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Offline kp  
#1 Posted : Friday, July 18, 2008 9:43:25 AM(UTC)
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I had hoped I'd sorted this out clearly in FH chapters 29 and 30, but apparently, it's still confusing. Here's the quickie rundown of post-mortal human destinations, as far as I can tell:

(1) Sheol. Pre-Calvary, a divided two-cell holding area for all human deceased. At the resurrection of Yahshua, the "good side," known as Abraham's Bosom or Paradise, was apparently moved to the "third" heaven (i.e., the abode of God). Sheol is "inhabited" by disembodied souls. The good side houses the redeemed, and the bad side houses the denizens of both doors #2 and #3, that is, those who did not choose to align themselves with any spirit, and those who joined themselves with demonic spirits.

(2) Hades. Formerly synonymous with sheol, but now containing only the bad side, since the OC saints have been relocated to the presence of Yahweh. The inhabitants of hades await the great white throne judgment, where their eternal disposition (Door #2 or #3) will be determined.

(3) The lake of fire. Rev 20:14 points out that hades will be cast into this lake of fire. Every soul judged at the great white throne (that is, everyone but the redeemed) will enter the lake of fire. Then the demonic living dead of door #3 will "sink to the bottom" so to speak, while the non-choosers of door #2 will spill out into nothingness, dissipation, annihilation. (See the very end of FH29.)

(4) Gehenna, or hell. This is the region of the lake of fire from which there is no escape into nothingness, but where its living-dead inhabitants endure unending, eternal, waking torment separated from the presence of Yahweh. Satan and his angels will share residence in this place. Lightless and nasty. Don't go there.

(5) Paradise, or Abraham's bosom. Formerly a compartment of sheol, this is where the redeemed souls who died before the rapture will remain, awaiting their new immortal bodies. This place is currently in heaven, the abode of Yahweh.

(6) The new heaven, including the New Jerusalem. This will be the eternal abode of those redeemed before the commencement of the Millennial kingdom of Yahshua. God will dwell among us and provide our light---personally.

(7) The new earth. This will be the eternal abode of those redeemed during the Millennial kingdom, who, like their brothers and sisters of the former age, will have been given their immortal spiritual bodies. There will be commerce back and forth between the new earth and the New Jerusalem.

Hope that helped. kp
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Friday, July 18, 2008 10:34:01 AM(UTC)
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Swalchy wrote:


Yada seems to say that Gehenna is in Hades, but then does Gehenna also become the abyss when it is thrown into the lake of fire?


Maybe its a cooking pot...
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Offline Matthew  
#3 Posted : Friday, July 18, 2008 11:10:10 AM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:
Maybe its a cooking pot...


LOL, maybe.

But I'm chuffed kp answered my question, though I did not write the question down it has been sitting in my mind this past week. Good question Swalchy!

But from the Rich Man story, and all unsaved for that matter, are they awake in Hades or are they sleeping? Are they waiting there awake while also waiting for the GWT Judgment? The Rich Man seems to be very much awake. And Samuel also seemed to be awake when he was called by Saul, was he just woken up from his temporary suspension in time or was he awake in Paradise with Abe and the rest of the gang?

But I'm still a bit confused between the OT guys in Abraham's Bosom as well as the saved souls who die after of Yahshua's resurrection, because kp says the OT guys were moved to the Abode of God in point 1 but then says the same in Point 5 concerning the Renewed Covenent dead. But from Scripture I gather that those before are now awake and have immortal bodies and are with Yahweh while those after the resurrection are also with Yahweh but asleep and without immortal bodies, temporarily suspended in time?

And all this time Enoch and Elijah have been hanging at Yah's side awaiting their return to earth, then having to suffer physical death!
Offline kp  
#4 Posted : Friday, July 18, 2008 12:52:22 PM(UTC)
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Okay, let me try to tie up the loose ends. First,
Quote:
Yada seems to say that Gehenna is in Hades, but then does Gehenna also become the abyss when it is thrown into the lake of fire?

