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Offline Yiremiyahu16.19  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2012 4:30:38 AM(UTC)
Yiremiyahu16.19
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Location: South Africa

Shlwm

What a delight to read Yada Yahweh. Not because it's easy, no it's quite a mind bending experience to get all the adjectives to ompute inside my grey stuff :-)

I have a question that I need to get my head wrapped around.

How to express what's going on in my thoughts is difficult so I'll just let it go and I'm sure some-one around will understand what 'm getting at.

If YHVH is opposed to human sacrifice, why would Yahowsha be a sacrifice, after all, h was human?
Sacrifice means to give up something for the benefit of another (or in worship to a deity)
In the above meaning of sacrifice, how does YHVH sacrifice anything? Yahowsha endured some terrible suffering but after everthing, he rose and got even more back than what was initially his to have. (all power and authority). That is not sacrificing. OK, you might say (one sacrifice to gain later) he sacrificed his life to have eternal life. That does not square cause he had eternal life before.

I'm trying to understand WHAT sacrifice was made. And then why human if YHVH is diametrically opposed to it?

I will not render my understanding of these events at this time as I don't want it to form possible answers.

Baruch be'shem YHVH
Inherited Lies - t'was all a bunch of lies.
Offline FredSnell  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2012 5:38:30 AM(UTC)
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Hi.
I believe you already answered your question with one of your statements. "got even more back than what was initially his to have."
We are told in the beginning that the "Word" was with Him. He is the "Word" manifest. Remember, the Set Apart Spirit is provided
and part of Yahowah. So it is He that lets the Ruwach provide our covering. We have Her, the feminie side of our Father to thank for that.
The, "Word of God", name is, Torah. Yada spoke of the hebrew word, "choq," recently on BTR. I recommend his shows and really look into
that word. It's your clearly detailed perscriptions and instructions to living. Soon as you recognize it's Yah that is saving anyone, all the questions
actually roll right away. It was He that was walking and made manifest for us.
I'll let others a lot smarter than myself help. But I don't think there's any great mystery to any of it once you understand He was providing patterns for us
that want to learn.
Offline lassie1865  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:17:46 AM(UTC)
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YiremiYahu -

Just my 2 cents worth: No other human being was 'worthy' to serve as the Lamb; only Yahowah as Yahowsha could fit the bill;
God didn't want any humans to sacrifice any other humans for any reason whatsoever;
God probably made some "deal" with Satan in eternity past which somehow required God's soul to suffer under Satan, and to offer a blood sacrifice in order to redeem men's souls from Satan who stole them from God -- Satan probably thought that would be impossible for God to fulfill.

Offline Yiremiyahu16.19  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:30:58 AM(UTC)
Yiremiyahu16.19
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encounterHim.
I believe that when you give (sacrifice) something to gain afterward it is not sacrifice at all, that would be counted as economics. We do it everyday. We work and get paid and we think that we have gained because the effort in the end seems less than the benefit. Unless you're really underpaid :-). We trade in an pld car for a new. do we sacrifice having two cars for having one new one or is it pure economics?

lassie1865
"probably" does not do it for me. when we have to start answering questions with "probably he said this or probably he intended that" then we definetly DO NOT have a grasp on YHVH's Towrah. That is what most christians do. It's called spiritual interpretation and they can interpret the Word as they like, out of context, and just add "God gave me this revelation". It's the surest way to destruction.

I'm of the opinion that we should be able to comprehend and know (yada) YHVH. If we cannot do it by His word, then we cannot establish what He wants from us. Then we'll have to resort to probabilities and then no human would probably find the way. The issue about Yahowsha's death is a make-or-break issue and needs clarification.

