeke's point is that only the righteous survive. But note something significant. He says that the remnant who will come to faith subsequent to the judgment will "come out to you, and you will see their ways and their doings. Then you will be comforted concerning the disaster that I have brought upon Jerusalem." (v22) Who will be comforted? The ones who were not subject to judgment, but who were in agony over the fate of a lost world, especially Israel. And who are they, in the present context? Us, who shall be raptured before the judgment falls. We shall see Israel's deliverance (and more) and we will be comforted. Ezekiel 14 goes a long way toward demonstrating a pre-trib rapture, Ruchamah. What were you thinkin'?

kp

**
Carolyn in DFW TX and Guide/Service Dog Ellie
"I will bring the blind by a way they did not know; I will lead them in paths they have not known. I will make darkness light before them, And crooked places straight. These things I will do for them, And not forsake them." Isaiah 42:16
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Offline Ruchamah  
#25 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 3:24:10 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
Actually, Carolyn, the passage that you are speaking of is a future prophecy, and it is found in Ezekiel 9. I believe this is precisely what the apostle John is speaking about in Revelation 7 with the *sealing with a mark in the forehead*, the 144 thousand.
I believe this happens in the period leading up to the tribulation.
Ezekiel 11 provides us additional details regarding the time of the tribulation., and in this prophecy, there are saints who survive and who deliver others.

Once again, I think that if we attemptt to divorce ourselves from being grafted in to the Commonwealth of Israel and the covenants of promise, we have nothing to hang on to: there are NO covenants made with gentiles!

Sadly, the enemy wants to keep us from understanding who we are, and the *church* has colluded with the enemy in keeping us OUT OF the Tanakh, not JUST the Torah.

These prophecys are about US.

Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline kp  
#26 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 4:21:36 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA
If all gentile believers are now part of Israel, then the bit of geography defined in Numbers 34 and Ezekiel 47 is gonna be real crowded during the Millennium, the rest of the planet will be an uninhabited wasteland, and the nations spoken of in Isaiah 2 don't exist:

Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of Yahweh's house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
Many people shall come and say,
“Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore. (Isaiah 2:2-4)

kp
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Offline Ruchamah  
#27 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 4:41:21 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
Ya know KP, that is precisely what the prophecy SAID u would say!


Isa 49:18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
Isa 49:19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
Isa 49:20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.

Here is the amazing thing KP: the people who are CROWDING the Land are none other than...you guessed it...GENTILES!

Isa 49:21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
Isa 49:22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.


Yeshua is the STANDARD that is lifted up! He is the One who calls us Home!

Only in Him,
Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline YAHWEH_kid0707  
#28 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 4:54:29 PM(UTC)
YAHWEH_kid0707
Joined: 8/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: In the DFW area of north/central Texas.
Ruchamah wrote:
Hi Carolyn and here is a treat for Ellie!"

Hey there, Ruchamah. Nice to make your acquaintance as well!
Thanks for the nice welcome and Ellie says (YUM! wag wag!) Of course you will be a friend. I have much love in my heart for those who want it. I have so much to learn. I wanted to comment on a few things although they were directed to KP, Ruchamah. I believe that *anyone* who believes on and loves Yahshua (the Christ - the Messiah) is going up in the clouds to meet Yahshua in the air. Only those who do not view the Christ as *the Messiah* will have a different outcome. They will be protected directly by Yahweh, and that is how He will be glorified, or one of the many ways, anyhow.

Ruchamah writes:
"Getting back to the topic: Thank you for reposting KP's earlier comment, Carolyn. In that post KP says that Enoch and Elijah were raptured, and he uses them as examples, or patterns for us, in a later post.
Previously, I showed how Enoch was 669 years, or at least five generations, removed from the Flood, so if he is an example to us it would be rather disheartening."

Oh...I don't know about that. One thing I do know is that some will think me nuts but I'll go on with my thoughts anyway.
Do you believe like many scientists that time, like an old and worn garment, is becoming weaker, wearing thin; unraveling, stretching out and losing substance? If so, the number "669" years in particular is very interesting in and of itself. Remember KP mentions that Yahweh does everything in 6 with a pause and then 7? Remember Daniel's 69 weeks? And 669 yrs is close to 700 which might or might not have a deeper meaning. While the believers (Messianic Jews and Christian gentiles alike) do leave before the tribulation, are we really gone all that long..well I'm not so sure. If you believe time is aging and speeding up like I am coming to see myself, then maybe you can grasp what I am hinting at, as silly as I might sound.

Continuing with Ruch's post:
"In other words, if we could expect the Kingdom to come some 600 years hence, using Enoch as the pattern, well that just would be a drag.
In both the case of Enoch and Elijah, we never see them return to establish a Kingdom, so i am not sure just what kind of pattern they are to be to us, other than righteous men who walked with the Most High."

Oh Ruchamah, one thing I never, ever believe about any character in the living word of Yahweh is that they have little meaning or importance. There is *always* a reason--always some great clue, lesson, puzzle piece or jewel of wisdom to be had with every event or character(s) included in the bible. Many believe Jesus was just a good man, a wise prophet, but we know there was so, so much more reason for His presence in the scriptures, do we not?

You also write:
I am hoping that kp has other people in Scripture who set the pattern for us of a pre-trib rapture so we can learn from their example."

