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Offline James  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, February 3, 2015 7:02:14 PM(UTC)
James
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Chuck asked me to creat this topic, thinking that others might be interested in the discussion and the idea.

Since this has come up on BTR a few times now I'll start this off by sharing the email exchange that I had with Yada on the topic and then let people go from there.

James wrote:
Yada,

I have a question about Pesach. I know timing of the miqra is not your favorite subject, but timing is a small part of the question.

According to Shemowth 12:6 the lamb was to be slaughtered on the 14th between the eves/erebs. The question is what do you think between the eves is, and more importantly why that specific time as opposed to just saying on the 14th.

From what I have gathered there are four possibilities for between the eves.
1) 1)Between the time sun sets and the time the sun rises, ie the start of the day.

2) 2)Between the time the sun rises and the time the sun sets, ie the middle of the day or the portion of the say with light in the sky.

3) 3)Between the time the sun starts to set and the time it completely sets, noon until sundown.

4) 4)Between the time the sun starts to rise and the time it is starts to set, sun up until noon.

It seems no matter which understanding is applied however that the Greek text are contradictory. If the meal that Yahowsha ate with the disciples was the Pesach then his sacrifice was at the wrong time of the day. The Greek text indicates that what he ate with them was the Pesach which either means:
A. A)That the Jews of the day were keeping and wrong, and Yahowha didn’t correct them,

B. B)Yahowsha was not sacrificed at the appropriate time,

C. C)The Greek text is errant,

D. D)Or I am misunderstanding what is written.

D is a distinct possibility, B is impossible and A is highly unlikely. I am inclined to C, but I am open to D if someone can show me where I am wrong.

If we are to assume that the Greek text accurately records the time of Yahowsha’s sacrifice then number one above is out as a possibility for the meaning of between the eves. If my understanding of the Greek text is correct that places the timing of Yahowsha’s sacrifice sometime in the afternoon of the 14th day eliminating option four. So that leaves us with option two or three.

Both two and three are in accord with the timing in the Towrah. We are told in Shemowth 12 that Yahowah smote the firstborn at midnight, and that Pharaoh released them upon waking to discover the dead. The Israelites left right away, not even allowing the dough to leaven. We are told in Ba’midbar 33:3 that they departed on the 15th day of the month. So if the lamb were slain the afternoon of the 14th Yahowah would have come at midnight on the 15th and the Israelites would have left that morning.

Based on the timing of Shemowth and Ba’midbar as well as Yahowsha having to fulfill the miqra at the right time to be the perfect lamb, we can say that the “last supper” was not the Pesach. Furthermore Jews the world over today celebrate their Seder the wrong night, and indeed I have been keeping it wrong.

So with option two and three being the only ones in accord with both the Towrah timing and the time of Yahowsha’s sacrifice, the question becomes why the specific timing. Symbolism is not my strong suite so I am open to being wrong here, or partially accurate while missing a ton, but here are my thoughts.
The two have in common that the sacrifice would occur during day light thus open for all to see. All the symbolism of light in Scripture would apply, including the greater luminary becoming visible, etc.

In addition if the lamb were sacrificed during the day or afternoon period that means the lamb would most likely be consumed at supper time which means the meal would begin sometime near the setting of the sun and continue into the darkness thus the Pesach meal would bleed right into Matsah. This design would be perfect in that it would be nearly impossible to benefit from Pesach without also benefiting from Matsah.

Those are the only two things that come to my mind, but again I’m not the best with symbolism. Does this timing make sense to you? If not let me know what I am missing. Can you see any other symbolism, or any other reasons Yah would have specified that timing?

Thanks,
James


Yada wrote:
JB,

We have rendered byn differently as well as 'ereb. I prefer to translate byn along the lines of "understanding" based upon "making the connections between things" than simply "between." Also, while we do not have any part of Shemowth 12 extant from the DSS, in the MT 'ereb is in the dual form, not plural, so it probably isn't "between the eves." The dual form only indicates that more than one thing may be associated. Hand, for example, is in the dual form and can thus mean one or both, but is usually translated singular. Zarow'ah is another dual form without a plural.

