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The Torah - A List of Rules?
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Offline kp  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, July 4, 2007 9:39:31 AM(UTC)
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As a man living a normal American Christian life for well over half a century now, I have been taught (not told, but taught, if you catch the distinction) that the Torah (the "Law of Moses" as it's invariably called) is a list of rules that Christians needn't pay attention to anymore, 'cause now we're under grace. Whoopie--free at last! But as I got deeper and deeper into God's Word, I was faced with the nagging dichotomy between Scriptures (from both sides of Calvary) that revealed a God who didn't make mistakes---ever. So how could Yahweh be so careless as to lay down a bunch of rules for one group of people in one place and time, only to seem to forget about them later, all the while whining in generalized terms about how "nobody keeps My precepts anymore." In short, it was confusing, contradictory, and, more to the point, totally unlike the Yahweh I had come to know, love, and revere.

As it turns out, all the confusion and contradiction is an illusion precipitated by the traditions of men. Jews have twisted the Torah into a grotesque charicature of what it really is; Christians either ignore it altogether or run away screaming when they encounter it. In short, nobody gets it. That is, nobody comprehends (or behaves as if they comprehend) what the God who doesn't make mistakes meant by including this body of truth within His Word. So I did the unthinkable: I spent two or three years studying it (not that I'm "done," but I have reached a significant milestone). I decided to use---strictly for organizational purposes---the definitive Jewish "Laws list" perpetrated---excuse me, compiled---by Maimonides himself a thousand years ago. There are (the Talmud insists) 613 Laws in the Torah. Christians don't know what they are, Jews don't understand what they mean, and absolutely nobody keeps them. I decided it was high time to correct that problem.

The result was The Owner's Manual, a short little book (by my standards--it's under 500 pages) that compares the Torah with the rabbinical take on the Law of Moses. You can read it for free online by clicking on the link from Yada Yahweh. It's not really done, but I have made it all the way through Maimonides' 613 "laws." I invite you to check it out, out of curiosity if nothing else. What does the Torah really say? The answers may surprise you.

kp

Edited by user Monday, October 8, 2007 9:09:08 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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#2 Posted : Wednesday, July 4, 2007 6:51:21 PM(UTC)
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Polygamy is for a few individuals who can manage the responsibilities and the level of Tzedekah of Abraham to rightoues rule within it. ti is not for everyone. Adam and Eve are nothing more than a commentary on the beginnings. They do not aeffect the functionaing of the Torah in regards marriage except to support the mariage institution itself.
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#3 Posted : Thursday, July 5, 2007 3:13:25 AM(UTC)
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Polygamy? Here are a few salient snippets from The Owner's Manual. First, Mitzvah #73:

(73) Maimonides: Do not withhold food, clothing or conjugal rights from your wife. “If he takes another wife, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights. And if he does not do these three for her, then she shall go out free, without paying money.” (Exodus 21:10-11) What the rabbis said to do here was such a no-brainer, God never even mentioned it. What He did say was intended to protect subsequent wives from abuse. It is abundantly clear that Yahweh’s intended pattern for marriage was two people, a man and a woman, joined as one for a lifetime. However, strange as we may find it, He never overtly prohibited polygamy—although He made sure that every time we see it in practice in the scriptures, there’s trouble attached. Caveat emptor. This admonition in Exodus says, in our vernacular, You think you’re such a stud that you can handle two wives? Very well, I see it as a sign of arrogant stupidity, but knock yourself out. Just be aware that you’re going to have to be twice the man you were before—twice the man I made you, by the way. You can’t short-change your new wife in any way, not in financial matters, not in attention, not in support, and not in the bedroom. And if you find out the hard way that you can’t keep up your end of the bargain, don’t come crying to me when she cleans out your bank account. Okay, that’s a paraphrase, but you get the idea.

In a symbolic sense, Yahweh Himself is polygamous. He has separated Himself from His “first” wife, Israel, because of her unfaithfulness (see the book of Hosea). And now He has betrothed Himself to a new bride, the Ekklesia of Christ, who looks forward to consummating the union at the “marriage supper of the Lamb,” spoken of in Revelation 19. According to His own Law, Yahweh is prepared to treat the Church with the same level of devotion He affords to Israel. Will He restore Israel to her former place of blessing? Yes, but only after she repents of her wickedness. (Actually, it’s more complicated than that: see #78.) And how does Yahweh view this potentially awkward three-way relationship between Himself, the Church, and Israel? Brace yourself for some really heavy symbolism, and read the Song of Solomon. The key is: Solomon represents the Messiah, the Shulamite is the Church, and the daughters of Jerusalem are, well, the daughters of Jerusalem—Israel.

Then, since I referenced it...