Well, I think so...His name is Yahshua! (Big smile.)

I am off for some orange ruffie from the grill and steamed veggies. I will check back in. This is a great site and I am so glad I found it.
Wishing Yahweh's great blessings on everyone,
Carolyn

PS...the 0707 in my user name is the month and year I was recently baptised. 07/22/07 is a day of rebirth for me. I love the number 7! LOL

**
Carolyn in DFW TX and Guide/Service Dog Ellie
"I will bring the blind by a way they did not know; I will lead them in paths they have not known. I will make darkness light before them, And crooked places straight. These things I will do for them, And not forsake them." Isaiah 42:16
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Offline Ruchamah  
#29 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 5:01:16 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
Well then Carolyn, let me not only welcome u to the forum but to the Family as well!
May your walk with Him be exciting and joyous and may He fill your life with His light!
It is SO good to meet a NEW sister! WOOHOOOO!

Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline YAHWEH_kid0707  
#30 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 5:44:57 PM(UTC)
YAHWEH_kid0707
Joined: 8/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: In the DFW area of north/central Texas.
Hi again Ruchamah! Hope I'm spelling your name correctly. I am still waiting for my fish. Thanks for setting me straight on that one. I am a little embarrassed. Oops! (Sheepish grin.)
Ruchamah wrote:
Actually, Carolyn, the passage that you are speaking of is a future prophecy, and it is found in Ezekiel 9. I believe this is precisely what the apostle John is speaking about in Revelation 7 with the *sealing with a mark in the forehead*, the 144 thousand.
I believe this happens in the period leading up to the tribulation.
Ezekiel 11 provides us additional details regarding the time of the tribulation., and in this prophecy, there are saints who survive and who deliver others."

I just had a strange and compelling thought. I wonder if it came from just me or if the holy spirit was involved. It said, "Instead of all you guys/believers wrapping about and debating the finer points of what is to come, why not get yourselves out there and evangelize through service, testimony, prayer and spreading the gospel?"
Make of it what you will...I'm still trying to do that myself. If I could drive, I'd be out there doing a lot more than I can as I am. If anyone ever needs any prayer or simple fellowship please email me...my add is in my profile. No matter what you believe about the rapture, these are frightening, sad times in which we are living.


Love, peace and grace in the Precious Name of Yahshua.

Carolyn and Ellie (my Hard-Workin Dawg

**
Carolyn in DFW TX and Guide/Service Dog Ellie
"I will bring the blind by a way they did not know; I will lead them in paths they have not known. I will make darkness light before them, And crooked places straight. These things I will do for them, And not forsake them." Isaiah 42:16
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Offline YAHWEH_kid0707  
#31 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 8:05:12 PM(UTC)
YAHWEH_kid0707
Joined: 8/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: In the DFW area of north/central Texas.
Ruchamah,
Thank you! I have been a believer for a long, long time. But I only recently came to know and understand the power of the blessed holy spirit. Too, I had to unlearn a lot of legalistic er..."stuff" in which I was indoctrinated with from a formative age until I turned 18. My peers and other members judged me harshly as I was the preachers grandkid, and supposed to be perfect. I was pregnant by the age of 17 and an outcast while other teenaged girls were forgiven and kept in the fold. It hurt. Yahshua was more of an fire-escape or viewed as a stairway to Heaven. Yahweh was an impersonal, vendictive force.

After finding out the true nature of Yahweh, that He loved us so much He became human and died for His own creation, I began to feel differently about everything in my life. Bitterness drained away and thankfulness took its place. When I felt His spirit for the first time it was enough to bring me to my knees. It was better than any high from any drug I ever tried in the past (another thing Yahweh delivered me from.) I had been baptised before as a kid but I felt it was just an act of obligatory obedience. I wanted this to be a profession of my utter faith in Yahshua and what He did on that cross for man kind. I wanted to be married to Him. I felt like a nervous bried and it was beautiful. I know Yahweh brought me to this place, to this church, to this home, to this family of believers. I cannot be alone anymore. I am longing for fellowship. I am also slowly learning the bible. I have a bible that talks. It rocks. Yahweh is making good and sure that *everyone* gets to know His gospel...even the blind, deaf and those in far-removed places with technology, biblical translation and so much more. To keep this pretrib relative, I have to say that I really feel it won't be long now before Yahshua comes to get all His flock. I started feeling a strong urge to study the *end* of the bible along with the gospels a little over a year ago. The feeling we only have around 20 years left (give or take a few) became overwhelmingly strong...not just because I wish it so. This life is but a breath and I'm already 36 so I can deal with it if the rapture doesn't happen when I hope it will, but I can't shake that feeling. I have prayed about it and the feeling only became stronger. I do believe our groom is about to come for his bride! Also, Ruchamah, I think it is so beyond awesome to meet a Messianic Jew, am I correct? One of my best friends from the 8th grade along with her family also embraced the truth--thatthe Messiah has already come, died and risen again. Praise be to Yahweh that you heard the sound of your shepherd's voice when He called you!!
I could talk about Yahshua and Yahweh all day long. They're all I care to learn, think and talk about anymore. I am in love...He gave me back my life and was true to His word--that I might live more abundantly and in comparison to the dark, dreadfully depressing place in which I used to dwell, this living in His light is so much better!
I am love sick. Reading KP's book helped me so in many ways. It was Yahweh's will that I found his book and then this site.
I think you really should read it from beginning to end. You might not agree with every single point but I can promise you a blessing. I could give examples but I am rambling. I am bad about that sometimes. It's just been so long since I felt anything even remotely similar to joy. I pray Yahweh's kingdom come. I long for His presence. I know there is beauty left in this world--just enough beauty to give us faith and hope. I marvel at all His creation constantly. I am in wonder and awe regularly. But the yurning to be near Him and in unison with all His body is stronger each day I live on. I have tried to take my own live and wondered why God wouldn't just let me die...well now I know the reason. He wanted me here to encourage other people...Christian and non-believing alike. I pray for my sight but He gave me an inner sight...one much more important. I pray for a lack of constant physical pain but He gives my soul relief. Well now that I am bawling like a big baby I guess I better hush.
I almost didn't send this but if we can't talk about our true feelings with one another, then where can we go? Church shouldn't only be on Sunday or Wednesday. I hope it's okay here. I think the holy spirit is upon me more than usual tonight.
Yahweh bless and keep you all.
Carolyn
Ruchamah wrote:
"welcome u to the forum but to the Family as well!
May your walk with Him be exciting and joyous and may He fill your life with His light!
It is SO good to meet a NEW sister! WOOHOOOO!

