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Offline shalom82  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, October 3, 2007 1:21:58 PM(UTC)
shalom82
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Is it ok to have a wedding celebration on the Sabbath? If the heavy work as far as preparing food was done before hand and setting things up was done would it be wrong to have a wedding celebration on the Sabbath? This Summer my wife and I came back to America after 3 years abroad in China. Since we never had a wedding or a celebration in America my parents wanted to do something to that effect. The only truly viable day to do something like this would be Saturday because many guests have travel involved and being that work would start on Monday, Sunday would be no good. I would like to hear your opinions

Shalom
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Noach  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, October 3, 2007 6:26:39 PM(UTC)
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Shalom82,

It is very important that you do what your conscience directs you to do. You have it for a reason. But here is the problem as I see it with conducting a wedding or any other hosted celebration on the Shabbath. By you choosing to have the celebration on the Shabbath, you will force people to have to work for you to host the event. People like caterers, florists, wedding planners, photographers, musicians, location hosts, etc... All doing their normal jobs, all getting paid. They probably won't complain about having to work on the shabbath for you, but they probably don't know any better either though. Yahushua is our model and I don't remember him hosting, conducting, or partaking in a wedding celebration on the Shabbath. Just an observation. By conducting your wedding on the shabbath, are you setting the day apart or utilizing it for the benefit of those who don't really care about the shabbath?

Let me ask a question, is sunday really that hard to accomodate an early morning wedding?

Noach
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, October 3, 2007 10:08:27 PM(UTC)
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Noach wrote:

People like caterers, florists, wedding planners, photographers, musicians, location hosts, etc...


the UK and the US are quite different lol
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Icy  
#4 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2007 3:31:00 AM(UTC)
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I would agree with Noach, unless the celebration is like mine was: Family took care of everything, food, deocrations, location, etc. No one was paid anything, unless you count the store where the food was bought.

I would say that if you do something like that, where you are not causing others to have to do the work they do for a living, then go for it. Otherwise, you might want to consider a Saturday evening or Sunday morning.
Offline Devildog  
#5 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2007 6:00:07 AM(UTC)
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Hi guys,
By following this same logic, where does it stop? Can I no longer get gas on a sabbath because it "forces" someone to be at their normal occupation? Grocery shoping? Busch Gardens? It just doesn't seem correct to me, but what do I know. I really have no answer for it, but my gut says it is fine. Shalom82 seems to know Yahuweh, so I don't see why the event can't be focused on Him anyway- "forcing" Sabbath observance LOL. Afterall, Yah is all about family, and marriage. It very well may please Him if done correctly, using His model to teach and instruct.
Offline shohn  
#6 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2007 11:02:18 AM(UTC)
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Don't mix dairy and meat!
--
Shohn of Texas
Offline shalom82  
#7 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2007 5:18:14 PM(UTC)
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Well, this is going to be a small affair at my family's farm. My parents are not on the same page with me as far as belief goes, but I said if there was going to be any kind of celebration on a Saturday that the food and setup would have to be prepared the day before. The only thing we are hiring out is the cake and that can be done and paid for beforehand. There are not going to be any photographers or musicians or florists. And to answer the question about making it on Sunday yes it would be too difficult to do. There is long distance travel involved for many people who are coming and many of them would not be able to come if we had it on a Sunday. Like it or lump it, many on my mother's side of the family are devout protestants...many that I have not seen for 2 or 3 years and I understand that this is no reason to break the sabbath but I would like to see them. That's why I asked why it would be appropriate. I can be pretty sure that no Sabbath regulations are going to be broken as far as the letter is concerned, but as far as the spiritual side, that is what I was worried about. I am not looking for justification or somebody to stroke my failing conscience, I was just wondering if anybody had information that would be pertinent to the question.

and Shohn....are you serious or joking?....I hope you are joking.

Shalom
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline shohn  
#8 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2007 5:44:50 PM(UTC)
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Well it was supposed to be a joke. I guess I'll keep my day job.
--
Shohn of Texas
Offline shalom82  
#9 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2007 5:55:52 PM(UTC)
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Shohn, just wanted to make sure.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......ha
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Matthew  
#10 Posted : Friday, December 28, 2007 7:16:14 AM(UTC)
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I apologize for asking as this does not really follow the topic of conversation but my wife, an unbeliever, wants to go to the zoo tomorrow, a Sabbath, to take the little kids to see the animals. I've tried to push it to Sunday without hinting why. After asking me why I came out honestly, saying that she knew the answer, that it was the Sabbath day. I've been given an ultimatum, either compromise or pack my bags. I've been trying to keep the Sabbath Rest as best I can as I'm fairly new to this understanding. So I keep it by what I understand and learn as I go along. There are times I have to compromise because I don't fully understand it. Usually this is because I don't want my wife to become upset. But I'm coming to the stage where I can stand compromising, so I want to know how to keep it properly, I want the day to be dedicated to Yahweh and spending it with Him.

