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Offline Theophilus  
#1 Posted : Friday, July 20, 2007 8:35:09 AM(UTC)
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YY well said that love requires choice. While I suspect that the doctrine is based on a poor understanding of Yahuweh's Scripture, I'm trying to understand how to respond to verses advanced to support predestination. The passage I most frequently encounter is in Romans 9:

Quote:
Romans 9:1 I speak the truth in Messiah, I do not lie, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Set-apart Spirit, 2that I have great sadness and continual grief in my heart. 3For I myself could have wished to be banished from Messiah for the sake of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, 4who are Yisra’elites, whose is the adoption, and the esteem, and the covenants, and the giving of the Torah, and the worship, and the promises, 5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Messiah according to the flesh, who is over all, Elohim-blessed forever. Amen. 6However, it is not as though the word of Elohim has failed. For they are not all Yisra’el who are of Yisra’el, 7neither are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham, but, “In Yitshaq your seed shall be called.” 8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of Elohim, but the children of the promise are reckoned as the seed. 9For this is the word of promise, “At this time I shall come and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but Ribqah having conceived by one, our father Yitshaq. 11Yet, before they were born or had done any good or evil – in order that the purpose of Elohim, according to choice, might stand, not of works but of Him who calls12it was said to her, “The greater shall serve the lesser,” 13as it has been written, “Ya'aqob I have loved, but Esaw I have hated.” 14What, then, shall we say? Is there unrighteousness with Elohim? Let it not be! 15For He says to Mosheh, “I shall favour whomever I favour, and I shall have compassion on whomever I have compassion.” 16So, then, it is not of him who is wishing, nor of him who is running, but of Elohim who shows favour. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this same purpose I have raised you up, to show My power in you, and that My Name be declared in all the earth.” 18So, then, He favours whom He wishes, and He hardens whom He wishes. 19Then you shall say to me, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His counsel?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to Elohim? Shall that which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for value and another not for value? 22And if Elohim, desiring to show wrath, and to make His power known, with much patience tolerated the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His esteem on vessels of compassion, which He had prepared beforehand for esteem, 24even whom He called, not only us of the Yehudim, but also of the gentiles?


Note: translation ISR Scriptures

If Yada or KP addressed this in their works I've missed it so far, but would appreciate either their input or others in understanding this passage and concept.

As a starting point, I accept that Yahuweh knows the culmination of individuals choices in advance without coercing the outcome (freewill despite foreknowledge). He did what was needed to restore fellowship with Him and gave a role to those who do relationally know and are adopted by Him to share His word and Spirit with those who do not know Him and that He is willing to tolerate the many who choose to ignore Him to reach the few who choose otherwise.

Predestination advocates seem to accept the inevitability of the elect and the damned and people have little or no role. This reminds me some of the fatalism found in Islam and similar religons where beriyth is fated and essentially choiceless.
Offline kp  
#2 Posted : Friday, July 20, 2007 5:25:06 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Ah, the prototypical scriptural sticky wicket. After two thousand years of folks trying to sort this out, I won't presume to offer the last word. I will, however, offer my opinion on the subject (bearing in mind that opinions are like chins---everybody's got at least one). Hang onto your hat, folks. This promises to get heavy.

The reason nobody can reconcile a loving God's foreknowlege---His knowing before the fact that some will be "lost"---with the idea that He must logically predestine these lost people to an eternity in "hell" is that practically nobody understands that there are three possible eternal destinations, not just two. If heaven (eternal bliss in Yahweh's presence) and hell (everlasting torment being separated from Him) are the only two possibilities, then free will is a meaningless concept. It would require that everyone consciously choose one destiny or the other by overtly choosing to either love Yahweh or hate Him. But in any binary system there must be a "default setting"---on or off, yes or no, love or hate. So which is it? Which thing is true---that Yahweh doesn't wish that any should perish? Or that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? Indeed, in a binary spiritual scenario, both things cannot be true.

The fact is, our experience tells us that very few in this world make a spiritual choice of any kind---in reality, the default setting is "neither." If "love requires choice" (and it does), then it's equally true that choice requires knowledge---maybe not a lot, but some. (The converse is true as well: hate requires choice, and this choice too requires knowledge.) When Hosea reported Yahweh's lament: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge," he was saying that a lack of knowledge leads to the default spiritual setting: destruction, annihilation, nothingness. It's not really a bad thing: in comparison with hell's eternal waking torment, it is the most tender of mercies. But it ain't heaven by a long shot. The default is neither on nor off. It is neutral.

