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Offline shohn  
#1 Posted : Monday, August 6, 2007 9:14:21 PM(UTC)
shohn
Joined: 7/24/2007(UTC)
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Location: Texas

Okay, I don't have the exact passage, but I'll try to gloss over it in an effort to trigger someone's memory on this one.

Somewhere in the Old Covenant, I recall reading about God asking some folks - who was willing to go down to earth and deceive one of the kings. It is one of the classic lines quoted by atheists to suggest that God is evil. The argument goes something like this, see God can deceive, therefore he is evil.

I don't recall this being touched on YY or the other commentaries, but I was hoping someone would recognize the passage I'm very poorly paraphrasing and offer some insight.
--
Shohn of Texas
Offline Theophilus  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 3:24:37 AM(UTC)
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Shohn, I do interact with a number of skeptics, seekers and critics who raise numerous objections to Yahuweh as described in the Scriptures but I'm unsure what you're refering to?

The closest I can think to a specific instance of "deception" was Gideon's strategy to use a small number of fighters to terrify Israel's enemies in a night action in the book of Judges. That book had another instance where a woman welcomed an enemy military leader who was routed into her tent, put him at ease and once resting drove a tent peg through his head while he slept.

One passage I encounter that is used to suggest Yahuweh is not all good and loving YY addresses in book IV chapter 6 Yasha' Salvation:

http://yadayahweh.com/Ya...weh_Salvation_Yasha.YHWH

Quote:
While on the subject of Satan pretending to be God, Yahuweh tells us that He created the Adversary in addition to producing the cure: "I form light and create darkness, providing recompense and restoration (shalowm - prosperity, health, contentment, peace, satisfaction, blessings, and completeness) and create evil (ra' " malignancy, wickedness, and the Adversary). Yahuweh does all these things." (Isaiah 45:8) Angels, like men, were created by Yahweh. But one angel, like many men, decided that he was better than his Maker. Pride and self-reliance caused his fall as it will ours.

The existence of good and evil was all part of Yahuweh plan for establishing credible choice. Without a credible choice there would be no real love. God set good and evil in the context of existence and nonexistence to underscore the nature of the life and death choice we must all make. In this verse Yahweh is also warning us not to fall for man's most prevalent folly - relying upon and reveling in the creation rather than the Creator.

At least He did in the original text. The opening verb in the Dead Seas Scrolls is "Shout out," rather than the rabbinical "Drip down," so we'll go with that. In fact, the Masoretes were so heavy-handed with Isaiah 45, to understand Yahuweh's message we are going to have to rely on the Qumran manuscripts. "Shout out heavens, above the clouds, let righteousness, justice, fairness and honesty stream down upon the earth. I respond by reaching out and opening up (patach) salvation (yasha'), bearing the fruit of abundant vindication, justification, and salvation (tsadaqah " truthfulness; being right with God). I, Yahuweh, created these.(Isaiah 45:8) If you are looking for vindication, justice, and truth, if you are searching for justification and salvation, you know where to find these things. They come from the Creator, not from His creation.

The Adversary's problem was identical to mankind's. We get ourselves into trouble when our pride gets in the way and we think we are smarter than God. Politics and religion are comprised of this stuff - especially socialist, secular humanism where man replaces God.


I'm not sure if this puts me into or out of agreement with YY but I look at Yahuweh as less the direct bringer of evil and calamity, but rather the creator of the potential for both and permiting both to be actualized. That is allowing both to be occur and permitting negative consquences for sin, such as the curse on the world or seperation from fellowship with Him.

Let me know if you had a different instance in mind or can better describe it?
Offline kp  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 4:40:38 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
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I think what you're referring to is this passage about Ahab:

Quote:
The king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, having put on their robes, sat each on his throne, at a threshing floor at the entrance of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets prophesied before them. Now Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah had made horns of iron for himself; and he said, “Thus says Yahweh: ‘With these you shall gore the Syrians until they are destroyed.’” And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, “Go up to Ramoth Gilead and prosper, for the Lord will deliver it into the king’s hand.”

Then the messenger who had gone to call Micaiah spoke to him, saying, “Now listen, the words of the prophets with one accord encourage the king. Please, let your word be like the word of one of them, and speak encouragement.” And Micaiah said, “As Yahweh lives, whatever Yahweh says to me, that I will speak.” Then he came to the king; and the king said to him, “Micaiah, shall we go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall we refrain?” And he answered him, “Go and prosper, for Yahweh will deliver it into the hand of the king!” So the king said to him, “How many times shall I make you swear that you tell me nothing but the truth in the name of Yahweh?”

Then he said, “I saw all Israel scattered on the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd. And the Lord said, ‘These have no master. Let each return to his house in peace.’” And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “Did I not tell you he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?” Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of Yahweh: I saw Yahweh sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. And Yahweh said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before Yahweh, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ Yahweh said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And Yahweh said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ Therefore look! Yahweh has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and Yahweh has declared disaster against you.”