“And he shall be for you, existing on your behalf (wa hayah la), to be kept, cared for, and observed (la mishmereth – to be watched over as your responsibly) until (‘ad) the fourteenth (‘asar ‘arba’) day (yowm) of this (la zeh) month (ha chodesh – time of renewal).

And (wa) the entire (kol) community (qahal – assembly) of witnesses (‘edah – who provide testimony on behalf) of the Children (ben – sons) of Yisra’el (yisra’el – individuals who engage and endure with God) shall take his life (shahat ‘eth – shall slaughter him) to encourage understanding around (byn / bayn – to promote understanding near or in the vicinity of) sundown (‘ereb – sunset, twilight, dusk, or early evening).” (Shemowth / Names / Exodus 12:6)


These things considered, some of your concerns no longer exist.

As for Yahowsha', I've concluded that the ambiguity over Pesach was conceived to allow Him to eat the Passover meal at the designated time and still serve as the Passover Lamb before the conclusion of Pesach. It would be impossible for Him to serve as the lamb at the meal He ate with His disciples. I suspect that the day beginning and ending at sundown was established for this very reason.

So I don't see any of this as a timing problem. I think He ate the meal at the right time, that He fulfilled the Dany'el prophecy precisely, and that He served as the Pesach Lamb on Passover.

Yada


James wrote:
Yada,

I really like the bayn/byn connection I had not considered it and Yah is all about promoting understanding. That said I have to disagree somewhat. ‘ereb as a masculine noun would have the standard ‘ym, yod mem, ending to pluralize it which is what we see here. The difference between the dual form and the plural form is an accent mark over the last letter, a Masoretic addition that would not have been used in the original. So ‘erebiym would be the plural form of ‘ereb, and there would be no dual form in the original. So it would still be evenings.

Byn ha’erebiym is a phrase used in 11 verses. 5 of them are in relation to Pesach. The others are mostly in relation to two lambs being prepared one in the morning and the other Byn ha‘erebiym.

The exception being Shemowth 16:12 where Yah says that He gave them meat to eat byn ha’erebiym and bread for in the morning.

All of the verses speaking of the two lambs use the same phrasing that the First lamb was to be prepared in the morning and the second Byn ha‘erebiym. So dropping the between aspect of byn for the moment and going with the bayn aspect there is still an element of timing to it, and since the first was in the boqar, morning, and the second was Byn ha‘erebiym we can conclude that Byn ha‘erebiym refers to the evening ending a day and not the one beginning a day.

While the “to encourage understanding around (byn / bayn – to promote understanding near or in the vicinity of) sundown (‘ereb – sunset, twilight, dusk, or early evening).” Rendering could fit in most if not all the uses, it still doesn’t explain the plural use of ‘erebiym furthermore timing is being indicated in all 6 non Pesach verses namely the distinction between something being performed in the morning and something byn ha’erebiym, which inclines me to think that the phrase is meant to convey a specific time of the day, namely the period where the sun starts to set ending the day. Even with the bayn understanding rendering there is still an element of timing to it.

So while I like the encourage understanding aspect and idea, the timing aspect seems to be just as important.

I think the phrase would best be rendered “to encourage understanding between (byn / bayn – to promote understanding between) the evenings (‘erebym – the time between when the sun begins to set and it fully sets ending the day).”

Furthermore Shemowth 12:10 says that none of the lamb was to remain until morning. If the Pesach was eaten the night starting the 14th then none remaining until morning would mean that when the sun rose on the 14th none of the lamb was to remain. If however the lamb was eaten as the 14th ended then none remaining until morning would mean that when the sun rose on the 15th none of the lamb was to remain. The second timing is consistent with Yahowsha’s fulfilment.
This would also sync with 12:18-19 and the evening of the 14th until the evening of the 21st being 7 days that you would eat unleavened bread. You would start as you eat the Pesach as the sun sets near the end of the 14th day and would continue until the sun set ending the 21st day.