Yes, Gehenna is "in" hades, in the sense that it is derived from it. You might say, Gehenna is latent in hades, the dark side of sheol. It remains to be seen whether or not "the abyss" is permanent, and thus synonymous with the black hole of Gehenna, or whether it is merely the place of interim incarceration for evil spirits. The problem is one of symantics, not of the reality of eternal punishment for demons and men who embrace them.

Quote:
I was thinking of the man from the Rich Man and Lazarus story. Do we know whether he's considered either a) eternally damned or b) eternally annihilated?

The evidence is circumstantial, but my conclusion was that since Dives was "in torments," his status as a "threebie" was indicated. This would have to be legally confirmed at the great white throne, of course.

Quote:
The Rich Man seems to be very much awake. And Samuel also seemed to be awake when he was called by Saul, was he just woken up from his temporary suspension in time or was he awake in Paradise with Abe and the rest of the gang?

It's clear from the Dives and Lazarus story that both those indwelled with God's spirit and demonic spirits are awake and aware of their surroundings and condition in sheol/Paradise/hades. What's not clear is whether those slated for annihilation are awake as well, since they have neither spirit nor body with which to sense their surroundings at this point. We aren't told.

Quote:
But from Scripture I gather that those before are now awake and have immortal bodies and are with Yahweh while those after the resurrection are also with Yahweh but asleep and without immortal bodies, temporarily suspended in time?

It's my take that none of the redeemed dead currently have immortal bodies. Rather, they are all like Lazarus, who is a disembodied soul dwelling in paradise. If I'm right, all of them---pre- and post-calvary, will receive their immortal bodies at the rapture. In other words, I'm guessing that the resurrection mentioned in Matthew 27:52 was a Lazarus-style affair, since Yahshua had not at that point risen, and He is the "firstborn from the dead." But the evidence is sketchy at best.

Quote:
And all this time Enoch and Elijah have been hanging at Yah's side awaiting their return to earth, then having to suffer physical death!

Yeah. That's why I described their assigned task as "the worst job in the history of the world."

kp
Offline Matthew  
#5 Posted : Thursday, July 31, 2008 10:52:22 AM(UTC)
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Just to confirm:

kp wrote:
It remains to be seen whether or not "the abyss" is permanent, and thus synonymous with the black hole of Gehenna, or whether it is merely the place of interim incarceration for evil spirits.


Yada wrote:
The Abyss was created for Satan and his fallen angels - all of whom are immortal. Therefore their testing and anguish is eternal.


Here Yada says the Abyss was created for Satan and fallen angels but he doesn't confirm if the Abyss is eternal or not. So it seems kp and Yada agree. However, Revelation 7:10 says Satan is cast, chucked, swung, hurled, flung like an elastic band, in other words he is to be picked up by the heel and tossed aside into the the Lake of Fire.

From the thread so far, I get the picture that unsaved souls are currently waiting in, and will be wating in, the sea and death and Hades while the demons and Satan will be bound in the Abyss until the GWT Judgment.

Revelation 20:12-15 says: "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." This passage says the dead, the saved and unsaved, are held in the sea and death and Hades?

Mark 9:42-44 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to Gehenna, into the fire that shall never be quenched.'" Is this word for sea in Mark by any chance linked to the word sea in the above Revelation passage, as in the same place, a place for the unsaved to-be-dissipated souls?

Revelation 21 confirms that the Lake of Fire is the final resting place for the to-be-dissipated dead, the deceivers, the false prophet, the fallen angels and Satan.

From the book of Mark the order is first into Gehenna and into the Lake of Fire, but I'm not sure if it is saying first to Gehenna and then into the Lake of Fire, or into Gehenna which is to be in the Lake of Fire, or Gehenna is the Lake of Fire.

The amount of names is the confusing thing....
Offline Matthew  
#6 Posted : Thursday, July 31, 2008 12:01:54 PM(UTC)
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Swalchy wrote:
Technically, the Greek of Mark 9:44 says "rather than having two hands to go off into Gehenna, into the inextinguishable [unquenchable, ceaseless and endless] fire"

One would consider then that Gehenna is a place of "endless fire".


