 Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC) Posts: 641  Location: Virginia Beach, VA Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
|
I am going to the church I used to attend (for reasons dealing with my other thread), and I thought it ironic that the pastor read this verse today: Quote:2Ti 4:2 Proclaim the Word! Be urgent in season, out of season. Reprove,1 warn, appeal, with all patience and teaching. Footnote: 1Or: confute, or prove them wrong.
2Ti 4:3 For there shall be a time when they shall not bear sound teaching, but according to their own desires, they shall heap up for themselves teachers tickling the ear,1 Footnote: 1Isa. 30:10, Jer. 5:31, Rom. 16:18.
2Ti 4:4 and they shall indeed turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to myths. They do not realize that this very passage is speaking about them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,470 Location: England Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
|
yea its sad isnt it. "they shall not bear sound teaching" - they dont listen, because they are already correct. |
Signature Updated! Woo that was old... |
|
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,191 Location: São Paulo, Brazil Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
|
It's annoying isn't it? I can't stand being labelled a "legalist." What about 1 Timothy 1:3-11? Quote:As I appealed to you when I went into Makedonia, to remain in Ephesos, in order to command some not to teach differently, nor to pay attention to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than an administration of Elohim which is in belief. Now the goal of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief, which some, having missed the goal, turned aside to senseless talk, wishing to be teachers of Torah, understanding neither what they say nor concerning what they strongly affirm. And we know that the Torah is good if one uses it legitimately, knowing this: that Torah is not laid down for a righteous being, but for the lawless and unruly, for the wicked and for sinners, for the wrong-doers and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for those who whore, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and for whatever else that is contrary to sound teaching, according to the esteemed Good News of the blessed Elohim which was entrusted to me. It tells us that some wish to be teachers of the Law, and your everyday Christians assume that we are these people, because Paul seems to say that the Torah is only for those doing wickedness, thereby further nailing the law to the cross with an even bigger nail in a Christian's understanding. But honestly, why would Paul say "Torah is not laid down for a righteous being, but for the lawless..." because I have read the rest of the chapter but don't really understand this passage? All I know is that Paul is not talking about us. Anyone with some insight? I know "the goal of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief," but were these wannabees trying to teach salvation through the Law or wanting to be teachers of the Law without understanding. But to me it seems Paul is really saying that "the Torah is not laid down for a righteous being" and I'm battling to get my mind around it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 9/7/2008(UTC)
Posts: 550
Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
|
What I have gotten from TOM (thank you KP!) is that the law is there to teach us that we are sinners. Once we have accepted Yashuah's gift of redemption the purpose of the written law is complete and we no longer "need" it. Obviously we still need to learn and understand the Way of Yahweh, to respect his commands, and draw closer to Him.
Our journey to righteousness is a journey of getting to know and more importantly follow Yahweh and his Way. The Spirit aids us in this, for me I have been drawn to the Word (specifically YY) and good teachings. I think this is why most of us are here.
It is like good works. They are empty and meaningless without Yahshua's Grace. With His Grace our good works praise him and even build rewards in Heaven. Likewise before His Grace the Law is empty, keeping it is impossible, it only shows us how far we fall short, but after His Grace it shows us Yahweh's heart and how we can show our love for him by being better children.
I don't know if this helps you, it may be a little simplistic, but it helped me to write it. |
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14 |
|
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA
|
It does sort of sound like a conundrum, doesn't it? "Law is not laid down for a righteous being, but for the lawless..." But I think the answer is perhaps seen most clearly in the bottom line: Quote:Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:11-15) Being judged according to the works we have done is, by definition, comparing those works to a standard. What standard? The Torah, a standard that no son of Adam has ever measured up to. Peter called it "a yoke...which neither we nor our fathers were able to bear." And why are the "dead" standing before God at the great white throne being measured against such an impossible and strict standard? Because their names were not found in the Book of Life. Therefore, the evidence---the true record of what they actually did---is the only possible basis on which their fate may fairly be determined. But those whose names are listed in the Lamb's Book of Life are exempt from judgment under the law because they have been declared righteous because their sins are atoned---covered---by the sacrifice of Yahshua. These are the "righteous" for whom the "law is not laid down." It's not fair. No gift really is, otherwise, it wouldn't be a gift, but rather an exchange, a transaction. We all say we want justice to prevail, but we don't, not really. What we really want is mercy. kp
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 4/5/2008(UTC) Posts: 314 Location: British Columbia, Canada
|
kp wrote: These are the "righteous" for whom the "law is not laid down." It's not fair. No gift really is, otherwise, it wouldn't be a gift, but rather an exchange, a transaction. We all say we want justice to prevail, but we don't, not really. What we really want is mercy. Yes, in the end none of us can keep the torah perfectly. Hence why we are not made right by works. Also, it's the desire to follow the commands of our dad which show our love for him. Not keeping it perfectly. Plus, in all truth the letter of the law is meant to protect us physically (some of it) whilst judging those who do not love YAHUWEH (all of it). So, in the end it's a good thing dad loves mercy over justice, or we'd all be up the creek without a paddle. Your loving brother, Mike |
Someone who does not dearly love or welcome, entertain, look fondly upon or cherish people with strong affection or highly esteem them with great favour, goodwill or benevolence, be loyal to or greatly adore them has not known or understood, perceived or realized, noticed or discerned, discovered or observed, experienced or ascertained, learned about or distinguished, comprehended, acknowledged or recognized God*, for concerning this, God* is and exists as brotherly love and affection, good will, esteem and benevolence. |
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