The timing also syncs with the Shemowth account of the first Pesach. The Hebrews according to 12:22 ate the Pesach in their houses after painting the door posts with blood and were instructed not to leave until morning. Then upon waking and witnessing the dead the Pharaoh sent the Hebrews out, which we are told in Bamidbar 33 was on the 15th meaning they spent the end of the 14th and start of the 15th eating the Pesach in their homes which would mean that they slaughtered the Pesach at some point during the day of the 14th.

So neither the Shemowth dress rehearsal nor the Yahowsha fulfilment fit with the start of the 14th practice. Also the “last supper” account does not fit as being a Pesach: why was no lamb mentioned? Lamb was at the center of Pesach but Yahowsha never mentions it. Only wine and bread were mentioned and spoken of, wine is not a part of the Pesach in the Towrah. The other instruction concerning food at Pesach is bitter herbs which are also not mentioned. So Yahowsha only speaks of 1 of the 3 things Yah instructed as part of the Pesach meal.

Looking at the oldest Greek manuscripts no references to Passover are extant in them. The closest is that Mat 26:19 is extant in P37, but only two words are actually readable in it and Passover isn’t one of them. So it seems to me it is entirely possible that there was no mention of Pesach in the original text, and the meal Yahowsha ate with the disciples was just a normal meal that He took advantage of to explain what was about to happen.

Yahowah spoke of the lamb being slaughtered at a specific time of the day be it between the evenings or near the evening. I don’t see him doing this without a reason. And while I don’t see Yah rejecting us for not keeping Pesach at a specific time I think it is important to try to understand what the specific time is and why He choose it.


James
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
thanks 2 users thanked James for this useful post.
matt on 2/4/2015(UTC), cgb2 on 3/22/2015(UTC)
Offline cgb2  
#2 Posted : Sunday, March 22, 2015 8:15:11 AM(UTC)
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Happy New Year everyone!

"Passover" isn't a "day"...it's the lamb (Exo 12). I'll do a late night watch on beginning of the 14th day (after sundown 4/3 this year)...then slay the lamb (make kabobs) between the evens (9th hour ~ 3pm 4/4)...then they'll be ready right around sundown going into matzah (also 4/4). Yumm!

Num 33:1 These are the departures of the children of Yisra’ĕl, who went out of the land of Mitsrayim by their divisions under the hand of Mosheh and Aharon.
Num 33:2 And Mosheh wrote down the starting points of their departures at the command of יהוה, and these are their departures according to their starting points:
Num 33: 3 So they departed from Raʽmeses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month, on the morrow of the Passover the children of Yisra’ĕl went out with boldness before the eyes of all the Mitsrites,
Num 33:4 and the Mitsrites were burying all their first-born, whom יהוה had smitten among them. Also on their mighty ones יהוה had executed judgments.

^ I love the metaphorical value of passing over around midnite during UB/matzah

Exo 12:6 And ye shall keepH1961 H4931 it up untilH5704 the fourteenthH702 H6240 dayH3117 of the sameH2088 month:H2320 and the wholeH3605 assemblyH6951 of the congregationH5712 of IsraelH3478 shall killH7819 it inH996 the evening.H6153

H4931
משׁמרת
mishmereth
BDB Definition:
1) guard, charge, function, obligation, service, watch
1a) guard, watch, house of detention or confinement
1b) keeping, preserving
1c) charge, injunction
1d) office, function (ceremonial)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H4929

Mat 26:40 And He came to the taught ones and found them asleep, and said to Kĕpha, “So, were you not able to watch with Me one hour?
Mat 26:43 And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.
Mat 26:45 Then He came to His taught ones and said to them, “Still sleeping and taking rest? See, the hour has come near, and the Son of Aḏam is delivered up into the hands of sinners.