Ok, I'm geting it now! One could say "into Gehenna, which is (or should I say which is in?) the Lake of Fire."
Offline Matthew  
#7 Posted : Monday, September 29, 2008 7:51:05 AM(UTC)
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I'm concerned about the time of Luke 16:19-31. When did this occur, was it in the past or is it still future? One guy is taken to Paradise and the Rich Man is buried, in verse 23 it says Hell in the NIV and KJV, NASB says Hades, the ISR doesn't mention location but just says he was "suffering tortures in the grave." My confusion comes with the timing of the event. I thought Gehenna (hell) was the final destination, after the Lake of Fire. Because the Rich Man tells Abraham to go warn his family as if they are still alive walking earth. Therefore Gehenna (hell) might not be the right translation of this verse, Hades seems more fitting.
Offline kp  
#8 Posted : Monday, September 29, 2008 8:39:00 AM(UTC)
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Since this story was delivered prior to the resurrection, I believe the place Yahshua is describing is Sheol ("the grave"), which at the time apparently had two "compartments," "Abraham's bosom," a.k.a. "Paradise," and the nasty side of town where the rich man found himself. It is my understanding that Paradise was moved to heaven (the abode of Yahweh) after the resurrection, leaving sheol (or hades in Greek) a holding place for all unsaved dead (compare Revelation 20:5 to Revelation 20:14). Gehenna, meanwhile, seems to be a geographical metaphor for the abyss, the "hell" in which satan and his followers will spend eternity in torment. If my take on this is correct (no guarantees) then "gehenna/the abyss" will remain in the lake of fire (the destination of all who are judged at the great white throne). But the souls of those who had not received the spirit of satan (and are thus not immortal in any sense) will flow out of the lake of fire into dissipation, annihilation, and destruction---which is, if you think about it, a far more blessed state than those with satan's eternal spirit will endure.

kp
Offline BiynaYahu  
#9 Posted : Monday, September 29, 2008 8:57:54 AM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
I thought Gehenna (hell) was the final destination, after the Lake of Fire.


There was a valley in Yisra'el called Ge Hinnom. This valley was how the Yahudiym destroyed their garbage is was a valley full of sulfur which was perpetually burning. I believe they may have also disposed of bodies in this dump. This is where the word gehenna derives it's name. So, I believe that gehenna may be the name of the lake of fire. I could be wrong though, of course.

Your loving brother,
Mike
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Offline Yah Tselem  
#10 Posted : Monday, September 29, 2008 10:19:11 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
But the souls of those who had not received the spirit of satan (and are thus not immortal in any sense) will flow out of the lake of fire into dissipation, annihilation, and destruction---which is, if you think about it, a far more blessed state than those with satan's eternal spirit will endure.

I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority when I say this, but I personally do not see it that way. If I was facing the lake of fire and had to choose either to jump in or to be dissipated, I would have a really hard time choosing. Dissipated means gone forever - to me, what could ever be scarier than that? I don't know what I would choose, but it would not be easy. I know they don't get to choose at that point because they'd already made their choice in their lifetime, but I just wanted to see if I was the only one who thinks this way. When I think of loved ones, I find no comfort in them being dissipated over burned, I will only find comfort if I know they have a relationship in Yahweh and are trusting in Him and His sacrifice. What it "boils down to" is how ecstatic I am that I will never have to burn or dissipate into oblivion and it is because of Yah's mercy...
Offline Yah Tselem  
#11 Posted : Monday, November 3, 2008 5:21:04 PM(UTC)
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don't everyone reply at once...
Offline sirgodfrey  
#12 Posted : Monday, November 3, 2008 5:51:33 PM(UTC)
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to be gone forever seems so much better than dwelling forever enduring such anguish and torment. think about it, im a sinner, i have never had fellowship with Yah, i probably don't even enjoy life THAT much. the thought of me being gone forever might even be comforting. i can just do what i want, and then get annihilated....