So my question is what can and cannot one do on the Sabbath? How is it different under the renewed covenant?

From reading the post, in my personal view filling up with gas is not right, doing the grocery shopping, anything that requires someone else to work (their normal ordinary job). But I haven't done a very in depth study concerning the Sabbath Rest because I find a lot of conflicting do's and don'ts. I try spend it at home, at least, but the wife expects to go out and do something, even if it's just to go have lunch with the rest of the family. Is going to go have lunch (and spending the rest of the day there) with the rest of the family in keeping with the Sabbath Rest, when they themselves are unbelievers and tend to have the TV on and watch a bit of Saturday football (soccer), or on a children's channel for the kids?

shalom82 wrote:
I can be pretty sure that no Sabbath regulations are going to be broken as far as the letter is concerned, but as far as the spiritual side, that is what I was worried about.


What do you, shalom82, mean by the difference between the letter and spiritual side? Is there a difference between the two?

Where can I find a good guide concerning Sabbath Rest, preferably free online? What does the Scriptures mean by "picking up sticks" where the one guy in Moses' day was killed for it?

Some people say you can't even drive on the Sabbath but I think it's fine to drive as it's the same as walking. Consider Acts 1:12 "Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day's walk from the city." What's the correct interpretation of a Sabbath day's walk?
Offline Noach  
#11 Posted : Friday, December 28, 2007 6:56:14 PM(UTC)
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Matthew,

Fossilized Customs by Lew White has a lot of great and helpful nformation concerning the Sabbath, including the Sabbath distance. Acts 1:12 mentions the Sabbath distance from Jerusalem to the mount called Olivet. Lew notes that this 1,000 cubit distance was same distance as the encampments of Israel from the tent of meeting in the wilderness. It was really their place or vicinity. I think the direction concerning the Sabbath is somewhat open ended because Yahuwah does not want to dictate how we are to rest. The main point is to rest though in our place or vicinity. If your place or vicinity is he size of London though, you may need to apply this Sabbath distance. If you have to drive anywhere it may be too far based on what we know about the Sabbath distance.

The guy picking up sticks you refered to was gathhering wood on the Sabbath and Israel was specifically directed not to. His lack of obedience showed his lack of trust in Yahuwah and this could not be permitted.

There are definetly a lot of man made do's and dont's, but if you focus on resting, these conflicts tend to get erased. The Command is simple for a reason, just stay in you place and focus on resting, this will set the day apart. If resting and staying in your place means hopping in the pre-filled car and taking a Saturday drive to the sandwich shop and then driving back to your families home to watch some TV and then driving back to your house and your conscience is at rest then you are fullfilling the Sabbath. If not, and your conscience tells you to stay home and sleep then you are also fine. You have a conscience for a reason, go with it.

Noach

Offline gammafighter  
#12 Posted : Friday, December 28, 2007 10:13:24 PM(UTC)
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Matthew, I am working through this same topic. I pray about it at least every Sabbath. Honestly, I don't think anyone knows exactly how we are to rest. I agree with Noach in that it is pretty open-ended. The Torah says to rest. Not much more specifics. From what i've been reading in The Owner's Manual, it seems like there are a lot of things in the Torah that teach dependence on YHWH rather than our own strength. This seems to be one of them- resting from our normal work and instead trusting in YHWH. I would say that this includes not having other people work for you. I personally would avoid eating at a restaurant, but Scripture doesn't specify. We know that the Pharisees were condemned by Yahushua for forcing others to work on the Sabbath so that they didn't have to. So I wouldn't send your wife to the zoo with the kids so that you wouldn't have to break the Sabbath.

It's tough, but luckily, our Abba will welcome us back and forgive us for anything. I think it makes Him happy to see us do our best and come back to Him for help when we mess up. :)
Offline jojocc  
#13 Posted : Friday, December 28, 2007 10:27:16 PM(UTC)
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I think we need to remember that the Sabbath is there to serve us, not the other way around. Here they have take things to the extreme, my new oven toaster has a shabat mode so that I don't have to turn it on and break the sabbath!