(78) Maimonides: One who divorced his wife shall not remarry her if after the divorce she had been married to another man. “…Then her former husband who divorced her must not take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled.” (Deuteronomy 24:4) From the same passage as #77 above, we see a restriction place on the husband of the broken marriage: he is not to remarry the wife he previously divorced if she had been married to someone else in the meantime. This is where it gets a little confusing. The book of Hosea, especially the second chapter, seems at first to imply that Yahweh has different standards for Himself. In verse 2 He says, “She [Israel] is not my wife, nor am I her husband.” Israel, after unsuccessfully seeking other “lovers,” says in verse 7, “I will go and return to my first husband.” But then down in verse 16, we read, “It shall be in that day, says Yahweh, that you will call me ‘my Husband.’” And in verse 19, “I will betroth you to Me forever.” What gives? Is Yahweh breaking His own rules? He would be, except for one stunning detail: “From now on, we regard no one [e.g., Jews] according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.” (II Corinthians 5:16-19) The Israel to whom Yahweh will betroth Himself in the Last Days is not His old unfaithful wife, for she is prohibited by law from re-marrying her old Husband. Rather, she is now a new creation that, with the Church, has been made pure and undefiled by the blood of the Lamb of God. But until she is transformed in Spirit by receiving Yahshua, her renewed relationship with God is legally impossible. The implications should be stunning for any practicing Jew today: it is impossible to form a relationship with Yahweh through Judaism.

Of course, we are still subject (according to Paul) to the laws of the land. It's a good bet that the country you're living in prohibits polygamy. If that's the case, then forget it, no matter what God allows us to do in our most foolish moments.

kp
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#4 Posted : Thursday, July 5, 2007 9:28:28 AM(UTC)
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Dear KP, congratulations on completing another invaluable tome. You address a challenging question in a very readable and understandable manner that has allowed me to gain much from your and Yahuweh's words. I only realized that Chapter 16 completing the mitzphot (and presumably TOM) were complete this morning.

I can be a little slow as I usually view YY in a reduced screen so only realized this forum existed two days ago when I noticed the logo in expanded screen.
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Offline ELKANAH  
#5 Posted : Thursday, July 5, 2007 9:33:59 AM(UTC)
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We of Patriarchal Nazarene Israel reject the dichotomy of the "church" versus "Israel" replacement teaching. We beleive in the literal teaching given to our people in Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrew 8 that the new covenant will be with the physical decendents of our father Abraham, the House of Israel, and the House of Judah. Jer:31:31: Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:.. Heb:8:8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Churchianity is an invention of the romanist priestcrafters (in our teaching), of which has overcome the Saints of old, via the apostate Roman Kirch temple paganistic system, growing after the death of Paul (one of our Forefathers - Acts:24:5), and continuing on until the council of Nicea. The house of Israel had been taken captive by the paganism of Roman and Greek Hellenistic thought throughout the centuries and continues to this day to be the Jerususalem BELOW, along with her twin sister, the House of Judah i.e., the Jews, who are also the Jerusalem BELOW, in that they are keeping the syncretism first practiced by the golden calves at the foot of Mount Sinai the first time our Father Moshe went up. Today, both houses are in blindness. Churchbianity with the House of Israel hidden within, is blind to the Torah, the Truth and foundation of our ancient faith, and Judaism is blinded to the King of KINGS, our Yahshua Ha Machiach. They will in due time rejoin removing their paganism from their eyes Ezekiel 37.

Plural Marriage is part of our heritage, as a method of providing for single women who are needing husbands to raise up righteous seed. It is something that must be considered beyond emotive considerations to the "bigger Picture" of the survival of our people Israel. At this time, Esau and Ishmael, are numbering beyond both the blind houses because of the cooperation of the Roman Priestcrafting religious establishments who have the House of Judah as well within their power and grasp. All of this is because the Roman Priestcraft system is joined in concorde with Jacobs old adversary Esau. Perhaps the writer is unaware that his pithy commentary on Genesis plays into their hands, or his misapplied statements atributed to Paul, give them the extra ammunition to overcome Jacob. Perhaps he himself needs to overcome his cultural aversion and grow up in YHWH to see His purposes for marriage, even plural marriage within the torah without recrimination or rebuff as he removed his Hellenistic Eye glases and sees the Torah for what is really reperesents - CHAYIM - LIFE.

As for the laws of the land, we are subject to them, that is true. But when certain laws invade the functioning of the Torah, such as the L.evirate marriage, it becomes clear, that we are to answer those authorities in the same vein as our forefathers , the Nazarene Israel Kahal - Acts:5:29: Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey YHWH rather than men.

