Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC) Posts: 2,616 Location: Texas Thanks: 5 times Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
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MB wrote:Yada:
I was listening to you discuss time on Shattering Myths. You sounded just like me and what I thought many years ago. I got frustrated with never being able to reconcile the feasts, especially Passover. Nobody could make up their minds as to when this most important event occurs.
I spent quite a bit of time writing articles and showing the various options with charts and scripture in hopes of figuring it out.
Then I discovered that it wasn't the scripture that was the problem, but only my idea of time is what a scriptural day, week, and month are. After I discovered Yahowah's scriptural time and shed off man's time and the Rabbinical day, then all of the scripture finally perfectly matched up!
I've been keeping all of the feasts according to scriptural time ever since and it has never failed me regardless of where I'm at on the planet. I can keep sabbath even when traveling around the world without a watch or a calendar, even jumping time zones.
If you'd like to consider what I've discovered, let me know and I'll provide you the information for your own thoughtful discernment. I'm one of those folks that really doesn't care what others do or that I might be the only guy on the planet doing what I'm doing. Knowing Yahowah takes time and continual study and contemplation. We're all at different routes and at our own pace getting to the His way. What matters is that it is where we really really want to go...
Regards, MB
"Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, and great minds discuss ideas." -Eleanor Roosevelt Yada wrote:MB,
Please, send me a copy of the evidence and reasoning that supports your conclusions. Like you, I only care about what other people say when they claim to speak for God, and not what they do. So when I share Yah's Word, I'd like to be as accurate as possible.
Yada MB wrote:Yada:
I wanted to let you know that I love the show! Of course, like you, I've never been one that liked "authority". I thought I was all alone out here until I accidentally stumbled upon your show. It is great listening to you and your guests on both Shattering Myths and YadaYah Radio. You bring quite a bit of focus to things that I've spent years pondering and attempting to put in proper perspective. Anyway, I read David Pollina's book several years ago, and it works! It took a bit of time to get used to this new concept of time, but I've never had any difficulty keeping the feasts and weekly sabbaths and it all perfectly jives with scripture. I simply look at the sky wherever I'm at and know Yahowah's sabbaths. It doesn't take a computer, calendar, watch, or anything any common shepherd wouldn't have at his disposal tending his flock anywhere in the world. One only needs eyes and a desire to look at the signs Yahowah provides us all. Even on a cloudy night, the next night will confirm what you missed. It is a self correcting system - perfect, just like Yahowah. I'm currently working as a civilian in Afghanistan and keep sabbath here. Also looking forward to Pesach. Anyway, David Pollina has a lawyer's mind (don't hold that against him), so I think you'll enjoy the way he presents his premise/case. If you'd like, I'll send you a copy on me. I'd really like you to check it out. Let me know what you think. I'm not dogmatic, and never have been. It's been a journey of learning. As I learn, I simply adjust to Yahowah's ways. Who knows what He will make known to me tomorrow! Coming out of Mitsrayim is a process. It took the Israelites 40 years to finally arrive at the Promised Land, and I'm only 16 years into my journey.
MOADAI TISHMORU - Discovering the Sabbath by Rav. David Pollina 204 pages paperback (e-book also) ISBN 99932-82-07-5 An explosive new scholarly critique of Saturday's almost universal acceptance as the True Sabbath - and the most extensive examination ever published of the lunar-week origins of the biblical Sabbath day. Explore proofs within Tanakh (the Old Testament) and historical records, that not only the Sabbath day, but the entire week and calendar system it was founded on was changed less than 2,000 years ago. History, linguistics, logic, and even occasional humour, are used to convict Saturday of impersonating the Sabbath. You are the jury - Saturday's fate is in your hands!
Keep up the good work, MB
"Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, and great minds discuss ideas." -Eleanor Roosevelt Yada wrote:MB,
It looks like we are going to be on the same page on everything other than a lunar week. I don't think that a lunar based Shabat is rational with the lunar cycle at 29.5. And I haven't found a shred of evidence for it in the Torah or Prophets. I've been asked to study this countless times and have done so, but never found it to be a satisfactory explanation.
But as we have discussed, so long as we turn to the same Source and are thoughtful about it, family members can agree to disagree on some issues such as timing. Moreover, even if there was a lunar week, it does not resolve any of the issues I raised this morning on SM regarding which day to observe Pesach because it does not resolve the lack of specificity regarding how to assess the beginning of each new month and year - particularly since there is a day and a half unaccounted for each and every month.