i don't know, just some thoughts.
Offline Big Rich  
#13 Posted : Monday, November 3, 2008 9:02:23 PM(UTC)
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I definitely have to vote for oblivion in this situation. Just think of the last time you had a horrible flu and how much comfort it was when you could finally go to sleep. Or in a situation more in keeping with the nature of the punishment we're speaking of here, the last time you felt really really guilty about something. When I've face situations like this, when I was unable to see a way to make a way out, sleep has been the only comfort I've had.

Granted, none of these situations have been eternal, which makes my preferences in the matter all the more telling. Facing an eternal, unescapable guilt, a knowledge that you betrayed the One being who loved you more than anything else in the universe, the knowledge that nothing you can do can fix this, but that YOU never had to do anything but just accept His gift, would be unbearable. Oblivion would be like a mountain of ice cream on a warm sunny day in comparision to that.

I understand that this doesn't sound as comforting when we think about it affecting the ones we love, and I feel 100% the same way, but that to me seems to stem more from our feelings towards them than from looking at the issue from their point of view. Yeah, both choices in this situation are horrible, because we'd really want them to be together with Yah and together with us, but at least they won't have to, from dissipation on, see it, or anything that way. In dissipation, they can at least be at peace, even if the great potential they had to live in love with us was wasted.

Personally, encountering this idea of three afterlife destinations made me feel a much greater love towards Yah. Finally I could quit doing all the intense mental gymnastics it takes to justify the idea of a God that would burn whoever didn't choose Him in hell. Finally I could make an unconstrained choice and I found, much to my delight, that Yahuweh offered something much preferable to nonexistance: an existance filled with undying love. However; just because theres a better option on the table doesn't mean that nonexistance is necessarily a bad option, at least if we restrict ourselves to figuring out the accounting costs rather than the opportunity cost of the situation. Even if the idea of oblivion would make one despair at the meaningfulness of their life, it would in the same stroke cure that despair forever.

Now, I'm off to experiance what, thankfully, should be the closest I ever get to my second choice in this matter.
Good night and may Yahuweh bless you all!
Offline Matthew  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, November 4, 2008 5:36:39 AM(UTC)
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Being dissipated is far better than eternal anguish, I could never imagine being confined in a place of nothingness for all eternity. Never having escape from it, there is no light there, the blackness of black. People going there will wish they received annihiliation instead.
Offline bitnet  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, November 5, 2008 12:13:18 AM(UTC)
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Shalom,

You know the current fantasy that if you are "good" when you die you shall go to heaven and enjoy being with God? Can you imagine being happy when you can see what is happening down here on earth today? Especially if your family lived in, say Aceh just before the tsunami or in New Orleans when Katrina is about to strike? Or when your son or daughter is about to get hit by a truck or inflicted by cancer? Will you be stuck in some corner in heaven so that you do not have a window seat without HNN TV or HeavenNet and do not know what is happening here on earth? Well, not knowing sure would be a lot better unless you know that everything is going perfectly for those alive here on earth. One vacation away and you start worrying already, let alone one lifetime away... or eternity in separation. Abba Yahweh knows this so He decided to give us eternal life or eternal rest, unless we really ask for eternal damnation.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, November 5, 2008 12:34:18 AM(UTC)
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bitnet wrote:
Shalom,

You know the current fantasy that if you are "good" when you die you shall go to heaven and enjoy being with God? Can you imagine being happy when you can see what is happening down here on earth today? Especially if your family lived in, say Aceh just before the tsunami or in New Orleans when Katrina is about to strike? Or when your son or daughter is about to get hit by a truck or inflicted by cancer? Will you be stuck in some corner in heaven so that you do not have a window seat without HNN TV or HeavenNet and do not know what is happening here on earth? Well, not knowing sure would be a lot better unless you know that everything is going perfectly for those alive here on earth. One vacation away and you start worrying already, let alone one lifetime away... or eternity in separation. Abba Yahweh knows this so He decided to give us eternal life or eternal rest, unless we really ask for eternal damnation.