Ruchamah

**
Carolyn in DFW TX and Guide/Service Dog Ellie
"I will bring the blind by a way they did not know; I will lead them in paths they have not known. I will make darkness light before them, And crooked places straight. These things I will do for them, And not forsake them." Isaiah 42:16
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Offline Jeannie  
#32 Posted : Saturday, August 11, 2007 5:29:25 AM(UTC)
Jeannie
Joined: 6/27/2007(UTC)
Posts: 254
Woman
Location: Florida
Carolyn, thank you for your story! His love for us is amazing and the places He can take us from and deliver us to!!!!! I think this is why the rapture captivates people. It's like conversion, takes you from one rotten place and transports you to Him!!!
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Offline YAHWEH_kid0707  
#33 Posted : Saturday, August 11, 2007 9:51:29 AM(UTC)
YAHWEH_kid0707
Joined: 8/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: In the DFW area of north/central Texas.
Hi Jeannie and all. I hope everyone is feeling the joy of just knowing Yahweh this Saturday afternoon. Jeannie your reply to my all too wordy post put me in mind of something in FH. I love how Yahweh influenced His servant, KP, to author this amazing work. One of my favorite examples of Yahweh's glory through KP's writing is when he refers to those in the rapture being "translated." Is that awesome or what? I cannot think of a better way to phrase it.
Hugs and wags.
Jeannie wrote:
Carolyn, thank you for your story! His love for us is amazing and the places He can take us from and deliver us to!!!!! I think this is why the rapture captivates people. It's like conversion, takes you from one rotten place and transports you to Him!!!

**
Carolyn in DFW TX and Guide/Service Dog Ellie
"I will bring the blind by a way they did not know; I will lead them in paths they have not known. I will make darkness light before them, And crooked places straight. These things I will do for them, And not forsake them." Isaiah 42:16
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Offline Ruchamah  
#34 Posted : Saturday, August 11, 2007 5:02:18 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
KP

Hope u had a blessed Sabbath! And i sure hope you got my last post as well!

Yes i DO think the Almighty has provision for us to be *protected* during the time of the trib: I just believe it is right here on earth, rather than whisked away to the realm Beyond.

The silver TRUMPETS were used for several things:
1. calling the assembly
2. journeying of the camp
3. summoning the Elders or Princes of the tribes
4. call to battle

The Shofar also has many uses:
1. announcing New Moon and solemn feasts
2. proclaiming the Yovel, or Jubilee year
3. zichron Teruah, or Memorial of blowing, Tishri 1
4. sounding an alarm

All of the prophets speak of a day when His people will be called out from *every nation where I have scattrered them*: this exodus from ALL the nations will be so overwhelming in its scope, that the historical Egyprian exodus will be forgotten!

There is only ONE people of God: I think we are included in these wonderful prophecies!

In Messiah,
Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline Jim  
#35 Posted : Saturday, September 22, 2007 7:40:50 PM(UTC)
Jim
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Posts: 57
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Location: Central Florida
Ruch and KP,
You sucked me in and I can't help but throw my two cents in to jump back on topic. Much to Yada's and Jeannie's shagrin, I am mostly a reader on the site and not a contributor due to time constraints, however salvation and eschatology are my trigger points. First, I don't think I caught your estimation of when believers are removed. What's your take?

