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Offline Theophilus  
#1 Posted : Monday, April 26, 2010 9:27:31 AM(UTC)
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I was curious what people's thoughts were on the question of whether the any Torah instruction indeed calls for violence today? I recall KP writing in TOM that the penalty phase of the Torah was for ancient Yisrael and the people groups named in the Conquest have been out of bounds for 2,000 plus years. So are there any that remain that still do call for violence or physical punishment in any instance?


Respectfully,

-Theophilus
Offline Theophilus  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:21:05 AM(UTC)
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I went digging in TOM to see if I could find insights on a passage in Deuteronomy chapter 18 that seemed in the plain reading like it may still have violent applications. I'll quote the relevant portion of TOM here:

Quote:
(323) Do not entice an Israelite to idolatry. “If you hear someone in one of your cities, which Yahweh your God gives you to dwell in, saying, ‘Corrupt men have gone out from among you and enticed the inhabitants of their city, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods”’which you have not known—then you shall inquire, search out, and ask diligently. And if it is indeed true and certain that such an abomination was committed among you, you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it, all that is in it and its livestock—with the edge of the sword.”— (Deuteronomy 13:12-15) This passage doesn’t only apply to apostate cities, but to individuals as well, as witnessed in the preceding verses (6-11). Yahweh, in His warnings to theocratic Israel designed to keep the nation pure and set apart for His purpose, was really serious about dealing with idolatry among His people. Yahweh’s Messiah would be delivered to the world through this nation. If they fell into total idolatry (like the Canaanites they were instructed to displace in the Land), the very existence of Israel would have been jeopardized. Without abridging individual choice, Yahweh had to keep His people set apart from the nations.

(324) Destroy idolatry and its appurtenances. “You shall utterly destroy all the places where the nations which you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree. And you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and burn their wooden images with fire; you shall cut down the carved images of their gods and destroy their names from that place. You shall not worship Yahweh your God with such things.” (Deuteronomy 12:2-4) Without instruction, the Israelite conquerors of Canaan might have been tempted to simply use whatever worship facilities they found, change the name of the deity from Ba’al (or Chemosh, Astarte, Molech, Dagon, or any of a dozen others) to Yahweh, and call it a day. But Yahweh (being the real God) had specified a different form of worship for His people—a system of sacrifices, holidays, and “appurtenances” that told the unfolding story of mankind’s salvation in its every detail. Every nuance of the Levitical ritual prescribed in the Torah was prophetic of the coming Messiah.

The sad history of Israel from the Conquest to their final exile can be traced back to their refusal to do what Moses instructed here. Sadder still is the adoption and assimilation of pagan practices into the liturgy of the Church—a process begun in earnest at the time of Constantine. Having seen what had happened to Israel, we should have known better. What part of “You shall not worship Yahweh your God with such things” didn’t they understand? And don’t think you’re immune to the legacy of pagan infiltration just because you’re a “Protestant.” As long as we celebrate Easter and Christmas in place of Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles, we remain under the indictment of this mitzvah.

(325) Do not love the enticer to idolatry. “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from Yahweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.” (Deuteronomy 13:6-11) Maimonides is going to wring the next five mitzvot out of this passage, so I figured I’d better quote the whole thing. The first thing we should notice is that Yahweh did not tell us not to love someone—even an idolater. What He is telling us to do is make the hard choices if we must: to put away the evil influences from among us, even if it means rejecting a member of our own family or turning our back on our best friend. The greater good must be considered. We are not being told not to love the enticer to idolatry—rather, we are being told to do something far more difficult: to slay someone we do love in order to protect the community from falling into idolatry.

The instruction to stone those who would entice us to idolatry was obviously meant to apply only within theocratic Israel. If we tried to keep this law today, we’d have to kill every politician, advertising writer, and rock star in the country, along with half the clergy. The principle, however, still applies to all of us. We are to “kill” the influence of those who would divert our affections from Yahweh to something else—anything else.

(326) Do not give up hating the enticer to idolatry. “If [someone] entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ ...you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him.” (Deuteronomy 13:6-9) This is merely the negative restatement of the previous mitzvah. Again, hatred is not part of Yahweh’s instruction—but the merciless rejection of false teaching and false teachers is. Tolerance is not a godly virtue, as strange as that may seem. God wants us to know His word and unequivocally denounce the teachings that contradict it. The sort of lowest-common-denominator ecumenical spirit that passes for “Christian unity” today makes God want to puke—and those are His words, not mine—see Revelation 3:16.