I'm no fan of the Julian or Gregorian calendar, and I prefer to think in years Yah, but there is no way to make 29.5 divisible by 7. I don't like man's names for days of the week or months of the year, but it's the only way to communicate timing today, so I translate Years Yah into the pagan time mechanism folks understand - while at the same time degrading the RCC. And while I'm uncomfortable with the Julian calendar and with the change from Julian to Gregorian, neither the year nor the week are divisible into or multiples of 29.5.
Is he suggesting that each new moon begins with the first day of the week? And what is his chodesh standard to determine the beginning of a month? What does he use to determine the first month?
If his particular argument is that the Roman Catholic system is pagan and errant, even misleading and wrongly named, he'd be right, but I do not think that there is any basis for a lunar Shabat. So a wrong is wrong but a wrong does not make an alternative right.
I've asked the smartest people I know in the Covenant to evaluate DP's book, and they came to the same conclusion. He's right about one thing and wrong about another.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you asked my take on the lunar month.
I'm not going to buy his book. I don't need to know that the Gregorian calendar is wrong. But if you think that he has produced a rational argument on behalf of a lunar week that is not only accurately based upon the Torah and Prophets, but that isn't contradicted elsewhere in Yah's testimony and isn't inconsistent with evidence and reason, please share the basis of those arguments with me and I'll examine them carefully and thoughtfully.
Yada MB wrote:Yada:
I'll comment on my experience as far as relying on the evaluation of "others". If you can name "it", I've probably considered "it" and have even practiced and taught "it" to others, until I've "grown out of it" realizing that the facts point me to the new revelation that has been made known. At that time, I am then faced with the fact that I must change since Yahowah won't. Change is one of those things nobody likes. I recognize this fundamental truth and also realize that knowing Yahowah requires constant change as we learn how we are to act within His family, not ours.
As we come out of mitsayim, we all know that there are those things we've relied on, believed, and sometimes are reluctant to give up. When one travels around the world and experiences the various assemblies out there, comprised of groups of folks that have rejected their past religions, we come to realize they are all different. This is to be expected and it has never bothered me. I understand that we are all on our own path out of mitsrayim, and our starting points are at different locations. Some are deep within the bowels of the inner city, for instance. Others are on the outskirts of town. Some assemblies cling to "babbling" like they used to do in their old Pentacostal/Assembly of God churches. Others cling to the notion of a three-headed god, the trinity, or any other number of things that are difficult for them to shake off. I've found that the idea of "time" is no different in this respect. Therefore, when one dismisses certain items or ideas, I've found that it is most often due to this reality of clinging to that which one has become accustomed to and has relied upon in the past. After all, coming out of mitsrayim is a tremendously difficult thing to do, giving up everything one used to think was "real". I think those folks that have a natural inclination to distrust authority have an easier go at the process of learning Yah's ways than the vast majority of folks that rely on others to tell them what to think and do.
With that being said, I want to let you know up front, that the argument I'm going to do my best to present today is only what I think right now. I am fully aware that tomorrow I may be telling you something different as facts and enlightenment direct me closer to Yah. As you are fully aware, coming out of mitsrayim is a "process" not a single event. DP devotes an entire book to a topic I'm going to try to do justice to utilizing a single email; not quite as challenging as asking you to provide me an introduction to God by email. Or worse, please write me an email on how I get to Yada Yah. Keep in mind also, it isn't important to me one way or another what others do. I am perfectly find being the only one on the planet doing what I think is right and what I think Yahowah would want me to do. Most folks have to be a part of a group and have the approval of other humans to "feel" good about what they are doing. I've long ago learned that following Yahowah is a relationship between me and Him and has nothing to do with the approval of other men. I only spend my time on this because I think you, too, don't need the acceptance or approval of others to do what you think is right as well. If I fail to convince you of anything, fine. It could very well be due to my inability to make a sound argument by email. We're all used to this reality when it comes to following Yahowah and sharing information.
The process here is no different than what you recommend to your readers and listeners. Have an open mind and forget everything you know about your preconceived idea of time. One must forget everything they thought they knew about God to really know God, right? Yahowah's concept of time is no different. If I were the adversary knowing full well that the "meeting times" are important for the children of God to know and keep, my first action would be to change how they conceptualize and understand time. If I could change how they track time and keep time, I could easily keep the children of Yahowah from keeping His times. Time is the ultimate deception. Man today doesn't even know what "a day" is or when "a day" begins, not to mention a week, month, or even a year.