So a probable deal with Satan is without a doubt not in YHVH Character. What could Satan possibly have that YHVH wants? How could Satan have an ace over YHVH that YHVH would have to 'make a deal' with him? Satan is but a created being, infinitly smaller and less powerfull than the creator himself. It would be a horrible joke to play on the human race if they were just a booty in a game of skills. Even though YHVH has made deals (covenants) with man, it never turned out in such a way that YHVH was on the short-side of the deal and man had Him by the short-hair, forcing a deal. I find it VERY hard to believe that Satan 'stole' the souls of men and now YHVH has to play him out in a game of poker!!! (Like Chris de Burgh's Spanish Train) and YHVH is working him with a plan.
YHVH owes the adversary nothing. YHVH owes nobody anything. (Or like the americans like to say with a double negative - YHVH owes nobody nothing)
Oh, let me not carry on with this. I am either without understanding and YHVH helps me for I am seeking Him daily for 15years on end, or this is an prepostrous idea. No malice intended.. :-)
Inherited Lies - t'was all a bunch of lies.
Offline James  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:01:39 AM(UTC)
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Here is how I see it, for what that's worth. There is a consequence of sin, and a penalty of sin. The consequence of sin is death and the punishment for sin is separation from God, although in a way the even the punishment is a consequence. The only way for these to be removed is for someone to take them from us. This is what Yahowsha did, and he was the only one qualified to do so. Because Yahowasha was without sin He could take upon Himself our sin, and endure the consequence, death, and the punishment, separation from God.

As for your question, "How does YHWH sacrifice anything?" To understand this you have to fully comprehend the nature of Yahowsha. There where 3 parts to Yahowsha, two are the same as every human has body and soul. The third is what made Him unique from all humans, Yahowah's spirit. The reason Yahowsha was able to live a sinless life was because Yahowah's spirit was within Him from birth. Having lived a sinless life Yahowsha was in a position to accept the punishment and consequence of our sins, which He did. Then in the final moments of His life, while he was nailed to the upright pole, Yahowah's spirit left Him, allowing the human body to die. That human body died, and was incinerated that night in accord Passover. That body is dead and gone, when he rose He had a new body. While His body was in the grave His soul descended into Sheowl and suffered separation from God. Now one could say that this was only for three days where as our punishment for sin is eternal, but when you stop to think about the nature of time it's not so clear cut. Based on what we know of Sheowl the nearest thing we could compare it to is a black hole. In a black hole all dimensions are compressed to a single dimension, time, which is eternal. So while I can not prove it or say for 100% sure, I would be willing to bet that from His perspective it was much more than three days. Another possible way to look at it is that Yah existing outside of time means Yahowsha's soul could have spent an eternity in Sheowl, to the point of Yah destroying this universe, and then released Him, and brought Him back. I don't think we will ever be able to fully comprehend what Yahosha's soul endured for what from our perspective was only a matter of days.

I hope this helps.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline FredSnell  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:03:12 AM(UTC)
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"I believe that when you give (sacrifice) something to gain afterward it is not sacrifice at all, that would be counted as economics."
Did Yahowsha depend on others? Did He sit at the gates and beg. No, and those that offered up services to either house or feed Him during His teaching years surely gained by it. But the point is, they had to have before they could offer. Meaning, they were lock and step in the system man had created back then.

"Unless you're really underpaid "
We are all underpaid..))

"Yahowsha's death is a make-or-break issue and needs clarification."
I know longer view Him as conquering death. Only the shell that holds our soul and spirit,, died. He told the thief on the pole that he would join Him on this day and be with YHWH. How could He do that if He were in She'ol paying for our wickedness, not His. Only the soul(nephesh) was there, the spirit (ruwach)if I'm clear on this returned with the thief. The soul of the thief was not punished thanks to Yah.

So, what is our Father paying for if He owes nothing? He's not paying in my opinion, He's offering unmerited favor to us through His willingness to pay for our debt. Something I'm sure the adversary hates.
Offline Yiremiyahu16.19  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:31:18 AM(UTC)
Yiremiyahu16.19
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Location: South Africa

In all fairness then, the word 'sacrifice' and its meaning as we have it does not really fit into the scheme of things. I am more than willing to settle for 'payment on our behalf'. Your explanation of the soul suffering but not the spirit has merit and I will meditate on that.