I am afraid that if we are going according to man's rules, I break shabat all the time, I boil my kettle (kumkum in Hebrew - I just love the sound of this word) and make tea, I wash up afterwards, I drive my car (although here the petrol stations are self-service) and I often go sightseeing on the sabath. YHWH gave us this day to contemplate and relax, for me that sometimes involves driving to the middle of the desert, or to the beach. I also find it very easy to talk to YHWH when I am out of the house, the new things I see help me to give thanks, especially with some of the scenery round here.

I cannot tell anyone what to do, but I know that f I work (in my job) on Shabat, I feel really crap afterwards, and I'm trying to get my boss to be understanding. I will have to rely on YHWH for that one. I really do beleive though that the sabath is there to serve us, we do not want to become Pharasitical and make rules so that we become slaves to the Sabath, Yahashua healed a man on the Sabath!

To put it in the context of that famous Kennedy quotation, "Ask not what you can do for the Sabath, but what the Sabath can do for you."

Offline shalom82  
#14 Posted : Friday, December 28, 2007 11:39:04 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
"Ask not what you can do for the Sabath, but what the Sabath can do for you."



hoohoo, haha, ouch, touche'...trebuchet...he who laughs last...laughs best, stick that in your pipe and smoke it, how bout them apples?
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline kp  
#15 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2007 6:20:17 AM(UTC)
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Guys, as long as we're fixated on what activities we can or cannot do on the Sabbath day, we'll never understand what Yahweh tried to teach us by setting apart the day as an institution. Let's review the salient commandment: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of Yahweh your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days Yahweh made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore Yahweh blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it [i.e., set it apart]." (Exodus 20:8-11) His instruction: (1) "Remember" the day; keep it set apart from all others. And (2) Don't work on this day. Then He provided the foundational data: the Sabbath was commemorated for the same reason the creation account was presented the way is was: six days of work followed by one of rest. The raison d'etre of both concepts was therefore the same---God was trying to tell us one thing through both of them. And what would that be? Why would God want us not to work on one day of the week?

The point is simply this: in the end, we cannot work for our salvation; we cannot provide our own reconciliation with a holy God. We can only rest in the knowledge of the fact. To labor toward this end is to reject Yahweh's provision. You can't have it both ways. The creation week and the work week, then, are both pictures of our lives on this earth. While we're here, work is a good thing. Through it, we can provide good things for ourselves and our families in emulation of God's provision of the very world beneath our feet. But there is a point beyond which our works are neither appropriate nor efficacious---our spiritual reconciliation with Yahweh cannot be achieved through our labors. Think about it: what one part of creation did Yahweh leave undone during the creation "week"? He stopped short of choosing our spiritual destinies for us; He left the choice up to us. In the same way, we have a choice to make on the "seventh day": to work for our own redemption, or to rest in the salvation Yahweh has already provided through His Messiah, Yahshua. To work or not to work: that is the question.

"Work," then, needs to be carefully defined. In this context it is not "doing something strenuous" or "doing something you'd rather not." Rather, it's "doing something to provide for your own temporal needs." Matthew (our brother, not Yahshua's disciple) was worried about the ramifications of taking his kids to the zoo on the Sabbath. How, I ask you, could that possibly equate with working to provide for yourself? But (you may protest) what about setting the day apart to Yahweh? The two things need not be mutually exclusive. Quite the opposite, in fact. I'd see it as a perfect opportunity to teach your children something about the wonders of God's creation---His love of varitey, His sense of humor, His sheer creative genius. Yes, Yahweh wants you to spend the day with Him. He never said you couldn't bring your wife and kids along.

kp
Offline Noach  
#16 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2007 11:59:29 AM(UTC)
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I agree KP. To try and dictate what one should or shouldn't do on the Sabbath is a mistake and defeats the purpose of the Sabbath. Yahuwah did not specify what our activities are to be for a reason. The main focus though should be on resting and staying in our place. Based on Scripture, we can glean some other cues also.

"Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out. So the people rested on the seventh day" (Exodus 16:29-30). I think that joining in the hustle and bustle of Saturday fun day may be defeating the goal of this direction.

"I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the Sabbath..." (NehemYAH 13:19). ONce again, pretty clear direction that we should probably be staying where we are at. This doesn't mean you have to be jailed in your house, but that we should stay in our places and area. I don't think that there is any evidence of Yahushua or His disciples taking a trip anywhere on the Sabbath. There is also clear mention of a Sabbath days jorney already eluded to in past posts.

So does all this mean we pre fill the family car Friday night for a trip on the Sabbath? I don't think so, but that is just me and I am by no means dictating how one should spend heir Sabbath, but I think there is sufficient example from Scripture as to what our focus should be. Personally, I am focused on resting and staying in my place.