(327) Do not save the enticer from capital punishment, but stand by at his execution. “...You shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from Yahweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.” (Deuteronomy 13:9-11) No, Maimonides, you pathetic wimp! It says that you—the one who has been enticed to follow strange gods—are to cast the first stone. Don’t “stand by” and let the mob do your “wet work” for you. You do it! Be personally involved in defending the faith.
I should interject here that “enticement away from Yahweh your God” is not remotely the same thing as rejecting the burden of religion that men have laid upon your shoulders in an attempt to subjugate you. First-century Pharisees were guilty of this, but they were pikers compared to the Roman Catholic Church, who killed millions of Christians over the centuries who merely wished to serve God and study His Word—Hussites, Albigensians, Waldensians, Huguenots, and others. Torquemada and his ilk were defending the Roman religious system, not the Word of God.

I should also note (because Maimonides doesn’t) that the reason the enticer was to be executed was not only to “put away the evil from your midst” (Deuteronomy 13:5), but also as a deterrent, “So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.” Political liberals today contend that the death penalty has no deterrent value. Yahweh begs to differ, but it has to be applied even-handedly, consistently, and without prejudice if we want it to serve as a disincentive. Otherwise, it’s just punishment.

(328) A person whom he attempted to entice into idolatry shall not urge pleas for the acquittal of the enticer. “...You shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him.” (Deuteronomy 13:8-9) Remember, the “enticer” in these verses is characterized in a worst-case scenario: one’s brother, child, spouse, or friend—someone near and dear to you. The natural inclination is to hide the crime, to go into a state of denial. Yahweh says, “Be honest with yourself, and be honest with Me. You know what you heard. Deal with it.” If a cancerous tumor is growing, you must cut it out, remove it, throw it away. I know it will be painful, but if you don’t do what’s necessary, the patient will die.

(329) A person whom he attempted to entice shall not refrain from giving evidence of the enticer’s guilt, if he has such evidence. “...You shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him.” (Deuteronomy 13:8-9) We must be very careful to define the circumstances under which one is not to listen to, pity, spare, or conceal the faults of the offender. This passage (quoted fully in Mitzvah #325) deals only with him who entices someone to false worship—in other words, a false or misleading prophet, someone who advocates serving something or someone other than Yahweh. It is not speaking of human retribution for ordinary sins—places where we all fall short of Yahweh’s perfect standard of conduct. In fact, our response to those foibles is precisely the opposite: “[Love] bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.” (I Corinthians 13:7) “Above all things have fervent love for one another, for ‘love will cover a multitude of sins.’” (I Peter 4:8, quoting Proverbs 10:12) The point is, Yahweh knows we’re sinners. Because He loves us, He has provided a means by which our sins can be eliminated, so we can be restored to fellowship. Therefore, the only real evil is preventing people from availing themselves of God’s mercy.


I'm still pondering Ken's commentary and presume that his insights are correct but would like to establish how we know that no physical violence is indeed called for or remains in effect today?

Offline kp  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:26:05 AM(UTC)
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I would add, as a reminder, that Israel was instructed to perform the precepts of the Torah, while the nations were to observe them. That is, we who are gentiles living outside eretz Israel are to pay special attention to the fact that the things Israel was instructed to act out in their keeping of the Torah were indicative of Yahweh's plan and purpose. For example, the sacrifices all pointed to what Yahweh would accomplish on Golgotha; the details of the tabernacle's architecture and appurtenances all indicated facets of Yahweh's plan for our redemption. So when He says, "Kill those who lead you into idolatry," He's telling us what He intends to do---something that's confirmed a hundred times over in Future History.

That being said, if you’re a Ba’al-worshipping Canaanite, Hittite, Amorite, Perizzite, Hivite, Jebusite, or Girgashite living in eretz Israel, watch out. I don't remember seeing a statute of limitations on that whole "wipe out the Canaanites" thing.

kp
Offline James  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:59:20 AM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
That being said, if you’re a Ba’al-worshipping Canaanite, Hittite, Amorite, Perizzite, Hivite, Jebusite, or Girgashite living in eretz Israel, watch out. I don't remember seeing a statute of limitations on that whole "wipe out the Canaanites" thing.

kp

good point Ken.

Too bad the Israelis in Israel today don't follow the Torah, perhaps if they did they would have destroyed the Dome of the Rock when they had the opportunity to.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Theophilus  
#5 Posted : Thursday, April 29, 2010 8:58:50 AM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
I would add, as a reminder, that Israel was instructed to perform the precepts of the Torah, while the nations were to observe them. That is, we who are gentiles living outside eretz Israel are to pay special attention to the fact that the things Israel was instructed to act out in their keeping of the Torah were indicative of Yahweh's plan and purpose. For example, the sacrifices all pointed to what Yahweh would accomplish on Golgotha; the details of the tabernacle's architecture and appurtenances all indicated facets of Yahweh's plan for our redemption. So when He says, "Kill those who lead you into idolatry," He's telling us what He intends to do---something that's confirmed a hundred times over in Future History.