After all, Marriage is not in Ceasars control, it is in YHWHS. And ever will be - Mk:10:9: What therefore YHWH hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Elkanah Rosen
www.pkas.org
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Offline Jeannie  
#6 Posted : Thursday, July 5, 2007 11:45:08 AM(UTC)
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Just a thought...Yahushua is only going to have one bride made of one body.
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#7 Posted : Thursday, July 5, 2007 7:09:03 PM(UTC)
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Elkanah, you can't brush off the existence of a called-out assembly of believers who are composed primarily of goyim (that is, not physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) merely by referring to scriptures that are to and about Israel. They are two different things (though for the moment, believing Jews and gentiles are together the body of the Messiah. Why can't you understand that both can and do exist side by side---without the necessity of one replacing the other? In Future History, I made myself odious by my constant ranting against the very thing you're accusing me of proposing: "replacement teaching." I'm teaching no such thing. Biological Israel, a restored and redeemed remnant, has a huge role to play in the coming Millennial kingdom of Yahshua the Messiah. But so does the Ekklesia---though in a very different way. Their roles are poles apart, apples and oranges. In fact, ascendent Israel during the Millennium will consist entirely of mortal men and women, while the Ekklesia will be practically a different "species," immortals who have received their resurrection bodies, as described in I Corinthians 15.

I'm not "defending" the visible Church when I say this. It is composed of both "wheat" and "tares" in this present age---and precious little wheat, it seems sometimes. But Judaism is even in worse shape. It (as I pointed out above) is disqualified from re-marrying Yahweh in its present state of disbelief and idolatry: it must become a new creation in Yahshua before it can become His wife.

Swalchy, my take on the Galatians 3 passage is covered in the preamble to chapter 11 of The Owner's Manual. At the risk of wearing out the reader, allow me to offer a lengthy quote from the beginning of the chapter---still germane to the discussion in progress:

Quote:
In this chapter, as in the last, we are going to see quite a few things required by Yahweh in the Torah that are impossible to do at the present time. They require a Sanctuary, a priesthood, and a functioning Levitical order, none of which exist today. And once again, we are forced to consider the ramifications of what this all means. There are several “possibilities.” (1) God is a cruel sadist who enjoys dangling the hope of our salvation just out of reach, so we can see it but not attain it. (2) He expects us to do the best we can with an absurd situation, like playing soccer without a ball or practicing archery without arrows. If this is the case, we’re deluding ourselves, for there’s no way to know if we’ve “scored,” or even how close we’re getting to the goal. Or (3—the only real possibility) the Torah was never intended to save anybody; there’s some other reason for it, some other purpose, some other function.

It is axiomatic that, since it was handed down by Yahweh Himself, the Torah’s real purpose has not become obsolete (as some Christians would have you believe). It is still worthy of our attention, even if we can’t literally do some of it anymore. For that matter, some of us were never told to do it. Time after time in the Pentateuch, we read the words, “Now Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, ‘Speak to the children of Israel….” There are millions of followers of Yahweh in the world today who are not biological descendents of Israel. As far as I know, I’m one of them. The Torah, the “instructions,” were given to Israel to perform—but not to the rest of us. Did God forget about us? No. We goyim were still part of the equation. We were to watch, learn, and benefit from Israel’s performance of the Torah. If the Law had been intended to be in itself the means to achieve salvation from our sins, then not only were the Jews in big trouble the minute they failed to keep it to perfection—and damned forever when they lost the temple—but worse, the rest of us never had a chance.

But that was never the purpose of the Law. Paul explained it to a group of gentile believers in the province of Galatia: “Until faith in Christ was shown to us as the way of becoming right with God, we were guarded by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until we could put our faith in the coming Savior….” The Greek word for “guarded” (phroueo) works both ways: it can either mean “protected by a military guard to prevent hostile invasion,” or “to keep the inhabitants of a besieged city from flight.” This duality is the essence of holiness: keeping that which is outside—profane, corrupt, and evil—separated from that which is inside—pure, undefiled, and good, either by preventing the bad from entering, or by keeping the good from wandering off and getting lost. The Law did that for Israel (or at least it would have if they’d followed it) until the real means of salvation—Yahshua the Messiah—could fulfill His mission.
“Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian and teacher to lead us until Christ came. So now, through faith in Christ, we are made right with God. But now that faith in Christ has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.” That’s right. The Law is no longer needed as our guardian. But it shouldn’t be a total stranger, either. It is now our friend, companion, and counselor. “So you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have been made like him.” That is to say, we, like Him, now have the Spirit of God residing within us—we are immersed in Her. “There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians—you are one in Christ Jesus. And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and now all the promises God gave to him belong to you.” (Galatians 3:23-29 NLT) Don’t take the ball and run with it here: Paul is speaking rhetorically. Of course there are still men and women, slaves and free men—and Jews and gentiles. But as far as the Torah is concerned (which is still the subject), Yahshua’s fulfillment of its prophetic requirements has made its role as guardian more or less obsolete. There’s not much point in rehearsing your lines after the play has closed.

I’m afraid the New Living Translation has rather overstepped its mandate here when it says, “You are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and now all the promises God gave to him belong to you.” The New King James, not so influenced by the myth of replacement theology, merely says, “If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” In the original Greek, there isn’t even a hint of Israel being replaced by the gentile church. In fact, the most oft-repeated prophecy in the Old Covenant scriptures is that of biological Israel’s eventual repentance and restoration. Paul is not denying that at all. He’s just saying that the promise (singular) that blessed Abraham and his heirs also includes the gentile Ekklesia, for we too are his heirs. We would do well to review that particular pledge: “I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Genesis 12:2-3) That’s the promise the gentile believers share with Israel.


kp
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#8 Posted : Thursday, July 5, 2007 10:55:52 PM(UTC)
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Excellent.