KP and Yada know they haven't won me over with a "pre-trib" interpretation. In my study, KP has produced the best and most scholarly job of presenting such a view (better than anybody coming out of Dallas!). The reason I say that is his approach has a solid hermenuetic, based on face value interpretation of the Scriptures. However, isn't it funny that we share the same method of interpretation yet come to different conclusions! It doesn't change my love for both of my brothers in Yahushua and I know through dedication to His Word and the wisdom and instruction of the Spririt that we'll discover the truth in His revelation to us, His bond servants

The best description for what I believe concerning Yahushua's gathering of his eklesia is a "pre-wrath" view. Simply, I see the event of the six seal in Revelation 6:12-17 as the gathering of His eklesia prior to wrath of Yahweh being administered. The coherence of the sign in the sun, moon and stars relative to all the other prophetic passages concerning "His day", "that day", (I hate to use this translation, sorry KP) "the Day of the Lord" etc. always coincide with a direct discussion of the gathering of His faithfull in the renewed covenant and the beginning of His wrath in the old. This view does not preclude an understanding of Yahuweh's prophetic timing with respect to His appointed times (Miqras).

Keeping it simple, I believe KP makes his best case for a "pre-trib" gathering through his and also Yada's discussions and analysis on the called-out assemblies in Revelation 2-3. Although I believe they are bang-on with most of it, I think it is pushing the interpretation of Revelatio 3:10 and frankly ignoring v.11 to say that this is a faithful remenant which will be removed early with regard to the hour of testing/tribulation. This was an example and I don't mean to pick on a single point just to make mine. When I can get back to writing, I will flesh this out in greater detail in the "Prophecy" section.
Jim
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Offline Ruchamah  
#36 Posted : Sunday, September 23, 2007 5:30:46 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
Hi Jim,

I am glad u jumped in!

However, I am still waiting for someone, anyone, to show me a PATTERN of a pre-wrath rapture in Scripture. He does NOTHING except He first shows us the PATTERN.

If you have read this topic from the beginning, you have seen that no one has produced a PATTERN of pre-trib rapture from Scripture. Perhaps you can!

If no PATTERN can be found, then it is HIGHLY unlikely...no, it is completely unlikely, that such an event will take place.

Shalom!
Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline Jim  
#37 Posted : Monday, September 24, 2007 6:11:31 PM(UTC)
Jim
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Location: Central Florida
I am sorry I wasn't more detailed (I did not explicitly state examples of the pattern when I metioned coherence). I will provide you a listing below but allow me a disclaimer: Patterns are not a requirement of proof for a truth. They can definitely be supportive and in some case can be coroborative. However, I could demonstrate a substantive pattern yet be in conflict with another part of the Word and be dead wrong.

Since I don't support a pre-trib approach, I am not going to attempt to provide you a pattern for something I don't support. I am assuming you wish to see a pattern for a pre-wrath position so here you go:

First, a built in pattern has already been provided by Yahushua himself as represented in Luke 17:22-37. Old Covenant references are self explanatory however it is repeated again in Matthew 24:37-41 and 2 Peter 3:3-7 (obviously we have to be removed before destruction commences).


Second is a prophetic pattern/repetition of events (I guess your point is "If it is important, it bears repeating."):

Mark 13:24-27
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27 “And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Matthew 24:29-33
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. 32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Luke 21:25-31
25 “There will be SIGNS IN SUN, MOON AND STARS, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. 28 “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” 29 Then He told them a parable: “Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 “So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.

Revelation 6:12-17 with Revelation 7:9-17 (Yes, divided out v.1-8 but appropriate for the purpose of pattern)
12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the SUN became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole MOON became like blood; 13 and the STARS of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 “They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

WOW! That gets me every time!

Joel 2 (This chapter has two direct references but the whole chapter is so marvelous I can't just yank them both out so please read it all and enjoy!)

Joel 3:15-16
15 The sun and moon grow dark And the stars lose their brightness. 16 The LORD roars from Zion And utters His voice from Jerusalem, And the heavens and the earth tremble. But the LORD is a refuge for His people And a stronghold to the sons of Israel.

Isaiah 13:9-11
9 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light. 11 Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

Ezekiel 32:7-9 (Identical except with near-term consequences to Egypt. Speaking of patterns, this is an example of where several Old Covenant prophecies had near and far term execution.)

Whew! Ok, I presented a pattern for you to work with now it is only fair to answer my question on your view. (Otherwise, I'll consider you a preterist. I'm sorry that would be goading you wouldn't it?) ;)
Jim
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Offline Jim  
#38 Posted : Monday, September 24, 2007 6:16:47 PM(UTC)
Jim
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Location: Central Florida
Oh, by the way, the references were direct quotes out of a New American Standard Bible translation.
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Offline Ruchamah  
#39 Posted : Tuesday, September 25, 2007 6:43:34 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
hi Jim,

thanks for the long reply. I am not sure which pattern you are trying to point out: i do believe there will be a *catching away*, jost not before some serious tribulation.

You say,"I will provide you a listing below but allow me a disclaimer: Patterns are not a requirement of proof for a truth. " Could u give me an example of a truth of Scripture that doesnt have numerous patters? Thanks.

As for the many references, esp to sun and moon and stars etc. yes i do believe that those things will all occur.