So are we "predestined" to dissipation---"door number two"---if we do not choose? No, not really, for predestination assumes volition on God's part, and He has told us a hundred different ways that the choice is ours to make, not His. We are predestined to something, but it isn't our eternal destiny. It's our condition or nature within that destiny. Have we chosen to defy Yahweh and lead His sheep astray, to "supress the truth in unrighteousness"? Then our condition within our chosen destination---door number three---will be "uncleanness," "vile passions," and a "debased mind." (See Romans 1) Have we chosen rather to become a child of Yahweh, to enter "door number one"? Then God (who foreknew that we would make this choice) "predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son," and being thus predestined, were "called," "justified," and finally "glorified." (Romans 8:29-30) And what of those multitudes who make no choice? They are predestined to nothing at all---literally. Spiritually, they don't even exist.

We believers are also "predestined" (though this isn't quite the right word), to function in some particular way in the Kingdom of God. We are given separate and distinct jobs to do. The "vessels" to which our brother Theophilus referred (elsewhere symbolized by being contrasting members of the "body of Christ," hands, feet, or whatever, but always with Yahshua as the head) are not positions we assign ourselves. We are each gifted individually, and our gifts are chosen by God. It is up to us to identify our gifts and use them in Yahweh's service and for His glory.

kp
Offline bitnet  
#3 Posted : Saturday, January 5, 2008 3:44:30 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

I have often pondered over this for the past 20 years and mostly concur with what KP says here. This is closely linked with your understanding of why you are (being) saved, and what happens to the others who are not saved. The three door understanding leads to some very interesting aspects of Yahweh, who is merciful and loving. Perhaps in time I'll find a better way to describe it based on Scripture. But meanwhile, predestination of those called does not imply an automatic ticket to eternity. It simply means that you have been given an early queue number! Now whether you decide to get in line and get into the game or simply stay on the sidelines is up to you. It is a matter of choice.

Looking at how Yahuweh sets it up, it is not by blind chance either that your name came up in the lottery of life. Yahuweh saw that you, in your current situation in your current environment, have access to the Truth. Not everyone has this opportunity, but you who are predestined because of your circumstances, have been given this incredible chance. It is up to you to get in line for the party; the ticket is free should you want it. Think carefully of this ecample: would a young man in a small village in the jungles of Brazil get this message? No? Would Yahuweh then condemn him to an eternity in hellfire and brimstone? That would be inconsistent with a loving Creator. No loving Creator would make a person, put him in this world for a finite period of a few decades just to see whether he is good or bad, and if bad, torture the person for eternity. That Creator is not Yahuweh but is known by several other names.

So the weight and enormity of this understanding of predestination is incredible because it means that it is a special invitation. The party will eventually be attended by much of humanity, but you get in first to be with the Host and help prepare the party. Now ain't it great!?
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline nagantmosin  
#4 Posted : Sunday, January 6, 2008 1:54:33 PM(UTC)
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Joined: 1/6/2008(UTC)
Posts: 19
Location: Germany

Yahuweh has planned all things before the world existed. The hairs on our head are literally numbered. He controls how many blades of grass are on the ground, how many leaves on the trees, how many cells are in your body, how many grains of sand are on the seashore, He has numbered the stars, declared the end from the beginning, speaks of those things that do not yet exist as though they do, etc...

On the same note, he has chosen some for deliverance from judgment, and some He has "prepared for destruction" Rom. 9. We are clay in the potters hands, which is why we are admonished to :
Php 2:12 not only in my presence, but now much rather in my absence – work out your own deliverance with fear and trembling,
Php 2:13 for it is Elohim who is working in you both to desire and to work for His good pleasure.

Thus, this is why there are hundreds of commands in the Scriptures to "FEAR Elohim".

Also, how are we also not "free agents"? I do not feel like a robot, do you? I can take up my pocket knife right now and stab myself in the thigh. I have the power to do that unless Yahuweh intervenes. But again, my reasoning and my nature tell me that it is a foolish deed and will cause me pain--which I do not like. Though I have the ability to choose to do that it is not what I want and serves no purpose to me and will cause me harm. A crude illustration, but I hope it helps.