I had actually missed that from your website.
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Offline FF  
#9 Posted : Friday, July 6, 2007 1:31:40 AM(UTC)
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KP,

My wife and I have been helping marriages for 20 plus years, interventions, rescues and mentoring. I may not know all the things you know about the Torah. But I know the Torah will not save anyone, it did not in its day and it will not today, it is only Yahushua, no other name. As I see it the Torah is only the first part of the covenant not the whole. With out the Renewed Covenant you have little of nothing but the law that kills. OUCH!!

Over 50 percent of all marriages fail for one reason and one reason only SELFISHNESS.

Now this I do know. One good woman can kill any exceedingly great man sexually and Yahweh created her on purpose to help her man. She is made in Yahweh's image just as much as any man. Man has been LORDING it over women ever since the garden experience went bad and man did not have the balls to admit he was wrong and he blamed Yahweh for giving him THAT WOMAN and he blamed the woman.

Once sin entered in, by mankind’s decision, man has been blaming God and Women for all their troubles and trying to plug into as many women as he thinks he can hoping it will make him feel better and look better. Women have bought the lie that being deceived is an excuse for bad behavior and it was not their choice. Both have to grow up and get a life. Now we want to blame Yahweh again because he wrote the Torah and He created the Adversary and He let mankind make total fools of themselves. But I do not think Yahweh made it that way in the beginning and I do not think Yahweh thinks it should be that way in the end.

Choice is what Yahweh has given each of us.

I know, I know animal’s got to do it. Why can’t we? Just because Yahweh did not condemn multiple marriages in my eyes does not make it the Law. Even civil government knows a single family is what is right.

I have a big widows list to take care of but I do not have to marry them to care for them. If they are single moms or single dads I do not have to marry them, but still care for them.

Now I know many children who have sperm donors but few who have fathers. Men need to stand up, not bow to animal instincts and take up the responsibility of raising healthy, whole, well balanced and good citizens that will follow after their example and teach goodness and kindness and uprightness to the generations to come and not just fulfill their lustful desires.

Yes I know I am not basing all I am saying on scripture, just on good common sense and what is really good for our children to hear and see.

Marriage troubles in a two partner marriage are bad enough let alone mixing other wife’s and children. Divorce in a two partner marriage is very bad I can only imagine a Polygamist Divorce.

FF



FF
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Offline kp  
#10 Posted : Friday, July 6, 2007 3:51:35 AM(UTC)
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Folks, we will never understand what Yahweh intended marriage and family relationships to be until we come to grips with the fact that He designed them to teach us about Himself. The key is in the "Shema"--“Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our God, Yahweh is one! You shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.” (Deuteronomy 6:4-5) . The word for “one” here is the Hebrew ’echad, meaning “united, alike, alone, altogether, first, one, only, or together.” (Strongs) This word makes it clear that God is not restricted to a single form or manifestation: He is a “unity,” not a “singularity.” When our hymns errantly state that God is "three persons," we miss the point: "He" is "One family," not three individual divine entities. Father Yahweh is one with Mother Spirit (Ruach Qodesh---Holy Spirit---is a feminine form linguistically), and the "Son," Yahweh's human manifestation, Yahshua, is one with the Father and Spirit. So when we see our marriages failing because of selfishness, as FF points out, we're witnessing something that was never built into the marriage institution because it's not part of God's nature: internal division. Can you imagine Yahweh and the Spirit having divergent agendas? Of course not: they're One. Can you imagine Yahshua telling His Father, "Hey, I think I've got a better idea. You're entitled to Your opinion, but I've got my rights..."? Naaaah.

It was an epiphany to me when I realized that our very biology is designed to teach us about the nature of our Creator. We are creative and fruitful because Yahweh is. Polygamy was allowed in Israel (even commanded in one unusual set of circumstances) because Yahweh would betroth Himself to both Israel and the Ekklesia in turn. But our biology tells the tale: families can only come about through the union of one man and one woman. That's God's pattern. Color outside the lines at your own peril.

kp
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Offline ELKANAH  
#11 Posted : Friday, July 6, 2007 4:38:12 PM(UTC)
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ALL KOL PATRIARCHAL ISRAEL RESPONDS -