What i am looking for, Jim, is for a PATTERN where the Almighty reaches down and whisks His people OUT of danger, to another realm. It SEEMS to be the pattern of Scripture that He preserves His people right smack in the MIDST of the trouble. Some examples:
1. Noah: probably watched as the world around him drowned; the very thing that killed them, saved him (ie he floated ON the water.
2. Lot: actually saw cities being destroyed before his eyes, tho he was safe in Zoan
3. Daniel: slept with the lions
4.Shadrach,Meshach, Abednego: tossed in to the fire, joined by the fourth, saved right in the midst of the flames
5.Job: afflicted terribly, but his life protected in the midst of it

So my qwestion is, is there are similar PATTERN of those who were whisked out of trouble or tribulation?

thanks,
Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline Jim  
#40 Posted : Tuesday, September 25, 2007 2:23:56 PM(UTC)
Jim
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Posts: 57
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Location: Central Florida
Sure thing (sorry I missed the detail of the original request, my fault):

1: In Exodus 14, Yisrael is coming out of the tribulation of Egypt and being whisked through the Red Sea to safety and the destruction of the enemy immediately follows.
2: You discount Noah and his family but he is an excellent example in this pattern since the ark is indeed the "realm" of which you speak. In fact Genesis 7 records that the floods came on the very same day, right after Yahuweh shut them in the ark. Noah definitely experienced growing persecution from those who mocked him for his faith before being preserved from destruction.
3: Lot is another good example of this pattern in Genesis 19. He did not actually see the cities destroyed. He had just reached safety at the "realm" of Zoar when destruction came in right behind them. After the destruction was over, it was Abraham who overlooked the destruction. Even cooler about this pattern is Yahuweh sent his angels to gather Lot and his family just as we will be "gathered from the four winds". They were most definitely in a condition of tribulation before being caught away and before destruction.
4: You know, there isn't much stretching involved to fit Daniel in this pattern too. Growing persecution for his faith in Yahuweh culminating with angels rescuing him from the destruction which actually befalls the same who persecuted him.
5: Of course, Revelation 6-7 Matthew 24 and Luke 21 and Mark 13 follow this pattern directly.

The pattern is Yahuweh's people suffer growing tribulation and persecution (in most cases they experienced it with extreme intensity just before their removal), Yahuweh removes them, destruction immediately follows. Hence, my end-times view is post-tribulation but pre-wrath of Yahuweh.

Maybe I am being a little hard on you for the desiring of a "pattern". What we are really doing is pointing out simile in the Scriptures. Yahushua demonstrates simile for this subject matter when he says "just as in the days of Noah". Similes and metaphors are important concepts for the correct interpretation of prophecy since it discourages the desire to create allegories.
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Offline Ruchamah  
#41 Posted : Tuesday, September 25, 2007 2:45:45 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
My point is this Jim: None of the above-mentioned saints actually LEFT this WORLD WE CALL EARTH: they were all saved IN THE MIDST of the tribulation.
Now, If u have a pattern to show me in Scripture where people are taken to *heaven* so as to avoid tribulation, then we will get down to an interesting discussion!
Ruch
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline Jim  
#42 Posted : Tuesday, September 25, 2007 4:00:28 PM(UTC)
Jim
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Location: Central Florida
Ruch,
That doesn't make any sense. Something actually has to happen the exact same way first before it can be an example of it happening in the future? That smacks of circular reasoning. That's like me asking for a pattern for creation. Show me a pattern for where Yahuweh created us before he created us. In fact, I was going to use the commandments as a proof of truth that existed before a pattern.

Yahuweh had to sacrifice an animal to cover Adam and Chavah after their sin. He didn't have to kill His Son at the beginning in order for the pattern to be representative of Yahushua's sacrifice later.

Jim
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Offline Ruchamah  
#43 Posted : Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:01:42 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
I agree, Jim, that creation was in His mind..from the beginning. And creation is the PATTERN for re-creation in Rev. As for the sacrifice of His Son, I believe that WAS the pattern, as He was *slain from the foundation of the world*.

As for the supeme importance of patterns:

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Ecc 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.


The Tabernacle, which is a picture of this present world and the world to come, was made according to the pattern. Our Messiah set the pattern we are to follow.

So, looking for patterns in Scripture appears to be part of our learning about Him and His ways.

Chag Sameach!
Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
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Offline Koos  
#44 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2007 2:30:31 AM(UTC)
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I do hope that I am in line with the following contribution and that it should not be place under another topic.

As a result of my re-reading YY the past week, I noticed some very interesting things, one which led to another and another. It started with regards to Daniel’s prophecy (chapter 9) in conjunction with Nehemiah 2:1-6.

I noticed that March 28, 33 CE was indicated as the day, Palm Monday, on which Yahushua entered Jerusalem. That is 173 880 days from Nissan 1,444 BCE. Four days later on the 14th of Nissan, which was supposed to be a Friday (1st of April 33 CE) This is according to the Gregorian calendar. I quote from Book 4 Salvation Chapter 1 Ma’sehyah page.19.
But then there is a “slight” printing error in Book 2 Called out Assemblies Chapter 4 Bikurim where the author states on page 8 that “By our reckoning of time it was before sunrise, the first day of the week, Sunday, April 1st, 33 CE.” It should be the 3rd of April?

However I then noticed that according to Edwin D Arceo who uses the Julian calendar that Nissan 15 was actually on a Friday being the 3rd of April 33 CE and a Sunday resurrection being the 5th of April. Edwin Arceo goes on to say that it would then place Yahushua’s ascension neatly on the 15th of May 33CE. According to the Hebrew calendar it would read Iyyar 27, 3793.