Now Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near and struck Micaiah on the cheek, and said, “Which way did the spirit from Yahwh go from me to speak to you?” And Micaiah said, “Indeed, you shall see on that day when you go into an inner chamber to hide!” So the king of Israel said, “Take Micaiah, and return him to Amon the governor of the city and to Joash the king’s son; and say, ‘Thus says the king: “Put this fellow in prison, and feed him with bread of affliction and water of affliction, until I come in peace.”’”

But Micaiah said, “If you ever return in peace, Yahweh has not spoken by me.” And he said, “Take heed, all you people!” (I KIngs 22:1--28)


This is not the only time in Scripture we see Yahweh blinding the eye or hardening the heart of one whose path toward destruction has already been chosen and confirmed by his evil deeds. Other examples: the Pharoah of the Exodus; the "men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness" in Romans 1; the multitudes who will choose to follow the Antichrist during the Tribulation. The choice of whether to honor Yahweh is always ours to make. But once we have made that choice, God reserves the right to close our minds to further enlightenment. Kind of scary, when you think about it.

kp
Offline shohn  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 6:35:05 AM(UTC)
shohn
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Yeah, that's the one. It had been awhile since I read this, but I remember thinking it was "curious". When I initially read this awhile back, I've wondered if this could be one of those cases where the term Lord and Yahweh got swapped somehow.

Either way, this emphasizes the point that if you choose to become swine, He may very well drive you over a cliff so watch out!

As I read the first part of it though, it is almost like he is telling the king exactly what he wants to hear, knowing full well that the king will read into his, for lack of a better term, sarcasm. Then he says, okay, you actually want to listen? Well, Yahweh sent a lying spirit into your prophets, and you're pretty much hosed if you go to battle, as if he knew Ahab was not going to listen anyway.

This may be another reason, why we're to avoid mysticism and the occult as well - pesky lying spirits.

This still begs the question though with the commandment about not bearing false witness, does that exclude lying, being polite to protect someone's feelings, failing to disclose the whole truth when asked an open ended question, etc., or is this just a Western idea? The Susanna story, though not scriptural, seems to underscore that bearing false witness seemed to have more to do with someone being accused of a crime and potentially being errantly sentenced to death, than protecting someone's feelings. I assume there is something similar going here with thou shalt not kill.

I think things like this are some of the more challenging areas for people to get over who haven't opened that door to our Father. It's the oft argument along these lines- "See See God is inherently evil because he says, thou shalt not kill, but then he goes off and wipes out the Caananites, etc." I'll see if I can find my answers in the Torah book you wrote as far as any legal ramifications I'm not quite understanding yet.
--
Shohn of Texas
Offline Devildog  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 7:13:40 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
Kind of scary, when you think about it.



Sure is, but PPL are stupid, and proud. My sister(lost) is living in sin(LOL) with a man around 70, and I was speaking with him the other day. He started on about how silly it is to believe in a "man in the sky", and blah, blah, blah. I asked him the tell me what he felt was the most troubling part of the Bible. He responded with this question: "Who did Cain marry?" Good grief. After I answered his silly query, I began proving that his perception of God is only taught by men and not in scripture. In fact, everything he thought he knew was errant, and that is why God didn't look appealing to him. I told him that if he was willing to invest 2 hours of his life, I would prove to him that the "Bible" is the inspired word of God- and thus there is a God(actually God would be doing the proving). He said: "Not interested". Blinding his eyes or heart will make no difference-he is lost. It's hard for me to garner ANY respect for this type of individual.
Sadly, this is done in the presence of my niece, but so far, she views him as the fool he has come to be. Spending the night over her uncles house is paying off LOL. Children just seem to know that God is there don't they? Only when we corrupt them, do they change.
Offline Devildog  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 7:54:37 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
This still begs the question though with the commandment about not bearing false witness, does that exclude lying, being polite to protect someone's feelings, failing to disclose the whole truth when asked an open ended question, etc., or is this just a Western idea? The Susanna story, though not scriptural, seems to underscore that bearing false witness seemed to have more to do with someone being accused of a crime and potentially being errantly sentenced to death, than protecting someone's feelings. I assume there is something similar going here with thou shalt not kill.


Just a thought. I don't think there's ever a reason to lie- ever. Especially when the topic is regarding Him. Yahushua was asked some pretty tough things at the time and didn't answer the way many wanted Him to, but He never lied either. It doesn't hurt to be brilliant :}
Also, there is a distintion between killing and murdering. Ratsach is used in the 6th commandment and about 46 places elsewhere. Harag is used about 160 times in the Hebrew and is only defined as "murder(s)" in the following places:

Psa 10:8 He{the wrongdoer} sits in the hiding places of the villages; In the secret places he murders the innocent; His eyes are on the lookout for the helpless.