Everything to do with Yahowah can be known by contemplating his words and simple observation. Computers, telescopes, calendars, watches; none of these things are needed to know Yahowah and His times. We also have to realize that we are thousands of years removed from His words. You know this just by how much work it takes to translate the ancient Hebrew to learn its true meanings. Also, what used to be obvious thousands of years ago to the patriarchs is difficult for us to understand today. Even the way ancient Hebrew people thought and processed information was different then than how modern western cultures think today. What was simply obvious to them then is now a struggle for us today.
A year: We know that the year begins in the month of Abib by simple observation. Yahowah's calendar is absolute perfection. I've always been impressed with the fact that every Sukkoth, the trees and absolutely beautiful, as if Yahowah Himself commands the leaves to change colors while I'm camping out with Him. Abib is no different. Barley is found almost everywhere in the world. The notion that it must be observed in Israel doesn't make any sense to me and I don't know how folks without modern conveniences and communications would know how to keep His times if they weren't physically in Israel. After all, even the Israelites kept the Feasts and sabbaths without physically being in Israel for 40 years, not to mention all of the other times they spent away from their land. I can observe barley in the US and I can also observe barley in Afghanistan. I've never been anywhere that I couldn't physically observe barley. I'm sure there are some locations where barley doesn't grow, but probably not so far off that one couldn't walk to that location in time to observe the new year. It just has to be important enough for them to go check for themselves. I never rely on someone I don't know in Israel to tell me the ears are green and the barley is right. I look to the sky and see the crescent sliver of light on the moon, look down at the barley, and I know when it is Abib and the beginning of the year. The equinox is something that would require me to track the time of both day and night, or use some other form of electronic gadget to know. The equinox is a nice tool, but never required to know Yahowah's first month of the year. I've been doing this for years and it has never failed me. I start my first month when Yahowah provides me His signs. The seventh month always looks the same; perfect and beautiful. Yahowah has never failed my simple observation. His natural signs are complete perfection. We know that the word month comes from moon. Moons have always dictated months for us. Even our current 30/31 day months were based on the original lunar cycle. Are there the same amount of lunar months in every year? No. Sometimes we simply reset and get an extra lunar month, but Abib never changes. The beginning is always the beginning. This idea of a reset is foreign to the modern way of thinking about time, but even today we "reset" by way of a leap year utilizing the month of February. Resets are completely natural.
A month: I look to the sliver of light and know when the month begins. It is a self correcting system. I can easily "predict" sabbaths and new moons because I've grown accustomed to natural time. I look up and know I'll see the half moon and that the sabbath is tomorrow (more on that later). I also know by experience and continual observation what the moon looks like in its second and third day. If it is raining, I'll know that I wasn't able to see the new moon, but that it was there because I'm looking at the slightly larger sliver and where it is in the sky the next night. This rarely happens, but occasionally new moons won't be visible due to weather. The moon dictates my sabbaths and my weeks. I don't need a man made calendar or elaborate record keeping to know Yahowah's times. If I'm flying across the planet, jumping time zones and days, I know when the sabbath is just by looking to the sky. Consider an international date line. Who is right? Even though two separate individuals are close enough to meet with one another and celebrate the sabbaths and feasts together, one is on one side of the date line and the other is on the other side. Who is keeping sabbath correctly? Yahowah's signs are perfect and don't require such man-made nonsense as date lines. They both look up and know when the sabbath is regardless of where they are on the planet. The entire planet can observe the new moons on the day they are supposed to experience them.