What’s most interesting is that he explains Daniel 9 in conjunction with Revelation 12.
He also uses the same dates and times but he uses them to calculate the nativity of Yahushua to 26 January 16 BCE which makes Yahushua much older than his 30 years as we normally have it. It makes our Saviour about 48 years old at the time of His crucifixion. (The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”)

Edwin Arceo claims that the “years” of Daniel can not be interrupted but must be analyzed as a continuous period. And he shows that the 17640 days in this prophecy, from the first day of His bodily presence on earth and His ascension on 15th May 33CE fits completely.

His Chronology of Yeshua Messiah and His works bowls me out.
He starts with April 7, 444 BCE – Nehemiah receiving the edict from Artaxerxes;
January 26, 16 BCE – Yahushua’s first day on earth in human form;
April 3, 33 CE; crucifixion;
May 15, 33 CE – ascension – a war starts in heaven between satan and his angels for his forcible ejection from heaven;
September 15, 36 CE – satan and his armies are vanquished by the angelic army of Yahushua;
September 18, 36 CE - three days later on the day of Atonement Yahushua rededicates the sanctuaries of the Holy Place and of the Most Holy Place in Heaven. Yahushua inaugurated as sovereign king.
April 7, 40 CE - the end of the seventy weeks, etc. etc.

The tree days in the grave? Jonah? He explains it to be symbolic. Yahushua was indeed 3 days in the heart of the earth, being Jerusalem.
Lucifer’s fall and his rebellion? Did it happen as I did/do believe billions of years ago? No he says, See Revelation for that, which is another version of the nativity of Yahushua.

These were only some of the high lights, but that is when I understood that he is actually an amillennialist!!! They do believe in the rapture, but only in the “last” day, after the LAST TRUMPET is blown! No 1000 years of reign on earth.

His website is http://rytontym.googlepages.com Very interesting reading.

That encouraged me to do a little more reading on amillennialism. I came across precious material. These guys seem to think that the amil and the premil views are irreconcilable. But I do believe that they (these Calvinists) are only explaining one particular side of the coin. In TOM I realized how beautiful the law of Moses points to the renewed covenant. We are indeed presently priests and co-heirs of Yahushua. We are Yahuwdis. We are Israel in the spiritual sense. Everything has been done for the elect. They are very metaphoric in their explanation of even the most literal of prophecies – where Yahushua lands on the Mount of Olives and it splits in two. Their exposition is beautiful, but they do not go the whole way. The spiritual truths they preach are wonderful and edifying. But to me they lack the balance of scriptural analysis I perceived in YY and TOM.

Another one of these Calvinists are a certain Tony Warren a real scholar who according to him, keeps to scripture, but does not go far enough, in my humble opinion. See his exposition of “The 70 days of Daniel chapter 9” on his website
http://members.aol.com/warren10/index.html
and also his exposition of Romans 11 and Romans 12 which is superb. Also the true Israel of God. He just doesn’t go the whole way and what irritates me slightly is his condescending references to others “who do not understand scripture correctly”.

These people deny that the physical nation of Israel still has a major role to play in end time prophecies. Jerusalem to them is purely symbolic. There is no Messiah who will come to reign for 1000 years – He is already reigning (which is true). The Last Trumpet is a very important fact which they emphasize why the rapture will take place on the last day and not before then.

In the natural sciences scientists strive for a “Final Theory”. There are so many facets of the Hebrew language and the rest of scripture in prophecy which lend to more than one interpretation each of which is and can be true - I wish that our scripture mentors would stand together and combine all they have – all the various facets and sides of the coin or picture. Or is that wishful thinking?

Blessings

Koos
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Offline kp  
#45 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2007 6:19:31 AM(UTC)
kp
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It's my experience, Koos, that amillennialists (like post-tribbers) have to be brilliant, because their positions require that they juggle dozens of conflicting scriptural "facts" all at once. Pre-tribbers, on the other hand, can just take scripture as it comes, and everything fits perfectly. I noted in FH, chapter 28:

Quote:
Peter, who clearly didn’t get it (yet), was laboring under a works-equals-salvation mentality. Yahshua gently corrected him, shifting his perception to a works-equals-rewards scenario. “Then Peter answered and said to Him, ‘See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?’ So Jesus said to them, ‘Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.’” (Matthew 19:23-30, cf. Mark 10:23-31, Luke 18:24-30) Bringing the conversation back around to his original point, Yahshua reiterated that one’s status in this world—rich or poor, powerful or insignificant, successful or struggling—has absolutely nothing to do with his position in the kingdom of heaven. In fact, in many cases, the roles would be reversed—adversity can build character.

By the way, note that Yahshua has confirmed here the doctrine of a pre-millennial rapture. He knew the apostles would all have died many centuries before He returned to “sit on the throne of His glory,” going so far as to tell Peter how he would die. And yet he promised them positions of honor in His kingdom. That requires “regeneration,” the process Paul described in I Corinthians 15 whereby our corrupt mortal bodies are to be exchanged for incorruptible immortal bodies. Yahshua has left the Amillennialists no wiggle room whatsoever.


