This might belong in the Twilight Zone, but maybe Torah afterall. I hope once again you'll indulge my taking a conversation from another source and getting your feed back on it from a YY TOM perspective. A friend of mine who now describes herself as a Messianic Jew, a Judaizer, a student of the oral law / Talmud and most recently a Rabbi without a congregation created a topic with the title Christianity v Paulianity. It goes as follows:



This reminded me of the question KP asked at the begining of TOM. How are we to understand the Law in light of the renewed covenant. I'll have to find out what 10 mitvot are for all Gentiles and Jews?

Seems like she is going down a road that leads to her being a former Messianic Yahudi. In the Messianic movement people including Rabbis are leaving in droves due to an anti missionary infiltration into their congregations. Perhaps I sound paranoid...but I know personally of at least one congregation that has had to deal with this. Part of the problem stems from the fact that these congregations scream...WE'RE JEWISH, HEY...LOOK, WE'RE JEWISH!!!...and whisper...and we believe in Messiah, Yeshua. The problem is an issue of emphasis. It's a sad reality...that happens mostly over appearances....and presumptions. Who looks more pious...the orthodox Jew with his side curls and long beard and spartan black clothing or the Messianic who is often does not look the part...according to peoples expectations? I don't know what the answer is...well actually I do know..it's leaning on the word of Yahuweh to get through your insecurities and fears....All that being Said...this is not Paul's problem....There has always been a faithful remnant in Messianic Belief that has held to the Sabbath, The Miqrym, and the appropriate Torah precepts in places diverse as Ethiopia and Transylvania....EVEN WITH PAUL's LETTERS!!! The message he is trying to get accross is one of emphasis and trying to teach and tell people not to put the cart before the horse...or for that matter call the cart a horse. or say the cart and the horse do the same thing....and even though it's been nearly 2000 years..the Modern Messianic movement still doesn't get it....and suffers due their stubborness, ignorance...and hatred of and towards, Rav Shaul Paul.

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."...I don't think Shaul Paul could have made it any clearer...especially when you consider that at the time he was writing this there was no canonized new covenant scriptures.

It's like she is so close but so far away

When she says the old 613 mantra...or in her case 603+10...she has already fallen into a trap. As kp demonstrated over and over again the 613 codification is a construct and as a list is often padded with extrapolations and assumptions...and POWER GRABS for the religious rabbinic establishment. What I say for what it's worth is read the text without any presumptions or expectations...get what you can get out of it on the practical sense and more importantly the spiritual sense. She is right that in the religious institution of Christianity you only hear a certain amount and have even less of a chance to apply it in a practical sense...but is Rabbinic Judaism better in denying what the entire Torah...and for that matter the Tanakh points to?
I hope this will make some sense, but this is how I see it. The Torah (and the Tanakh) is a textbook....let's say a math textbook. It teaches you basic arithmetic, algebra, trigonometry, geometry, calculus and all these things you learn step by step are preparing you for Quantum Mechanics. Quantum Mechanics is great, and wonderful...with that knowledge you can send people to the moon...but that does not do away with basic arithmetic....we still need to go to the supermarket...after all....but at the same time let's not forget that we learned all of those formative disciplines so we could have the ability to learn Q.M.....not reject to Quantum mechanics and instead claim that algebra is the greatest purpose of the textbook. As I said...Paul is trying to put things in perspective...and he should not be the whipping boy of Messianic Judaism...especially in light of the fact that his explantions if explained properly are the surest way to stem the tide of counter-missionizing.
And as to what she said about Rav Paul of blessed memory is libel. Christianity is not a product of Paul any more than Rabbinic Judaism is a product of the Torah. Both have been used to "boil the kid in it's mother's milk" Christianity is a product of Constantinian fornication with Roman sungod worship more than anything else. Paul didn't talk about Christmas, or Easter, or prayers for the dead, or confession....or anything else that this forum generally despises about THE RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION of Christianity...in it's many and varying forms. If she goes down that road she might as well say that Yahushuaism is christianity as we know it today because He has been used just like Paul/Shaul to justify sabbath breaking, unclean eating, and many other things.
Are you really serious that she has proclaimed herself a rabbi?

Peace Everyone,

I'm sorry but anti-paulists are either very confused or deep down hate Father Yahweh. For in order to do away with 2/3s of the Renewed Covenant scriptures there must be something wrong. And not to be offensive but Doctrinal teaching is not supposed to come through women. Don't take that the wrong way I do not think of women as stupid or insignificant, but the do tend to be swept away be emotion. Which is useful if regulated properly. Women are as needed in the congregations as men, but should filter their knowledge though a man.... Which simply means discuss and refine their points with either their husband or a spiritual elder, and if that person is truly a man of Elohim credit will be placed with the originator of the idea. Besides pride should not delude you to think that you deserve praise for the thoughts of Yahweh. I didn't mean to go on a rant, but I believe this is pertinent to this conversation.

1Co 14:34 Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for they are not allowed to speak, but let them subject themselves, as the Torah also says. ISR

Your Loving Brother,
Michael Browell

Although I should probably have filtered this through you first, I think a few things need clarification here.

1) By eliminating the ability to discourse for women from the Ekklesia, Lucifer has effectively removed 50% of the believing population - Kul HaKavod!!!

2) Read and understand the Greek. I think that this particular passage has been twisted along with the rest of the NC, please remember that the subjugation of women is a trademark of RELIGION.

3) "tend to be swept away by emotion" - at least tend to be isn't all... If the RQ is working in a person, who do we think we are to shut them up? This goes for Paul, women, children and a donkey, unless I'm mistaken.

Please, we need to get away from this sort of thinking, in Yahashua there is neither male nor female, bond nor free, Jew nor Gentile. For women to 'filter their knowledge' would be the same as saying, "You can go to heaven, IF you tell all your sins to that nice man dressed in a black dress over there, oh, and don't forget to call him father."

However, since I am female I guess I had better check with my father or one of the male members of our e-Ekklesia before I post any more ;-)

As for Paul, we have had a similar thread before, Paul was separated out to the RQ, again, if the RQ says he's okay - we should probably be listening to what the man said, taken in the context of who he is saying it to, and when he said it.

Not a Jot not an iota of Law passed away..........It was instead fulfilled....I think I'll stick with Paul rather than Theo's friend.....Paul describes the new covenant well.... and dealt with these problems of Law vs. Grace quite well. He went so far as to claim that the WHOLE law is fulfilled by one principle " Love your neighbor as yourself." This is a problem.

I was going to look into the "Is Paul a real Apostle/Was Paul divinely inspired?" debate, but my friend who is a pastor pointed out at the end of 2 Peter, Peter verifies that Paul's writings are Scripture (at least that's what the English say). I think we can trust Peter, since He was well-documented as getting approval from Yahushua. Therefore, I think we can trust Paul.