Yahuweh tells us we have choices to make and decisions to make in our lives. He also tells us He inclines the hearts of men however he wants to. So both are true. You choose and live with the consequences of your choices. At the same time, Yahuweh is in control of everything. How is this difficult, unless our pride does not want us to acknowledge and submit to His power and authority?

Nor do I have a "fatalistic" attitude. I am deeply humbled at MY OWN powerlessness, and thus I am driven to the "throne of favor for help in time of need".

Remember, Messiah said "Without me, you can do nothing".


Favor and peace to all,

N
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#5 Posted : Friday, March 7, 2008 6:46:12 PM(UTC)
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Joined: 3/7/2008(UTC)
Posts: 133
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Location: USA

Hello, Im new to this forum and also to the salvation of the lord.

I was a Mormon for 18 yrs until christ save me. I truly believed I could choose or accept Christ as was taught in the Church until Christ healed my hearing and seeing of His words. Romans chpt. 9 is defining Eph. 1:3-5,11 which is talking about election and predestination by purpose and counsel of His own will. It also states this took place before He even laid the foundation of world, even the plan of grace (free gift) was in place. Rev.13:8 lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The book of John tells that nobody can come to Christ unless the father draws them, Christ came to save them that were given to him by the Father, and He will save all of them and not lose one. Some verses to reference are: John chpt.6:37-38, 44, 64, 65. Also in John 6:28,29 it says its Gods work to make us believe. We know that all come short of the glory of God. Look at Psalms 14:1-3 and Rom 3:10-12 it tells us nobody seeks or understands God, there are none that are righteous, no not one. In Psalms 58:2 we learn we are enstrange from the womb, born with a wicked heart.

Jerermiah 17:9 says the heart is wicked and who can know it. It is our pride that makes us think or believe we are righteous when we are not. In Isaiah 64:6 it says our righteousness are as filthy rags. The word of God says we have to come before him with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, we can't because are heart is wicked. We must first be elected by God, then it is He who will give us a new heart and spirit. Ezkekiel 36:24-27: He will sprinkle us with water (gospel-baptism of the holy spirit) wash us and renew our minds.

It is the work of Christ the perfect word and work of God. Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. I know we have a hope in eternal salvation by the promise made by God. We don't know we were chosen until our appionted time. Lamentations 2:22-26 tells to hope and quitely wait for our salvation.

Also, read Romans 8:24,25. I hope this helps anyone with questions about salvation. Our faith and righteousness is not of are own, but of Christ Jesus.

Sorry for grammer and stuff like that, I'm not good at writing or anything doing with it. May God bless all of you.

Truth b-told

God is love - the choice is His.

Mod team: edited to small case so my eyes aren't having difficulty reading the post - Swalchy

Edited by user Saturday, March 8, 2008 1:41:00 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Robskiwarrior  
#6 Posted : Friday, March 7, 2008 10:16:38 PM(UTC)
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Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Welcome to the forums Truth :) - as for your grammer and things, it might make it easyier to read if you dont have it all in upper case...
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline bitnet  
#7 Posted : Friday, March 7, 2008 10:46:34 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom Truth-B-Told,

Welcome to the forum! First I'd like to invite you to check if your keyboard has lowercase letters or not. If the Caps Lock light is on please press the Caps Lock key again so that you won't come across as shouting as uppercase text is usually seen as shouting.

After reading your post, I'm still trying to understand what you are trying to say. It's not the grammar but the content. Your last sentence seems to indicate that God chooses whom He will save. Of this we are all certain! What we are trying to understand a little better is how the Creator chooses, and why He chooses, and what of the others whom He did not choose now.

I have posited that some of us are called now so that we can serve a purpose the He has planned for us, and that many are not called because of their circumstances. But I also propose that He is not condemning those whom He did not call to Him now but shall make Himself known to them later. Those whom He has called now have this lifetime to decide how to respond. For those whom He has called, today is our day of salvation. If we turn away from Him now then there is little left for us to look forward to when we exit this world. IMHO, predestination is not about the Creator deciding who goes to heaven or hell before they are created, but those whom He has decided to call before they were created. It is up to those whom He has called to answer, and their answer shall determine their future fate. Simple, yes?