Mat 27:45 And from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land, until the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour יהושע cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Ěli, Ěli, lemah sheḇaqtani?” that is, “My Ěl, My Ěl, why have You forsaken Me?” (Referencing opening stanza to Ps 22)
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matt on 3/22/2015(UTC)
Offline cgb2  
#3 Posted : Sunday, March 22, 2015 10:27:40 AM(UTC)
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There is also useful research and info at this pesach thread:
http://forum.yadayah.com...sts&t=2564#post22921
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matt on 3/22/2015(UTC)
Offline James  
#4 Posted : Sunday, March 22, 2015 1:23:40 PM(UTC)
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My plans this year are about the same as yours Chuck. I'll start my lamb around 3-4 Saturday the 4th and will be eating it as the sunsets starting Matsah. Can't wait.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
thanks 1 user thanked James for this useful post.
cgb2 on 3/23/2015(UTC)
Offline cgb2  
#5 Posted : Monday, March 23, 2015 9:15:22 PM(UTC)
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<ISR1998>
Exo 12:1 And יהוה spoke to Mosheh and to Aharon in the land of Mitsrayim, saying,
Exo 12:2 “This month is the beginning of months for you, it is the first month of the year for you.
Exo 12:3 “Speak to all the congregation of Yisra’ĕl, saying, ‘On the tenth day of this month each one of them is to take for himself a lamb, according to the house of his father, a lamb for a household.
Exo 12:4 ‘And if the household is too small for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next to his house take it according to the number of the beings, according to each man’s need you make your count for the lamb.
Exo 12:5 ‘Let the lamb be a perfect one, a year old male. Take it from the sheep or from the goats.
Exo 12:6 ‘And you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then all the assembly of the congregation of Yisra’ĕl shall kill it between the evenings.
Exo 12:7 ‘And they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses where they eat it.
Exo 12:8 ‘And they shall eat the flesh on that night, roasted in fire – with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Exo 12:9 ‘Do not eat it raw, nor boiled at all with water, but roasted in fire, its head with its legs and its inward parts.
Exo 12:10 ‘And do not leave of it until morning, and what remains of it until morning you are to burn with fire.
Exo 12:11 ‘And this is how you eat it: your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. And you shall eat it in haste. It is the Passover of יהוה.
Exo 12:12 ‘And I shall pass through the land of Mitsrayim on that night, and shall smite all the first-born in the land of Mitsrayim, both man and beast. And on all the mighty ones of Mitsrayim I shall execute judgment. I am יהוה.
Exo 12:13 ‘And the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I shall pass over you, and let the plague not come on you to destroy you when I smite the land of Mitsrayim.
Exo 12:14 ‘And this day shall become to you a remembrance. And you shall observe it as a festival to יהוה throughout your generations – observe it as a festival, an everlasting law.
Exo 12:15 ‘Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. Indeed on the first day you cause leaven to cease from your houses. For whoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that being shall be cut off from Yisra’ĕl.
Exo 12:16 ‘And on the first day is a set-apart gathering, and on the seventh day you have a set-apart gathering. No work at all is done on them, only that which is eaten by every being, that alone is prepared by you.
Exo 12:17 ‘And you shall guard the Festival of Unleavened Bread, for on this same day I brought your divisions out of the land of Mitsrayim. And you shall guard this day throughout your generations, an everlasting law.
Exo 12:18 ‘In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening, you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first day of the month in the evening.
Exo 12:19 ‘For seven days no leaven is to be found in your houses, for if anyone eats what is leavened, that same being shall be cut off from the congregation of Yisra’ĕl, whether sojourner or native of the land.
Exo 12:20 ‘Do not eat that which is leavened – in all your dwellings you are to eat unleavened bread.’ ”
Exo 12:21 And Mosheh called for all the elders of Yisra’ĕl and said to them, “Go out and take lambs for yourselves according to your clans, and slaughter the Passover lamb.