Noach
Offline bitnet  
#17 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2007 7:34:16 PM(UTC)
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Hello shalom82,

KP is right in that the observance of the Sabbath does a couple of things for us: it reminds us that we cannot work for our salvation, and that observing the set-apart time primarily for rest and/or spiritual purposes should be our aim. I like jojocc's reply because that is what I'd like to do as well, especially during the Feast of Tabernacles where a resort will provide everything we need as we can focus on our objectives. Are we forcing the non-believers to work and making them do something that they otherwise would not be doing? Their unbeliefs have led them to serve us, but we can through our Sabbath observances relay the message that it could be their proper day of rest as well.

Another point I'd like to make is that I have learnt that the Sabbath helps identify believers and those who rely on Yahweh. We do not have blood on our lintels or wear any cross or crucifix to identify us, but the Sabbath makes us distinct. Who else in this world would want to walk with Creator Yahweh and keep the days he tells us are set-apart and which belong to Him? The High Days are just as important and are now back on my calendar. I only hope that I have the right days as there seems to be some confusion between the calendars within Israel itself, something about differences between modernist, conservative and ultraconservative.

shalom82, you are getting married and it is a one bright day among many others more to come. I'm sure that you understand the importance of the Sabbaths and this one may be especially significant to you in the future.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline J&M  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, January 1, 2008 6:21:24 AM(UTC)
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Noach, I hope the family car has all mod. cons or else the sabbath is going to be pretty unique in its sweet smelling odours....

Yehushua ended up in a wheat field on the sabbath, which prompted the 'man was made for sabbath' dialogue. I often go fishing on the sabbath, then drop in to my mother and share the catch (usually rainbow trout). My youngest son often comes with, and last time, my oldest came, for the first time in 16 years.

Sabbath was made for us so we can freely work with the Ruarch Quodesh to BE part of His family at least once a week, if we do this by fishing or playing football, then it is part of our personal relationship with our personal GOD (Elohim). So enjoy it, there are no rules, my sabbath is made for me, personally!

Edited by user Wednesday, January 2, 2008 11:09:27 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Matthew  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, January 2, 2008 3:57:08 AM(UTC)
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Thanks everyone for your responses, this dialogue has really helped me.

I've just found too many different opinions on this subject and it has confused me quite a bit. I see so many do's and don'ts that it ends up becoming my focus instead of my relationship with Yahweh becoming my focus, especially to rest on the fact that we cannot work for our salvation.

I'm so thankful for this forum, and the associated books that help me better understand and know Yahweh and His Salvation, Yahshua.
Offline galatian35  
#20 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:34:10 PM(UTC)
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Get married on the Sabbath, What better way to honour you marriage! The union of a man and a woman in the sight of or creator, and if you are unsure read Galatians, and Ephesians.

When was the wedding in Cana of Galilee where Yahshua changed the water into wine? The Sabbath??

Bleesing on you in your union, do not lose sight of why the Messiah came was to set you free from all the dogma!!!!!
Offline Matthew  
#21 Posted : Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:04:25 AM(UTC)
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galatian35 wrote:
Get married on the Sabbath, What better way to honour you marriage!


Yup, when I initially read the post I thought it was a good thing too.

But I got sidetracked we I started thinking about doubtful areas in my own life that I was trying to figure out. Sabbath resting is still new to me, just trying to learn the truth and chuck out all "dogma" concerning it.
Offline galatian35  
#22 Posted : Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:04:56 PM(UTC)
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Matthew, if you are confused keep praying and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you! Then act on it the enemy of your soul wants to tie you up with confusion,remeber you are getting married and doing this before the Father, did not the Pharasies acuse the Messiah of working on the Sabbath when he healed a man, and what was his reply? Jesus (Yahshua) did what he saw his Father in heaven doing by. doing good on the Sabbath.

What did the early believers do they went to Church, doen't it seem logical that you are doing the same thing on the Sabbath and asking the Father to bless your union, enter into the rest of the Father!!

Bless yall
Offline Matthew  
#23 Posted : Friday, January 25, 2008 3:34:26 AM(UTC)
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No, it wasn't me getting married but shalom82 is the one getting married. When I read the topic for the first time I thought shalom82 was doing a good thing, but before I responded to say that I got sidetracked about my own concerns about resting on the Sabbath, especially with my wife as an unbeliever.

Nevertheless, I agree with you and just direct it towards shalom82
Offline galatian35  
#24 Posted : Friday, January 25, 2008 6:46:14 PM(UTC)
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Sorry,Matthew!!
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