Shalom Aleichem
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#8 Posted : Monday, March 10, 2008 2:05:11 PM(UTC)
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Joined: 3/7/2008(UTC)
Posts: 133
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Location: USA

After reading your post, I'm still trying to understand what you are trying to say. It's not the grammar but the content. Your last sentence seems to indicate that God chooses whom He will save. Of this we are all certain! What we are trying to understand a little better is how the Creator chooses, and why He chooses, and what of the others whom He did not choose now.

Shalom Bitnet,


Thanks for the reply! I will first try to give you more insight into the 3 questions you posed to me in your post. I’ll start with the first and most difficult one, which is how the Creator chooses whom he has elected. The answer is…he doesn’t tell us, but he does give us a lot of info about that in which he chooses from. As I already shared Ps.14:1-3 and Rom 3:10-12 tells us that God looked down upon the children of men (looking through the history of mankind) and he found no one worth being a Son of God. He didn’t see some of us that were going to believe in him or his words. He says nobody would even seek after him and because we are created in his image and we have his laws written in our hearts, we do know there is a God, but nobody will seek the one true God. That put God in the position to destroy all of us, for the penalty of sin is death. In James 2:10 God tells us that if we break one of his laws we are guilty of all the law. So God sees all of mankind as equally guilty of the whole law. We can also learn in Deut. 10:17 and Rom 2:11 that God is no respecter of persons. So, although he doesn’t tell how he chose his elect, we do know they were just as guilty of the whole law as anyone else. My personal thinking is he doesn’t tell us because if he did we would all try vainly to become that by which he chooses. This is kind of like the false doctrine of a freewill /works gospel that started in the churches. Now, to why he chooses is because we, by nature, are the enemy of God and we will, by nature, rebel against God and choose death rather than life. So he tells us in Ezek. 36:21-23 that he doesn’t even do this for our sakes, but for my holy names sake. God to restore his name and glory wouldn’t allow his creation to be a failure. Which it would’ve been had he destroyed everything he created and started from scratch all over again. So, he took that which was corrupted and makes it to his glory. He didn’t save us because he loved us, he loves us with untold love through his mercy because we are now sons of God. As to the ones to whom he did not elect, they will be put to death forever more.

I would also like to share with you two samples of how God shows us how he gives someone the gift of life. God gives us the bringing back to life Lazarus, he calls him forth knowing that he is dead (like us in our sins). Lazarus cant hear Christ, that would be impossible. So Christ had to perform a miracle and restore his hearing first. Then he would breath life back into him. The word of god also gives us the conversion of Saul of Tarus, whom was a sworn enemy of Christ and all of whom believed on him. Saul didn’t trust, accept, seek or understand Christ, but he was of the election. So Christ had to save him. He blinded him, spoke to him, and then he healed him. We all are born blinded from the truth, John 9:1-3 so that the works of Christ can be manifest in us to show the mercy, love and glory of God.

The holy word of god tells us in John 15:16, God chose us we did not choose him. It is a theme that runs thoughout the whole Bible. I’ve searched the scriptures for proof that we must do something such as accepting Christ for the price paid for our sins and I can’t find any. I’ve also have spoken with countless people who hold this line of thinking and they can’t show me anywhere in the scriptures to prove this. Maybe you might know of some? If you can, please share them with me I would appreciate it. Some other verses that might help also, which shows God’s will, not ours, is that which will be done…
John1:12-13; Romans 9:16; Eph 1:3-9, 11; Eph 2:5-9; Romans 9:11-21; Finally read Galatians 2:21 which tells us not to frustrate the grace of God.
So is the question of choice/election. So simple? Maybe not, but then again maybe it is!
I hope this helps you get a better understanding of election,if you have anymore question or just want more infomation please let me know and I will do the best I can to help you.
May God bless us all.


Edited by user Monday, March 10, 2008 3:43:05 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline bitnet  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:05:07 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom Truth-B-Told,

You are right in that there is nowhere in Scripture that explains clearly how we are chosen, lest we boast of it. However, the verses you quote do provide some guidelines as to what our Creator intends with His creation, however the creation views Him in the present. That said, it is His choice to call whom He chooses, and that is the extent of predestination. It is limited to the calling, not the saving! We on our part have to decide how to respond appropriately to be saved. In that we are sure because many are called but few are chosen!