Exo 12:22 “And you shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two doorposts with the blood that is in the basin, and you, none of you shall go out of the door of his house until morning.
Exo 12:23 “And יהוה shall pass on to smite the Mitsrites, and shall see the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, and יהוה shall pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to smite you.
Exo 12:24 “And you shall guard this word as a law for you and your sons, forever.
Exo 12:25 “And it shall be, when you come to the land which יהוה gives you, as He promised, that you shall guard this service.
Exo 12:26 “And it shall be, when your children say to you, ‘What does this service mean to you?’
Exo 12:27 then you shall say, ‘It is the Passover slaughtering of יהוה, who passed over the houses of the children of Yisra’ĕl in Mitsrayim when He smote the Mitsrites and delivered our households.’ ” And the people bowed their heads and did obeisance.
Exo 12:28 And the children of Yisra’ĕl went away and did so – as יהוה had commanded Mosheh and Aharon, so they did.
Exo 12:29 And it came to be at midnight that יהוה smote all the first-born in the land of Mitsrayim, from the first-born of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the first-born of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the first-born of livestock.
Exo 12:30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he and all his servants, and all the Mitsrites. And there was a great cry in Mitsrayim, for there was not a house where there was not a dead one.
Exo 12:31 Then he called for Mosheh and Aharon by night, and said, “Arise, go out from the midst of my people, both you and the children of Yisra’ĕl. And go, serve יהוה as you have said.
Exo 12:32 “Take both your flocks and your herds, as you have said, and go. Then you shall bless me too.”
Exo 12:33 And the Mitsrites urged the people, to hasten to send them away out of the land. For they said, “We are all dying!”
Exo 12:34 And the people took their dough before it was leavened, having their kneading bowls bound up in their garments on their shoulders.
Exo 12:35 And the children of Yisra’ĕl had done according to the word of Mosheh, and they had asked from the Mitsrites objects of silver, and objects of gold, and garments.
Exo 12:36 And יהוה gave the people favour in the eyes of the Mitsrites, so that they gave them what they asked, and they plundered the Mitsrites.
Exo 12:37 And the children of Yisra’ĕl set out from Raʽmeses to Sukkoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides the little ones.
Exo 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up with them too, also flocks and herds, very much livestock.
Exo 12:39 And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they had brought out of Mitsrayim, for it was not leavened, since they were driven out of Mitsrayim, and had not been able to delay, nor had they prepared food for themselves.
Exo 12:40 And the sojourn of the children of Yisra’ĕl who lived in Mitsrayim was four hundred and thirty years.
Exo 12:41 And it came to be at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, on that same day it came to be that all the divisions of יהוה went out from the land of Mitsrayim.
Exo 12:42 It is a night to be observed unto יהוה for bringing them out of the land of Mitsrayim. This night is unto יהוה, to be observed by all the children of Yisra’ĕl throughout their generations.
Exo 12:43 And יהוה said to Mosheh and Aharon, “This is the law of the Passover: No son of a stranger is to eat of it,
Exo 12:44 but any servant a man has bought for silver, when you have circumcised him, then let him eat of it.
Exo 12:45 “A sojourner and a hired servant does not eat of it.
Exo 12:46 “It is eaten in one house, you are not to take any of the flesh outside the house, nor are you to break any bone of it.
Exo 12:47 “All the congregation of Yisra’ĕl are to perform it.
Exo 12:48 “And when a stranger sojourns with you and shall perform the Passover to יהוה, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and perform it, and he shall be as a native of the land. But let no uncircumcised eat of it.
Exo 12:49 “There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”
Exo 12:50 And all the children of Yisra’ĕl did as יהוה commanded Mosheh and Aharon, so they did.
Exo 12:51 And it came to be on that same day that יהוה brought the children of Yisra’ĕl out of the land of Mitsrayim according to their divisions.
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