It is eisogesis to take your culturally conditioned assumptions and imput them into the Scriptures. Rather, it is better to look at the scriptures as they are and take those lessons you can from from. John Milton (1608-1674) the great thinker of the Elizabethen period once said "the best doctrine is based on the practice of the Saints." Hence we conclude with him and others that our Forefathers who were practicing the Torah in whatever form were practicing a life that had great reward, including but not limited to the physical multiplicity promises made to our forefathers executed through plural marriage, and continued in the House of Israel, hidden within general Roman Papal churchianity. We do not beleive Paul was separating another people out from the commonwealth of Israel in GalutYah/Galatians (Galut - Hebrew word for the DIASPORA OF THE 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL) but rather the Priestcrafters like St Ignatians and others after him "monked" with Paul's latters and removed the Semitic and Israelite identity components that were originally in the Hebrew and Aramaic letters of Paul. We ourselves are decendents of the true Nazarene Kahal that Paul was a RINGLEADER of as saith even his Adversaried during his time on the earth - Acts:24:5: For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
One 4rth century Roman Papal "father" gave a broad decription of our people back then and said of them -

"But these sectarians... did not call themselves Christians-but "Nazarenes," ... However they are simply complete Jews. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do... They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion-- except for their belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that G-d is one, and that his son is Y'shua the Messiah. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the Prophets, and the... Writings... are read in Hebrew, as they surely are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered by the Law -- circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest-- they are not in accord with Christians...they are nothing but Jews...They have the Good News according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written." (Epiphanius; Panarion 29)

You quoted a great Luminary of the House of Judah, Maimonides who it is known tp Permit polygamy - "Maimonides was inclined to permit polygamy, as practiced by the Moslems." - A History of the Jews in Christian Spain. Volume: 1. Contributors: Yitzhak Baer - author. Publisher: Jewish Publication Society. Place of Publication: Philadelphia. Publication Year: 1992. Page Number: 435.

In fact, I am not the only one who thinks that the return to Patriarchal Marriage will be another step towards the great "Gulah," as another great Luminary from the House of Judah thought so as well - "If I would be successful, in accomplishing two things I would be idle from Torah and T'fillah (Prayer) and go from city to city [to get them accepted]. One is to eliminate the prohibition of Rabbeinu Gershom against taking two wives for with this the G'ulah (final redemption) will become closer, and the second that they should have bircas Cohanim every day." - "The Wilna Gaon" (the genius of Vilna), is an affectionate name for Rabbi Eliyahu (Elijah) ben Solomon of Vilna, Lithuania, who lived from 1720 to 1797.

All of the emotive thought processes rooted in Hellenistic philosophy are foreign to our people because our way of life is grounded in Agro-Biological facts-of-life-living outside of the wicked "civiliazations" of similitude to Sodom and Ghamorah. Our father Abraham, with his many concubines, and principle wife Sarah lived a lifestyle that was foreign to most people who completely misunderstand the pressures of living in the open land as tribal people. It is unfortunate that such bourgeoisie people are limited in their thinking to allow widows and and single moms and other husbandless pine away without a spiritual and physical HEAD and without any hope for fulfilling again the mandate to be fruitful and multiply. And why would such an individual bother to take care of such widows unless they are very old, and have had one husband? For even our Nazarene Forefather Paul the Emmissary said that we should not give other widows who were not old and chaste support, but IF they were younger, they were to MARRY, and raise children unto YHWH. This is exactly what our people would do, without the poltical and socially """progressive" attitudes that nominal churchmen inbibe even if it meant that some of them would have to share a husband according to Torah!

Elkanah Rosen
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Offline kp  
#12 Posted : Saturday, July 7, 2007 3:32:33 PM(UTC)
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Location: Palmyra, VA
Gimme a break, Elkanah. You've proven your ability to dig up pithy quotes from guys long dead, but you really ought to restrict yourself to quoting what's true. Milton's heart was in the right place, but when he suggested we get our doctrine from men instead of Scripture, he was WRONG. If you'd read The Owner's Manual, you'd know I don't remotely share your obsequeous reverence for Maimonides. He was wrong about 80% of the time, mostly because he had the same agenda you do---the elevation of the doctrines of man over the teaching of Yahweh. (By the way, the Rambam was born in Moorish Cordoba and achieved his greatest status while residing in Egypt. That's why he deferred to Islamic thought on the matter of polygamy. Now, if he'd set up shop in Jerusalem, I might be inclined to cut him some slack.) And when you assert that "our Forefathers...were practicing the Torah," you're wrong. Nobody has ever practiced the Torah, most especially "Patriarchal Israel." Why do you think Yahweh threw them (you) out of the Land? Israel has been practicing the same works-based abomination for the last three thousand years. Read Deuteronomy 28: if you guys were in the center of God's will, you'd have been masters of the universe by now.

The Epiphanius quote, however, is right on the money, though your usage of it betrays an abysmal lack of comprehension concerning the difference between Yahweh's plan and purpose for Israel and His intentions for the nations. These Nazarenes (complete Jews) were doing what they were supposed to be doing: keeping the precepts of the Torah to the best of their ability. Why? Because Israel was supposed to be the bearer of the signs---signs which signified the coming of the Messiah. Salvation isn't for the Jews (not exclusively). It's OF the Jews.