A week: A week is simply a way for us to divide Yahowah's months (or moon cylces) into their weekly sabbaths. Weeks are always seven days long, so we can keep the seventh day sabbath. The moon points to the seventh day sabbath each and every week throughout Yahowah's months. The new moon is followed by a celebration (not a sabbath). New moon days (1st day) are separate from sabbaths. We celebrate and rejoice in the sign of the new moon, but they will always point to the sabbath. A half moon is always followed by the sabbath (8th day). A full moon is always followed by the sabbath (15th day), another half moon again followed by the sabbath (22nd day), the waning crescent followed by a sabbath (29th day). We then look to the sky for Yahowah's New Moon and repeat the process. Man has separated the sabbaths from Yahowah's months (or moon cyles). No more can one tell when the sabbath is unless one is studiously keeping track of days and counting, not able to see any sign associated with the sabbath. What if one were underground and unable to know how many days lapsed? Could he come out from his bunker and know when Yahowah's sabbaths were? Yes, as long as he threw away Satan's Gregorian calendar! Sabbaths are always on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of each and every lunar month. Think about this with regards to the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Passover leads directly into a High Sabbath, then followed by First Fruits. The Passover is always the evening of the 14th (full moon), followed by a High Sabbath on the 15th, followed by First Fruits! Scripture even tells us this. Man's weekly sabbaths have no relationship whatsoever with Yahowah's High sabbaths and feast days. A weekly sabbath could be any day within the week long F.U.B. This seems nonsensical to me. It was actually the controversy of Passover and when to keep it that lead me to find Yahowah's correct time. Man's time never works on Yahowah's feasts. He made sure Satan's time would never work on His calendar; again, absolute perfection! No matter how much effort one spends trying to make a Gregorian calendar and a man-made week fit, it won't and never has. I believe the lunar week was so common place and obvious to the ancients, it wasn't worth spending time explaining it. It was obvious to them. Explaining what a day is and when it begins would be equally as absurd! Like Yahowah's year with the occasional reset month, Yahowah's weeks too have an occasional reset day proceeding the 29th day sabbath. This is only unusual and man doesn't like it because it is a strange concept and unfamiliar to their thinking.
A day: DP does an exhaustive job describing when a day begins by doing the same thing you do regularly. He simply studied the ancient Hebrew and demonstrates that the day begins with sunrise, not the Rabbinal sunset. It makes sense to me, like it does to almost every child, that a "new" day begins when the sun comes up. We start our work at first light. He said, "Let there be light" and the day begins. We work during light, we then rest and enjoy our day's work each and every evening after the sun goes down. It makes so much sense, it almost shouldn't need to be explained. A midnight start of a day is ridiculous! How would one even know when a day ends and starts without a watch? Everything in scripture easily is reconciled with the understanding that day begins with sunrise. Again, DP does an exhaustive analysis of this in his book. We look up, see the sign of the moon, the sun comes up and we take action. We see the full moon for instance, we know when the sun comes up in the morning that it is the sabbath. The sign always proceeds and points to the event, as every "true" sign ought to. I believe the rabbis simply boxed in the sabbath by making starting it hours early. Days can mean two different things in scripture, no different than we have two different definitions of "day" today. A "day" could simply mean the period of light from sunrise to sunset or a "day" could be a complete 24 hours, sunrise to sunrise.
In conclusion, I had folks trying to "sell" me lunar months and lunar based weeks for years before I finally decided to really consider them. I simply dismissed them because nobody I knew were keeping them and everyone I knew and trusted dismissed them. I was determined to keep Passover and the feasts correctly and knew they were important. I understood Yahowah's times were for us to know Him and they pointed to future events that were important for His family to recognize. His signs are natural and never wavering. They don't rely on man's abilty to keep track of days and keep accurate records. His times don't require computers or calendars or even counting days. He could take me on a trip through His universe, drop me back off on this planet and I would know His sabbaths, High sabbaths and feasts simply by looking at what He gave us in the sky above. Even you recognize the importance of time and His meetings. You've even been so brave as to inform others when the last days are in 2033. You even say the evening of... based on the Gregorian calendar and the rabbinal idea of when a day begins. This is important. Consider the information. If I've done any justice to this subject whatsoever, and have in any way conveyed the slightest possibility of truth, you owe it to yourself, and to Yahowah, to at least study and consider DP's work and then see if it works and is in compliance with scripture. If you do, I think you'll find you'll have no problem keeping Yahowah's times as He intended us to keep them. I've been doing this for years, and all I can convey to you, is once I've discovered truth, I can never turn back to past ways and mistakes. It would be no different than someone trying to convince me to return to Christianity and attend church. I just can't do it and neither would I want to. The truth is powerful and it leads to even more truth. This is an awesome journey and there is no turning back. I don't care if I'm the only person on this wobbling rock soaring through the universe with my understanding of Yahowah's time, I can't go back to man-made ideas of time, days, weeks, months, and years. The enlightenment has been incredible and leads to greater understanding and appreciation of His times. Everything is in absolute synchronization with His times. Even the stars and heavenly bodies are completely synched with His times and sabbaths! The sabbath isn't Saturday beginning on Friday evening. The entire universe has a sabbath and it isn't in the slightest way associated with Satan's calendars and days.