So, if you are still trying to find Scripture that says we must accept the Sacrifice before we can be saved, then perhaps it may a good thing for to read again YY in its entirety together with all the apostolic letters in Scripture! Accepting the Sacrifice is part of the "process" and there is much more, and the "works" part only reflects one's status in the coming Kingdom, and does not ensure that one is saved or not. So, are we saying that believing and accepting His Sacrifice is "works"? Of course not! Everything that we have is from Him and it is through Yahushua and His Sacrifice that we get into His Kingdom. This is the message that is simple. We fall far short of the mark but He has made it easier for us to cross the finishing line through His Sacrifice.

None of us are predestined to be saved. In other words, none of us have a license for eternal life to slap our Creator and the creation around simply because He predestined us to be called. This is another form of errant gnosticism. One simply cannot claim "I am saved because I have heard!" and do nothing to reflect the grace and beauty of the MessiYah. Those who claim salvation without regard for His instructions are doomed. Even the Hebrews who were redeemed from Egypt had to sacrifice an unblemished lamb and brush the blood on the door lintels and posts and roast the lamb and eat it together with herbs and vegetables, all of which are based on His instructions. The Sabbath and Feasts or Miqra are there for us to observe, for our enlightenment. Will observing it save us? Of course not! But if one is willfully denying the Sabbath and Miqra because it does not save, then one is guilty of not obeying Him, and where does that disobedience lead to? Hence when we ask for forgiveness we ask for what we have done and for what we have failed to do!

In the end of it all, He chose us, called us at a particular time in our life and we have to do our part. There is no way we can get into His Kingdom if we do not accept His plan of salvation and ignore His instructions, and He definitely will not force us in if we willingly, forcefully rebel against Him.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#10 Posted : Saturday, March 15, 2008 7:56:42 AM(UTC)
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Joined: 3/7/2008(UTC)
Posts: 133
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Location: USA

Shalom Bitnet, After reading your last post ,I would like to say to you and all that may be reading the correspondence between us,that one can't define the scriptures through the imagination of our own minds and the deceitfulness of our own hearts.I know one does this to fit the scriptures to justify the gospel inwhich they believe in,but the word of God is of no privite interpretation.We must let the word of God define itself.So first I will touch on some of the things inwhich you said.You say the extent of predestination is to the calling,not the saving,you couldn't have gotten that from Eph.1:5.It says that we are predestinated in to the adoption of childern by Christ to himself and Rom.8:29 says God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of Christ.By letting the scriptures define predestination we can see it means we are adopted to be the Sons of God and we will be conformed to his image. Then we have "works" you say...that believing and accepting his sacrifice is "works"?Of course not!As if this this is truth.Now lets see what Gods word has to say on the matter.Faith is the root word for believing,check the " greek" and the word of God tells us in Gal.5:6 ... faith worketh by love.. and also in 1 Thess.1:3 ...your work of faith and labour of love.. as you can see God defines "faith" as a work.So believing is indeed a work.Now we can go to your last sentence inwhich you said,...He definitely will not force us in if we willing, forcefully rebel against Him. and you make this comment right after I had just given you an example of this exact thing with the conversion of Saul.Saul was indeed willingly,forcefully, and I might add violently rebelling against God,his people,and his gospel.Saul heard and knew what the gospel of Christ was,but it didn't agree with it ,so not only did he reject it ,he try to exterminate it .Christ said why do you persacute me(Christ) to Christ Saul was trying to kill him,but as we know that didn't stop him from becoming a Son of God.Christ did indeed capture Saul and take him prisoner,did the work for his salvation,made him a "new creature" in the likeness of christ himself,and gave him a desire and the will to walk after the commandments and statues of God. See we must trust in the words of God and not what we think the scriptures mean,read all of 1 Cor.chpt.2 ,no man can know the way of God unless it be told to him by the spririt of God,for they are foolish to him. For let God be true,but every man a liar.In Prov.30:6 we read "add thou not unto his words,lest he reprove thee,and thou be found a liar." We can't say one must accept the Lord before he can become save when He tells us that we become save ,then we can believe.Believe not this things because man has said them,but because God has said them. We must beg God for mercy,knowledge,and wisdom,then hope and quitely wait upon the Lord for our salvation. For every sin is willingly and forcefully rebelling against God. May He show us mercy.

Edited by user Saturday, March 15, 2008 9:22:23 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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