And the gentile faithful? As reported in Acts, they were not required to bear the vast majority of the Torah's signs (only the precepts that would keep them healthy and out of trouble spiritually). They, rather, were the grateful recipients of the Grace of God through Yahshua's sacrifice. They were to comprehend the Torah's signs and respond in thankfulness. You, however, comprehend nothing.

You've got a thousand ways to justify your desire for polygamy. If it were legal, I'd suggest that you go ahead and act out your fantasy, since Yahweh (at least within theocratic Israel) clearly permitted it. But you'd be required to keep the whole law if you did so out of your misguided view of the Torah's purpose. Are you prepared to do that? Think carefully before you answer.

kp
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Offline ELKANAH  
#13 Posted : Saturday, July 7, 2007 7:11:55 PM(UTC)
ELKANAH
Joined: 6/30/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: usa
If such is the case that gentiles were only to keep certain precepts and not learn the Torah, how is it that the book of ACTS suggests exactly the opposite thing when the Gentiles are given their so called "limited" precepts and it is said of them -
Acts:15:21: For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

What is the point of saying they should go to the synagogues and study what Moses is telling folks if your arguments holds that for gentiles all that is done away? No, there are no dual Torahs. Only 1 Torah, 1 faith! - Lev:24:22: Ye shall have one TORAH, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am YHWH your ELOHIM.

And No, there is no Gentile vs Jew dichotomy. There is only the House of Judah and the House of Israel that the scriptures testify the new covenant is for. Anyone not having a physical connection to Abraham are GRAFTED in and NATURALIZED into the House of Israel. They CEASE to be a pagan, AND BECOME once again, part of the commonwealth of ISRAEL that both houses are part of. Did not our Messiah say himself "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel?' - Mt:15:24

That mandate continues on to this day!

Elkanah Rosen

p.s., your obvious scorn and disrespect of the Great Ram Bam is unprofessional and ethnocentric. It is YOU who need explaination of your monogamy-only when 80 percent of the world practices some form of POLYGAMY!

Polygynous societies are about four times more numerous than monogamous ones. In 1994,Theodore C. Bergstrom noted in his paper On the Economics of Polygyny (U. Mich. Center for Research on Economics)
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Offline Sator  
#14 Posted : Sunday, July 8, 2007 9:37:16 AM(UTC)
Sator
Joined: 6/29/2007(UTC)
Posts: 37
Location: orange county, CA
I respond only to your first paragraph

Act 15:19-21
dio egw krinw mh parenoclein toiv apo twn eynwn epistrefousin epi ton yeon
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
alla episteilai autoiv tou apecesyai apo twn alisghmatwn twn eidwlwn kai thv porneiav kai tou pniktou kai tou aimatov
but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood.
mwshv gar ek genewn arcaiwn kata polin touv khrussontav auton ecei en taiv sunagwgaiv kata pan sabbaton anaginwskomenov
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


Hi Paul,
I heard your message and believed, I have accepted the gift of Yahweh and have accepted Yahushua as my savior and know that I am saved by grace through faith and not by works of the law. As I understand it my salvation is a gift from Yahweh and something I can't work for by obeying the law.
"I thought I was to follow this commandant: "A new commandment I give unto you--that ye love one another as I have loved you." (John 15:12.)
Did you not say "Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. Romans 7:4-6. Am I not released from the Law?
Did you not also say to us "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:24-26).
and lastly you have told us "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:4).

I was in the Synagogue the other day and the priest was reciting all the laws of Moses. What am I to do? Aren't I saved by faith. Do I now have to keep all these laws that I am hearing? Did I not hear "By the deeds of the Law shall no flesh be justified in His sight."--Romans 3:20. and didn't Yahushua say "None of you keepeth the Law" (John 7:19). James said "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
I know the Law made me see that I was sinful but Yahushua and your words tell me that It can not save me, but when I go to the Synagogue and they want me to follow the law also. I don't know what to do :(

Paul response,

Hi Gentile Follower of Yahushua,
So as not to trouble you (Act 15:19) since we know that you hear Moses preached in the Synagogue every week (Act 15:21). Here is what you should do.
Abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood.(Acts 15:20)
Also reread my letter to the Galatians(5) so that you may gain strength of mind so that when wolves invade, you stand firm.
Paul



I personally don't care about the argument for or against polygamy. My savior Yahushua doesn't say anything about it one way or the other as far as i know so its not worthwhile to debate on something that is not helping to bring souls into the kingdom of Yahweh.
I am a Gentile and I am NOT bound by the Law. I do try to follow the law but NOT for salvation. I follow the law the best I can to please my father and follow the guidance of the spirit since the law is in my heart and mind. There is no way you or I can keep the law period....
I do have to wonder if you have even read the renewed convenient at all. Or maybe you have chosen to ignore Paul's letters in their entirely.
I would like to suggest that when you have time away from your campaign on polygomy that you spend some time and study Galatians.
Better yet, tear down your sight on Polygomy and put up one that leads to repentance and salvation.