That being said, if you’re a Ba’al-worshipping Canaanite, Hittite, Amorite, Perizzite, Hivite, Jebusite, or Girgashite living in eretz Israel, watch out. I don't remember seeing a statute of limitations on that whole "wipe out the Canaanites" thing.

kp


Hello Ken, and thank you for the reminder. Could you refresh me as to where the distinction between Israeling preforming and the nations / Goyim observing the Torah is found? Your insights have been most helpful to me, but the reference would be of use in expressing how one makes that determiniation is support of and application of the Torah today.

Respectfully,

-Theophilus
Offline Theophilus  
#6 Posted : Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:58:20 AM(UTC)
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James wrote:
good point Ken.

Too bad the Israelis in Israel today don't follow the Torah, perhaps if they did they would have destroyed the Dome of the Rock when they had the opportunity to.


Very true James.

I sometimes think the situation on the ground in Israel explains the logic behind the instructions during the Conquest to drive out the peoples dwelling in the Land of Promise, as terrible in effect as that must have been. Once the owership of the Land is clearly established, it ends the unending struggle witnessed in the land today.

I wouldn't think that Yahweh was calling upon His people to destroy all of the world's idols, just those in the Land of Promise, no? I was more troubled by the notion of this insruction compelling the stoning of people, friends, relatives or immediate family who promote religion and reject Yahuweh.

Respectfully,

-Theophilus
Offline kp  
#7 Posted : Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:32:55 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
Too bad the Israelis in Israel today don't follow the Torah, perhaps if they did they would have destroyed the Dome of the Rock when they had the opportunity to.


It's worth noting that Yahweh didn't include "Philistines" on the Canaanite "hit list." Perhaps it was because He didn't want latter day Israeli to have a handy scriptural justification for genocide against the people who love that name so much---the Palestinians. But Yahweh has other plans for them. Israel needn't feel like they have to do His work for Him.

kp
Offline James  
#8 Posted : Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:57:48 AM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
It's worth noting that Yahweh didn't include "Philistines" on the Canaanite "hit list." Perhaps it was because He didn't want latter day Israeli to have a handy scriptural justification for genocide against the people who love that name so much---the Palestinians. But Yahweh has other plans for them. Israel needn't feel like they have to do His work for Him.

kp

Yeah, but the "Palestinians" are not really Palestinians, like you said they just love the name, because it gives them a political advantage.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Michael Dinofrio  
#9 Posted : Friday, April 30, 2010 8:55:47 AM(UTC)
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Shabbot shalom!

I am new @YY forum. My name is Michael Dinofrio.
My upbringing was as close to the "rules" as can be observed from my "understanding' of the N.I.V. bible.
That being said, My goal is to Expose the BS. in Gratia founded Scripture. My brothers out here truly Love "jesus" and it brings me to an uncontrollable RAGE to know that the ones who have Gone to Sleep in the "Lord"{adonai}, have been DECEIVED!!

We really want to Please him out here. So thank you to you who have found the truth.

Michael
Matzati Et She'Ahava Nafshi
Offline In His Name  
#10 Posted : Friday, April 30, 2010 5:02:24 PM(UTC)
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Michael Dinofrio wrote:
My goal is to Expose the BS.


Hi Michael,

BS that stands for biblical sanctimony, right?

Welcome to the forum
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline James  
#11 Posted : Saturday, May 1, 2010 9:17:19 AM(UTC)
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In His Name wrote:
BS that stands for biblical sanctimony, right?


Thanks for coining a new acronym I like that one.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline cgb2  
#12 Posted : Monday, August 4, 2014 7:43:54 AM(UTC)
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http://christianthinktank.com/qamorite.html excuse the poor translations. But this article is a good analysis of what critics call genocide, was predominantly mass migration with plenty of warning (drive out) and more the extermination of their callous political/religious/millitary establishment to extinguish the "nation" which fostered despicable practices (iniquity full). Long but worthwhile read.
Offline Bubsy  
#13 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2014 6:44:10 PM(UTC)
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Great article! Yahowah basically put those nations on notice that their abominable practices in his set-apart land would be coming to an end one way or another. Those not committed to the culture and government of the nation (which seems to be with what Yahowah equated the nation), who upon learning the news, decided to move away, had the most freedom in choosing a new spot to practice their lifestyle, if they wanted to keep it, or change their lifestyle as well while changing their location. Those who stayed until "time is up" had less choice - surrender to the eviction force and be allowed to survive, or stay and be exterminated to the last with the others who chose to fight to the end. They all had fair warning years in advance. I guess it's reassuring that Yahowah appears to equate a "nation" to its leaders, whether political, cultural, religious, or military, and not necessarily the varied individuals living in it, when referring to utterly destroying and exterminating nations - judgment against only those responsible for creating the problem, and not every individual living in it.
Ha Shem? I'm kind of fond of Ha Shemp, Ha Larry, and Ha Moe myself. And the earlier shorts with Ha Curly.
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