I'm sorry this was such long email, but I thought I owed it to you to be as thorough I could and do the best I could with such an important topic as Yahowah's time. Besides, you've done a lot for all of us out here with your exhaustive work, and we are all indebted to you for that. If there is anything I could for you, I'm simply an email away. After all, I consider you a brother in Yahowah's family and there isn't anything I wouldn't do for kin.
May Yah continue to bless you and His entire family, MB
"Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, and great minds discuss ideas." -Eleanor Roosevelt Yada wrote:MB,
I appreciate the effort you put into this but you didn't provide any proof of the lunar week from the Torah and Prophets. Where does Yah tell us to correlate the week and the Shabat to a new moon? And if this is so, why are Yah's presentations of the Shabat in the Torah never associated with the moon - including in the Ten Statements He etched in stone?
My mind is open when the source is Yah's Word. I'll always change my thinking to correspond to what He is telling us.
Barley is the method of reckoning, but the condition of the barley, other than being ' 'abyb, which we think means green and growing, isn't specified. So we have to make assumptions without precision. How much growth is acceptable, an inch, a foot, a small kernel, a developed kernel? And barley does not begin growing at the same time everywhere. That would make Passover start on a different day, a month or two apart depending upon where one lives. I don't see any justification for having it celebrated at different times in different places. And Yah doesn't provide so much as a single clue regarding the state of barley other than 'abyb - whose definition we are extracting from rabbinic and religious influenced tools.
I'm assuming that like most lunar week observers, you wouldn't accept a new moon for the start of the year that is visible a day before you have seen barley and made your personal determination that it is at a state that meets the standard you have set. That could create a very late year relative to other years, actually changing the time of the year Passover is celebrated. And many of us live a long way away from a barley farm. Are we to drive or walk a few hours every day during the time we are trying to make our assessment of it?
Long before 1400 BCE mankind knew how to predict the solar year and they used predictable lunar phases in conjunction with the solar year based upon observations, not telescopes. It is why I suspect that Yah designates the sun and the moon as the signs we should use to determine the Mow'ed in Bare'syth, not just the moon, and not the moon and barley. So I'm doing what Yahowah instructed by using the sun and the moon as signs to set the date of the Mow'ed Miqra'ey. 'Abyb then describes the first month of the year determined by the sun and moon.
There is no standard to judge the first day of the month. Seeing a sliver isn't precise. Yah does not supply any specificity or any standard as to chodesh. It doesn't take into account the height of the horizon which is very significant on new moons or the sky condition. What about someone who lives in a rainy clime where the dusk sky is seldom visible, or on the coast where low clouds and haze on the horizon typically obscures the setting new moon? If it takes a week to see it because of the sky condition, does that set the new month for people living there? What about those of us with failing eyesight? Are we forced to start each month a few days later because we can't distinguish a tiny sliver when others can? And how much of a sliver is acceptable?
Yah never associates His Shabat with the moon. He never associates the week with the moon. His most important presentations of the Shabat in the Torah do not include any references to the moon. And while there are a few references to celebrating a new moon, these statements are never linked to weeks or to the Shabat. I do not see where Yah has made this connection.
I'm not asking you to turn the man's book into an email, because the man's justifications don't matter, only to cite Yah's instructions that under gird your conclusions and to explain why He does not associate the moon with His Shabat when He is discussing it and the days preceding it in His Torah. I want to see what I haven't seen before, which is some specificity linking the moon to the Shabat and to the week in the Torah and Prophets and a justification to ignore the introduction to the Mow'ed timing in Bare'syth and to the presentation of the Shabat in Bare'syth, Shemoth, and Dabarym.
Again, MB, I have nothing against a lunar week other than I haven't seen any justification for it in Yah's Word. If it is there, and if it is consistent with all other references to the Mow'ed and Shabat, then count me in. But, if Yah doesn't provide such specificity, then let's just accept the fact that there isn't any specificity and come to appreciate why that is so. Then thoughtful people can conclude different interpretations and neither be definitively right or wrong.
Stay safe in Afghanistan. It takes courage to live there today.
Yada |