Again, very nicely put - thats exactly how I see it.
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Offline Icy  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, November 5, 2008 2:18:00 PM(UTC)
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To understand how incredibly horrible living in nothingness away from Yah would be, we can take a glimpse at how prisoners are affected when they are put in solitary confinement, and they still have their sense then. There is also a rare mental disorder associated with sense deprivation. I only vaguely remember reading about it in passing, I only remember that it was quite horrible.

Below is a excerpt from a psychatrists article on the study of solitary confinement.

Quote:

PSYCHIATRIC EFFECTS OF SOLITARY CONFINEMENT

As my interviews progressed, these facile accounts gave way to descriptions of experiences which were very worrisome. For example, one inmate was unable to describe the events of the several days surrounding his wrist-slashing, nor could he describe his thoughts or feelings at the time. Similarly, the prisoner who said he could "take it" eventually came to describe panic, fears of suffocation, and paranoid distortions which he suffered while in isolation. Moreover, the specific psychiatric symptoms reported were strikingly consistent among the inmates:

1. The Specific Psychiatric Syndrome Associated With Solitary Confinement.

a. Hyperresponsivity to External Stimuli
More than half the prisoners reported a progressive inability to tolerate ordinary stimuli. For example, "You get sensitive to noise -- the plumbing system. Someone in the tier above me pushes the button on the faucet . ... It's too loud, gets on your nerves. I can't stand it. I start to holler."

b. Perceptual Distortions, Illusions, and Hallucinations
Almost a third of the prisoners described hearing voices, often in whispers, often saying frightening things to them. There were also reports of noises taking on increasing meaning and frightening significance. For example, "I hear noises, can't identify them -- starts to sound like sticks beating men, but I'm pretty
sure no one is being beaten . . . I'm not sure." These perceptual changes at times became more complex and personalized: "They come by with four trays; the first has big pancakes. I think I am going to get them. Then someone comes up and gives me tiny ones -- they get real small, like silver dollars. I
seem to see movements -- real fast motions in front of me. Then seems like they are doing things behind your back -- can't quite see them. Did someone just hit me? I dwell on it for hours."

c. Panic Attacks
Well over half the inmates interviewed described severe panic attacks while in SHU.

d. Difficulties With Thinking, Concentration and Memory
Many reported symptoms of difficulty in concentration and memory; for example, "I can't concentrate, can't read . . . Your mind's narcotized. Sometimes can't grasp words in my mind that I know. Get stuck, have to think of another word. Memory's going. You feel like you are losing something you might not get back." In some cases this problem was far more severe, leading to acute psychotic, confusional states. One prisoner had slashed his wrists during such a state and his confusion and disorientation had actually been noted in his medical record.

e. Intrusive Obsessional Thoughts: Emergence of Primitive Aggressive Ruminations
Almost half the prisoners reported the emergence of primitive aggressive fantasies of revenge, torture, and mutilation of the prison guards. In each case, the fantasies were described as entirely unwelcome, frightening and uncontrollable. For example, "I try to sleep 16 hours a day, block out my thoughts -- muscles tense -- think of torturing and killing the guards -- lasts a couple of hours. I can't stop it. Bothers me. Have to keep control. This makes me think I'm flipping my mind . . . I get panicky -- thoughts come back -- pictured throwing a guard in lime -- eats away at his skin, his flesh -- torture him -- try to block it out, but I can't."

f. Overt Paranoia
Almost half the prisoners interviewed reported paranoid and persecutory fears. Some of these persecutory fears were short of overt psychotic disorganization. For example: "Sometimes get paranoid -- think they meant something else. Like a remark about Italians. Dwell on it for hours. Get frantic. Like when they push buttons on the sink. Think they did it just to annoy me." In other cases this paranoia deteriorated into overt psychosis: "Spaced out. Hear singing, people's voices, 'Cut your wrists and go to Bridgewater and the Celtics are playing tonight.' I doubt myself. Is it real? . . . I suspect they are putting drugs in my food, they are putting drugs in my cell . . . The Reverend, the priest -- even you -- you're all in cahoots in the Scared Straight Program."