Another point concerning Arceo's position (i.e., that the seventy weeks are all contiguous): Daniel 9:26 plainly describes what will happen between the sixty-ninth week ("And after the sixty-two weeks [following the seven weeks]") and the last week. Verse 27 begins, "Then he [the prince who is to come, i.e., the Antichrist] shall confirm a covenant with many for one week." So clearly, the events described in 9:26 fall between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week: (1) the crucifixion, (2) the armies of Rome destroying the temple in 70AD, "flooding" the city of Jerusalem with troops, and (3) the desolations would continue until the end of the war---a reference to the seige of Masada, culminating in the mass suicide of its defenders in 73. All these things happened "after" the triumphal entry (ending the sixty-ninth week) and before (obviously) the covenant with many is confirmed---'cause that hasn't happened yet (except in the delusional imagination of the Amillennialists).

kp
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Offline Jim  
#46 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2007 11:22:26 AM(UTC)
Jim
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Location: Central Florida
KP,
Bang on concerning amill but were you taking a jab at me with "(post-trib)"? ;) Don't worry I'll bite but it will have to wait. I am going back through FH this month by audio since I can squeeze in more study time on the road than at home. I know your hermeneutic doesn't include allegory but I find most pretribbers are guilty of such to make the timing fit when its seems quite clear that a 6th seal (pre-wrath of God) event doesn't require "brilliant" work. Why else would there be an inumerable group showing up before the throne just before the last seal is broken? Have they just been hanging out for the first five seals waiting to surprise the reader? Shoot! I started to bite...I'll stop.

My first read through FH was too fast and not comprehensive since my focus was really elsewhere at the time and frankly, I dumped you into the proto-typical pretrib camp (ie. Tim Lahaye). (Blame Jeannie because she was relentless to get me to it read right away and I made a half-hearted attempt.) However, I did learn that you have the exact same hermeneutic as I do. I truly respect the detail and care you take in your face value interpretations (no false praise or pretense here). As a result, I knew I had to come back for a detailed examination since our views can't be in conflict (a) I am wrong, (b) you are wrong or (c) we are both wrong. When I finish the audio review, I'll start a thread in Prophecy to record fleshing the details out for myself. I would appreciate your candid responses when you have time.
Jim
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Offline Matthew  
#47 Posted : Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:28:39 AM(UTC)
Matthew
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Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
kp wrote:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man [the title He invariably applied to Himself] will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. Mark 13:26-27)


Some Bible versions have "he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."

Was the underlined part inserted or is it in the originals? Is their proof of this?
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Offline Matthew  
#48 Posted : Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:47:16 PM(UTC)
Matthew
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Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Here's Yada's take of Matthew 24:31 in the Kippurym chapter of YY:

Quote:
Many people misconstrue this account, errantly associating it with the “rapture,” and thereby errantly concluding that the promised event will coincide with the Messiyah’s return. But that’s not what these words say. The chosen are spiritual souls coming from one end of heaven to the other, not mortals from terrestrial earth. The eklectos in Greek, qadosiym in Hebrew, are called from heaven. For the past decade or so, these previously harvested souls have been out exploring the far corners of the universe. But now, on Yowm Kippurym in 2033, year 6000 on Yahweh’s calendar, forty Yowbel from Him being pierced on Passover in 33 CE, we will be summoned to witness the most awesome day in human history.

And while that is an essential truth, please don’t miss the fact that the central passage of the Olivet Discourse is a quotation from ZakarYah. One of the most important things you can learn from this book is that Renewed Covenant is based on the Old Covenant, and that most of Yahshua’s words and deeds are either citations from the Torah, Prophets, and Psalms, of a fulfillment of them.

And I don't seem to find any place where he uses the account written in Mark.

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One thinks that the elects who have gone to heaven will be browsing the earth as well - being able to literally go "where no man has gone before".

If I do take Mark 13:27 to include the earth part then I would interpret it as you, Swalchy, have stated here. And since Matthew, not me, stresses from the ends of the heavens we can determine there's definitely a collection of immortals to witness the End, in tune with Zechariah 14:5. It's not concerning mortals being collected but of His spiritual elect being gathered, from wherever they are.

But wouldn't there be a gathering of sort, of the mortal survivors all making their way to Jerusalem?
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Offline Matthew  
#49 Posted : Wednesday, November 26, 2008 9:15:05 AM(UTC)
Matthew
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Ok guys, I have asked both KP and Yada and got great responses:

Yada:

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Matthew,

Mark is a real issue because it wasn't popular with the original Messianic community. As a result, there is only one old manuscript and it only covers portions of chapters 4-12. And as you know, there is almost no support for the final chapter of Mark. The Codex Sinaiticus is post Constantine and is thus highly unreliable. By the time the Catholic Church got through corrupting the Renewed Covenant, there were some 300,000 known varients--more changes than there are words. So, since we have 20 early Matthew manuscripts, and since the earth isn't mentioned, I'd rely on that account.

However, on the slim chance that Mark is more reliable than Matthew, then these would be souls who missed the Taruw'ah harvest known as the rapture, have been spiritually reborn during the Tribulation, and are still alive at the time of Yahuweh's Yowm Kippurym return.

If someone wants to combine the rapture with Yah's return, they they must explain what Taruw'ah represents, why there are so many references to Trumpets as it relates to the harvest, and why for the first time, two events would fall on the same Miqra'. Moreover, why would any saved souls be coming from the heavens if this depicts the rapture? The purpose of the harvest is to take us home--not away from it. And then, of course, the post trib folks have to explain why Yahushua lied when He said that He was going to keep the Philadelphian Out-Calling ek/out of the Tribulation.