Sator
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Offline kp  
#15 Posted : Sunday, July 8, 2007 10:03:57 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA
Elkanah, the whole context of Acts 15 is the limiting of Torah precepts the new gentile believers would be required to observe to four very specific areas: "abstaining from things offered to idols, from [eating] blood, from [eating] things strangled, and from sexual immorality." (verses 28-29) But I never said gentiles were not to "learn the Torah." Quite the opposite: I wrote The Owner's Manual in an effort to help and encourage them do that very thing. They were to learn it and live by it (or more precisely, what it pointed toward), but they were not required to "keep it" in the same way their Jewish brothers were and are.

Where did you get the idea that the gentile believers were grafted into the House of Israel? They were not. The olive tree metaphor in Romans 11 is quite plain: Jewish branches were broken off of the olive tree and gentile branches were grafted in their place. Gentiles therefore were not grafted into Israel, but into the Messiah. Our resulting indwelling of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the broken branches, and everything to do with our place attached to the trunk---Yahshua. That's not to say that some of the gentile branches won't in turn be broken off themselves, and the remnant of Israel grafted back in. But that is a future phenomenon, not a present reality.

By the way, your latest factoid supporting polygamy is a really dumb argument. Are you really suggesting that because 80% of the world practices it, it must be the will of God? Since when was truth a popularity contest? At least 90% of the world flatly rejects Yahweh's love. Should we therefore do the same? I think not.

kp
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Offline kp  
#16 Posted : Sunday, July 8, 2007 10:18:09 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA
Sator, I'm with you. The whole polyamy discussion is a pointless waste of keystrokes. As far as a gentile believer's relationship with the "Law" is concerned, I would urge you to read The Owner's Manual. In addition to covering Maimonides' 613 mitzvot (which can be a real eye-opener), I begin most of the chapters by delving into the nitty gritty of what the New Covenant writers had to say about the post-Calvary---and especially the gentile---relationship with the Torah should be. The Galatians passages, as well as the salient bits in Romans, Hebrews, and elsewhere, are covered in detail. I think if you take the time to read it (it's totally free, by the way---click on the link from the YadaYahweh home page) you'll have a much better handle on Yahweh's mindset on the matter. If not, I'll gladly give you your money back. ;-)

kp
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Offline ELKANAH  
#17 Posted : Sunday, July 8, 2007 4:24:59 PM(UTC)
ELKANAH
Joined: 6/30/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: usa
SATOR SAID -

" do have to wonder if you have even read the renewed convenient at all. Or maybe you have chosen to ignore Paul's letters in their entirely.
I would like to suggest that when you have time away from your campaign on polygomy that you spend some time and study Galatians.
Better yet, tear down your sight on Polygomy and put up one that leads to repentance and salvation."

ELKANAH RESPONDS

You know, its vey revealing and expected to see the issue shifted to obscurity when the proofs are presented. There is also the expectation that the one defending himself against comments made against Patriarchal forefathers, is now being presented as somehow "advancing" the topic and requiring others to advance it.

I wonder if that is what Peter meant of Paul, when he said some will "twist" and "wrest" his words

One can only wonder

Elkanah Rosen
www.pkas.org
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Offline ELKANAH  
#18 Posted : Sunday, July 8, 2007 4:36:01 PM(UTC)
ELKANAH
Joined: 6/30/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: usa
KP says
"Where did you get the idea that the gentile believers were grafted into the House of Israel? They were not. The olive tree metaphor in Romans 11 is quite plain: Jewish branches were broken off of the olive tree and gentile branches were grafted in their place. Gentiles therefore were not grafted into Israel, but into the Messiah. Our resulting indwelling of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the broken branches, and everything to do with our place attached to the trunk---Yahshua. That's not to say that some of the gentile branches won't in turn be broken off themselves, and the remnant of Israel grafted back in. But that is a future phenomenon, not a present reality. "

ELKANAH RESPONDS -

Where did you get the idea that Gentiles were not the lost sheep of the House of israel? Why does Paul use the Greek word Akrobustia - implying that these were those who threw away their circumcision and counted it as nothing? That can only be talking about the House of Israel (Hosea), divorced by YHWH, and remarried again in the death, burial. and ressurection of Yahshua. I am the one taking Jeremiah 31:31 literally, and Hebrews 8 literally that the NEW COVENANT is for the HOUSE OF JUDAH, and the HOUSE OF ISRAEL. What is your problem with that? Are you blind to your identity? Either believe YHWH or do not beleive what he says. Do not make a mockery and suggest YHWH made a mistake to say only those two houses were what the NEW COVENANT was for! Not all Israelites are Jews, but all Jews are Israel!

You are adding to scripture and applying your own theology to an issue that is simple, about the restoration of covenants for the commonwealth of Israel.