g. Problems With Impulse Control
Slightly less than half of the prisoners reported episodes of loss of impulse control with random violence: "I snap off the handle over absolutely nothing. Have torn up mail and pictures, throw things around. Try to control it. Know it only hurts myself." Several of these prisoners reported impulsive self-mutilation; "I cut my wrists many times in isolation. Now it seems crazy. But every time I did it, I wasn't thinking -- lost control -- cut myself without knowing what I was doing."


Do you still think eternal living seperation is prefreble to simply "dying?"
Offline Big Rich  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, November 5, 2008 6:26:28 PM(UTC)
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Ouch!
Wow, that's worse than even I thought it would be. Just reading down the list of those effects was giving me chills...
Offline Matthew  
#19 Posted : Thursday, November 6, 2008 12:02:31 AM(UTC)
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Now can you imagine then living with the knowlegde you lead people astray for your own selfish benefits and every time God spoke to you you rejected Him. I think living in that knowledge would be unbearable for these people, added to the fact they know their eternal destiny is set with no hope of escape.
Offline Big Rich  
#20 Posted : Thursday, November 6, 2008 4:24:35 PM(UTC)
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Not fun.
I wonder if all of them would feel that way though? Like the antichrist and false prophet and the rest of the chief leadership of the conspiracies against Yah, will they actually feel guilty? Or will they just continue to ignore the fact that their own actions led them there? I mean, if the plagues of Revelation didn't get them to feel the least bit sorry, will judgment be capable of creating the correct attitude in them?
Offline Yah Tselem  
#21 Posted : Thursday, December 25, 2008 9:48:56 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for the responses, guys. Now I understand better. Even though, to me, being dissipated is so scary as you would be gone forever, the other option is even worse. OK, a lot worse. Thanks for shedding some light on it. I don't want anyone I love to have to experience either one, but many of them will...
Offline BiynaYahu  
#22 Posted : Thursday, December 25, 2008 12:32:21 PM(UTC)
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Yah Tselem,

Yeah man. They are both terrible!
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Offline Matthew  
#23 Posted : Sunday, January 25, 2009 2:39:51 PM(UTC)
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Here is Albert Barnes' Notes on Matthew 8:12 "but the sons of the reign shall be cast out into outer darkness – there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." I thought it would be a good addition to this thread:

Quote:
Mat 8:12
The children of the kingdom - That is, the children, or the people, who “expected the kingdom,” or to whom it properly belonged; or, in other words, the Jews. they supposed themselves to be the special favorites of heaven. They thought that the Messiah would enlarge their nation and spread the triumphs of their kingdom. They called themselves, therefore, the children or the members of the kingdom of God, to the exclusion of the Gentiles. Our Saviour used the manner of speech to which they were accustomed, and said that “many of the pagans would be saved, and many Jews lost.
Shall be cast out into outer darkness ... - This is an image of future punishment. It is not improbable that the image was taken from Roman dungeons or prisons. They were commonly constructed under ground. They were shut out from the light of the sun. They were, of course, damp, dark, and unhealthy, and probably most filthy. Masters were in the habit of constructing such prisons for their slaves, where the unhappy prisoner, without light, or company, or comfort, spent his days and nights in weeping from grief, and in vainly gnashing his teeth from indignation. The image expresses the fact that the wicked who are lost will be shut out from the light of heaven, and from peace, and joy, and hope; will weep in hopeless grief, and will gnash their teeth in indignation against God, and complain against his justice. What a striking image of future woe! Go to a damp, dark, solitary, and squalid dungeon; see a miserable and enraged victim; add to his sufferings the idea of eternity, and then remember that this, after all, is but an image, a faint image, of hell!
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