Most people who promote views like the post trib rapture, or no harvest at all, don't understand the role the seven Miqra'ey play in Yahuweh's redemptive plan, and they tend to focus on passages which seem to support thier conclusions while ignoring those which contradict them. For something to be true, it must not be in conflict with any passage and it must be consistent with Yah's nature and purpose.

Yada


KP:

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Hi, Matthew:
I went back and reviewed what I wrote on these passages in FH chapter 25: Judgment Day, which wasn't much. Basically, I agreed with Yada that these verses are speaking of the final advent of the Messiah, not the rapture. I wrote:

"Notice where the “elect” will be gathered from: not from earth, as the post-tribulation rapture position requires, but rather from the four winds, from heaven. The redeemed are already in heaven when they’re called to join Yahshua, as we saw in the previous chapter, to witness the “Battle” of Armageddon. Paul put it this way: “When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.” (Colossians 3:4) When He shows up, we’ll show up."

Referencing the Matthew passage, I noted that he wrote "they [the angels] will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." This, unfortunately, sidesteps the reference to "the earth" made in Mark 13, where he referenced "the farthest part of the earth," an oversight which I will now endeavor to correct. Mark is obviously reporting the same Olivet Discourse passage that Matthew had, but even though we'll be caught up from "the earth," when we're raptured, this reference still doesn't demand (or even suggest) a post-Tribulation rapture.
Why? Because of the "Church of Laodicea," the neo-believers who came to faith only after the "Church of Philadelphia" had been "kept out of the hour of trial which is to come upon the whole earth," (Rev 3:10)---a clear reference to the rapture. Multitudes of these Laodicean late-comers will take Yahshua's advice and "acquire from Me gold tried in the fire"---they'll be martyred for their faith (or otherwise lose their lives before the end of the Tribulation), as noted in Revelation 6:9-11 (the Fifth Seal) and 7:9-17. We find these souls in heaven, but they haven't been raptured---that is, they haven't received their I Corinthians 15 resurrection bodies. They're just like those of this age who have died in Christ and are now awaiting the rapture: they're disembodied souls dwelling in Paradise. Our resurrection bodies will come from the earth, rejoining our souls, as it says in I Thessalonians 4:14---"For if we believe that Jesus [Yahshua] died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus." These "sleepers" are our souls---to be given new immortal bodies at the rapture.
But then we read, "I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4) These are the same souls described in Mark 13:27 as having been gathered "from the farthest part of the earth." They could not reign with Christ as disembodied souls; they must be clothed in their immortal, resurrection bodies, just like those who had been raptured years before this. They are not "raptured," in the sense of being caught up into the clouds with Yahshua, as we will have been. But they will be "translated," at the final coming of the Messiah, given an incorruptible bodily form just like ours (and King Yahshua's) in which to reign with Christ for a thousand years.
Problem solved.

kp


Great stuff indeed!

Here's my email to them just for interest sake:

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Hi Yada and Ken

I know you guys are busy and I have addressed this passage on the forum, but if I may ask, what is your take (are your takes) on Mark 13:27 with the phrase "from the ends of the earth?"
Some Bible versions have "he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."

Here are the verses as written in Future History:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man [the title He invariably applied to Himself] will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. Mark 13:26-27)

Here's your [referring to Yada here] comment on Matthew 24:31 in the Kippurym chapter:

Many people misconstrue this account, errantly associating it with the “rapture,” and thereby errantly concluding that the promised event will coincide with the Messiyah’s return. But that’s not what these words say. The chosen are spiritual souls coming from one end of heaven to the other, not mortals from terrestrial earth. The eklectos in Greek, qadosiym in Hebrew, are called from heaven. For the past decade or so, these previously harvested souls have been out exploring the far corners of the universe. But now, on Yowm Kippurym in 2033, year 6000 on Yahweh’s calendar, forty Yowbel from Him being pierced on Passover in 33 CE, we will be summoned to witness the most awesome day in human history.

I've spoken with Swalchy and he says the Codex Sinaiticus does contain the earth part, he says: The oldest manuscript to contain Mark 13:27 is Codex Sinaiticus, which does have "He shall gather together His elect from out of the four winds; from the tip of earth until the tip of heaven" (and it should really be "end" rather than "ends" in translations of Mark 13:27 - akron/ακρον is in the singular, not plural).

I pointed out to people, on another forum, that this does not talk about the rapture but about His return that also coincides with Zechariah 14:5, but got quickly pointed out Mark 13:27.

Obviously any response I will add to the Yadanews forum.

Thanks,

Matthew
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Offline Matthew  
#50 Posted : Thursday, November 27, 2008 12:16:47 AM(UTC)
Matthew
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Yada wrote:
As a result, there is only one old manuscript and it only covers portions of chapters 4-12. And as you know, there is almost no support for the final chapter of Mark. The Codex Sinaiticus is post Constantine and is thus highly unreliable. By the time the Catholic Church got through corrupting the Renewed Covenant, there were some 300,000 known varients--more changes than there are words.

About how many differences are there between the Codex Sinaiticus copy of Mark and the copy (although only in part) that predates Constantine?
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