Gentiles/Akrobustia are nothing more than those who re-BECOME Israelites when they convert. NOW START ACTING LIKE A REAL ISRAELITE and recover the promises given to our forefathers!

Elkanah Rosen
www.pkas.org
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Offline kp  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, July 11, 2007 5:55:56 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA
Elkanah: Where do you get this stuff? Gentiles are not the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Israelites are these lost sheep. Ironically, the NC use of akrobustia (meaning: uncircumcised) proves my point. If you're right, why did the Jews get upset with Peter when he ate with them? (Acts 11:3) Romans 4:9 flatly states that righteousness is afforded to both Israel (the "circumcised") and the akrobustia (the uncircumcised) by faith. In Galatians 2:7 Paul points out that he was sent to the uncircumcised, while Peter was sent to the circumcised. The scriptures are adamant: there are two distinct groups from which believers are drawn, the house of Israel (all twelve tribes), and the ethnos--the nations, the gentiles, the akrobustia.

You are right, however, about Jeremiah 31:31 applying to Israel and Judah---together comprising all twelve tribes---biological Israel. What you can't seem to grasp is that the goyim, the gentiles, are not part of that discussion. And to whom was the book of Hebrews written? The Hebrews! The New Covenant is Yahweh's Word to redeemed and restored Israel. Period. I look forward with eager anticipation to a day when a believing remnant of biological Israel---all twelve tribes---is restored to greatness in Yahushua's millennial kingdom. But until that happens, belief knows no nationality. That's why Paul tells us to "Put on the new man, who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised [akrobustia], barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all." (Colossians 3:10-11) I would have been honored and delighted to find myself a son of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob physically as I am spiritually. But alas, as far as I can tell, I'm merely a Scot-Irish American gentile barbarian, not a "real Israelite." Thank God that does not preclude me from choosing to have a familial relationship with Yahweh, just like that other gentile, Abraham!

kp
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Offline shohn  
#20 Posted : Monday, August 6, 2007 7:42:55 PM(UTC)
shohn
Joined: 7/24/2007(UTC)
Posts: 160
Location: Texas
To the either very direct or very angry man who wrote above,

Reading this whole topic made me think back to when I was about three. I recall asking my mother on the back porch - "Why are we here?". The answer was so simple, yet, soon enough it was overwritten with the dogmas of Catholic school as I entered grade school! Eventually, I married, and my wife was actually a "non-denominational" Christian and I being a "returning" Catholic. I recall screaming at the top of my lungs at her for insisting that Jesus may have had earthly brothers. Still, something just didn't seem right. In the end, I had to almost get divorced to relearn what I had instictively known when I was three. That's when I started reading up on this stuff, and it didn't take long to figure out what had happened to the church. You gotta get knocked down sometimes to understand the value of standing up, or before you even realize you need to stand up.

In the context of this marriage discussion, I think ol' Solomon's song really sheds some more light on it. Perspective baby.. our Father is so smart for having put all of this together. Imagine, if I had never gotten knocked down, I don't think I would have ever remotely understood some of the more intuitive portions of scripture, particularly Solomon's song. Do you see the part where they change perspective, they start to think differently about each other? Perhaps it is time for you to do the same.

I can think of a movie I watched a long time ago called "Airheads". It is about a rock band that unwittingly takes a radio station hostage to get their songs aired. Soon enough the police show up and ask what their demands are. Our apparently mentally challenged, rock n rollers, come up with a laundry list of demands, one of which included a football helmet filled with cottage cheese. The football helmet filled with cottage cheese had no real purpose other than to "buy time" for the band to get out of the fix they were in. I see a similar concept with many of Yahweh's laws, not suggesting they were just to buy time, but rather, their purpose was unknown and not understood by those peforming them. I can imagine some of the Torah keepers even asking themselves at times, "Now why in the world am I killing this lamb again?", but faithfully carrying out the task without understanding why. This is perhaps not unlike parents who may not allow their children to have toy guns, with the lesson eventually being learned not to point real guns at people.

Another way to think of it may be almost like two brothers, one doing everything he is supposed to, afraid to even say his father's name out loud he says, and the other off getting drunk and making it with wild women and calling his daddy the devil. Dad seems to love both brothers and I imagine one day, they'll actually sit down and have a beer or two with Dad. So many hidden treasures in the scripture. Every time, I find one (Yada and kp have certainly helped in that regard), I seem to share that same feeling displayed by Tom Cruise in the movie Rain Man, it is at the point that he realizes Rain Man = Raymond.

I guess you'd have to see the movies to understand, but I guess my point is with so much seeming focus on the letter of the law, if you heart is in the right place, from reading your post it sounds like you be missing the spirit of the law hidden within. No doubt you have your place, and you may even be one of the chess pieces our Father is moving into place to restore the law for all I know, but I hope you'll at least try to see things from a different perspective.

These guys may not have everything right, and they readily admit to that; however, it is at least worth checking into.

--
Shohn of Texas
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