Hos 9:13 “I have seen Ephrayim, like Tsor, planted in a pleasant place. But Ephrayim shall bring out his children to the murderer.”

Jer 4:31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in labour, the distress as of her who brings forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Tsiyon! She bewails herself, she spreads out her hands, saying, “Woe to me, for my being faints because of murderers!”
Offline James  
#7 Posted : Thursday, November 1, 2007 9:54:30 AM(UTC)
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shohn wrote:

I think things like this are some of the more challenging areas for people to get over who haven't opened that door to our Father. It's the oft argument along these lines- "See See God is inherently evil because he says, thou shalt not kill, but then he goes off and wipes out the Caananites, etc." I'll see if I can find my answers in the Torah book you wrote as far as any legal ramifications I'm not quite understanding yet.


Shohn

The acctual text does not say thou shall not kill, it says thou shall not murder.
There is a difference between killing and murdering. Murdering is unjust killing.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Light1  
#8 Posted : Saturday, November 24, 2007 11:22:20 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
This still begs the question though with the commandment about not bearing false witness, does that exclude lying, being polite to protect someone's feelings, failing to disclose the whole truth when asked an open ended question, etc., or is this just a Western idea?
Well, I think lying to save the life of an innocent person would be excluded, for example if a Jewish guy was hiding behind my refrigerator in my apartment and some neo-nazis were outside by the door asking if I had seen any Jews around, I'd have no qualms about telling them, 'no I haven't-hope you find the bastard' to get them to leave so he could escape safely. Remember when Paul was arrested in Jerusalem and was brought before the religious court, he used a ruse (I'm on trial for believing the resurrection of the dead!) to divide the Pharisees and Saducees so he could get a change of venue to keep from getting killed while not denying Yahshua. You should never lie to Yahweh, about your faith in Him, yourself, fellow believers and your family-but when it comes to bad people out to do harm-I'd say you can be a little more flexible.
Offline Light1  
#9 Posted : Saturday, November 24, 2007 11:27:07 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
Somewhere in the Old Covenant, I recall reading about God asking some folks - who was willing to go down to earth and deceive one of the kings. It is one of the classic lines quoted by atheists to suggest that God is evil. The argument goes something like this, see God can deceive, therefore he is evil.
I think that incident is less about being deceptive and more about simply giving a bad man an additional push to bring him to his end that he has already chosen for himself by his evil acts. In fact, luring Ahab to his end was an act of mercy to help protect the Israelites who he was leading away from Yahweh because of his pagan activities.
Offline James  
#10 Posted : Sunday, November 25, 2007 6:42:29 PM(UTC)
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Light1 wrote:
Well, I think lying to save the life of an innocent person would be excluded, for example if a Jewish guy was hiding behind my refrigerator in my apartment and some neo-nazis were outside by the door asking if I had seen any Jews around, I'd have no qualms about telling them, 'no I haven't-hope you find the bastard' to get them to leave so he could escape safely.


I herd a great interview once with a Polish women, who was harboring a Jewish family during the Holocaust. When an SS found out he told her that if she slept with him he would not turn in the famliy, and so she did until the war was over. I know it's not the same as lying, but the idea that some times it is the rigth thing to do the wrong thing. if that makes sense.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#11 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2007 2:14:52 PM(UTC)
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James wrote:


I herd a great interview once with a Polish women, who was harboring a Jewish family during the Holocaust. When an SS found out he told her that if she slept with him he would not turn in the famliy, and so she did until the war was over. I know it's not the same as lying, but the idea that some times it is the rigth thing to do the wrong thing. if that makes sense.


What an awesome sacrifice to make for the lives of those Jews.
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline kp  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:10:35 AM(UTC)
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Not to be picky, but Yahweh didn't exactly say, "Don't lie." He said, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." (Exodus 20:16) And, "You shall not circulate a false report. Do not put your hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness." (Ex 23:1) Specifically, lying in order to harm someone or conspire against the innocent is forbidden, but I know of no scripture that prohibits telling something less than the whole truth in order to protect the innocent. Check out Proverbs 14:25... "A true witness delivers souls, but a deceitful witness speaks lies."

kp
Offline James  
#13 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:14:09 PM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
Not to be picky, but Yahweh didn't exactly say, "Don't lie." He said, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." (Exodus 20:16) And, "You shall not circulate a false report. Do not put your hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness." (Ex 23:1) Specifically, lying in order to harm someone or conspire against the innocent is forbidden, but I know of no scripture that prohibits telling something less than the whole truth in order to protect the innocent. Check out Proverbs 14:25... "A true witness delivers souls, but a deceitful witness speaks lies."

kp

great job of pointing out how out traditional interpretations are so so off. Even those of us with a love of truth often fall back on the traditional just because it is familiar. I herd it all my life, so I didn't even think to check the acctuall text, question everything is now on the postit note over my monitor. thanks for the continuing education Ken.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
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