Mentioning the thief on the cross brings up a conundrum of sorts. This situation is easily misused by Christians to say that you 'only have to believe that Yahowsha is the Son of God' and you are saved. That notion then excludes the significance of Towrah obedience. when I start thinking about this issue of Towrah abedience it leads me always to ask a couple of questions to asertain the validity of the argument.
See if you make any logic of the following list of questions.
1. What is the difference between a Christian and a Messianic?
2. Obedience, goto 4
3. Legalism, goto 20
4. Are ou saved by Y’shua/Jesus?
5. Yes, goto 7
6. No, goto 20
7. Why do you follow Torah?
8. I do not follow torah, goto 20
9. To be Obedient & Love YHVH, Y’shua/Jesus said the law is not abolished, goto 11
10. It leads to salvation, it gives me the right to the tree of life and entrance into the New City Jerusalem’s gates, goto 33
11. If you are not obedient and does not love God, are you disobedient?
12. No, goto 7
13. Yes, goto 14
14. Will you miss the Kingdom because of disobedience?
15. No, goto 17
16. Yes, goto 23
17. Will Y’shua save you if you are disobedient?
18. Yes, goto 30
19. No, goto 14
20. Are you a Christian?
21. No, goto 4
22. Yes, goto 17
23. What must you do to be saved and enter the Kingdom?
24. Only believe in Y’shua/Jesus, goto 36
25. Become obedient, follow the Torah and trust that Y’eshua/Jesus was right, goto 33
26. Read Matthew 5:17-19; Rom 2:13; Rom 3:31; Matt5:20; Matt7:21; Matt19:17; John14:15; John14:21; John15:10; 1Cor7:19; 1John2:3-4; 1John3:22-24; 1john5:2-3; Rev12:14; Rev14:12; Rev22:14, goto 27
27. Do these scriptures say you need to follow torah?
28. No, goto 23
29. Yes, goto 7
30. Will disobedient sinners enter the Kingdom?
31. No, goto 14
32. Yes, goto 26
33. So torah obedience can save you?
34. No, goto 17
35. Yes, END
36. Is Yeshua/Jesus the Word of God?
37. Yes, goto 26
38. No, goto 20
Inherited Lies - t'was all a bunch of lies.
Offline FredSnell  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:55:43 AM(UTC)
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"^
Mentioning the thief on the cross brings up a conundrum of sorts. This situation is easily misused by Christians to say that you 'only have to believe that Yahowsha is the Son of God' and you are saved."
During the flood of Noahs time, how long before God shut what no man could open. Here in my mind, He is giving us another example of His Door, the one we enter through after careful consideration/and understanding. So the thief must had been enveloped by Yahs spirit at that moment to be able to stand in Gods Kingdom. The thief hanging on the pole, beside His pole. was there for a reason, he had not done what God ask of us all, abide. How do we abide then is the question. I'm using that word b/c again, a movie I saw called, "The Big Labowski" and in that movie, the lead character had a saying, "the dude abides." Do we all abide when we come to know what Yah has done for us, I say not even close. We are thieves finding ways to steal our every moment in mans ways. We can't help ourselves from being dis-obediant. As hard as we will try, we always slip. That's what God knows of us, He witnessed it at the beginning. And He knows the adversary is busy winning the world through deceptions of all sorts.
The list I'll ponder later just b/c my own sons are about to start harassing me if I don't go to work. Thanks for making me think this morning. This dude, trys to abide..))
Offline needhelp  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, August 29, 2012 4:04:36 AM(UTC)
needhelp
Joined: 5/19/2011(UTC)
Posts: 197
Location: US

Time to Yahowah is nothing and eternal at the same time. Yahowsha is a small piece of Yahowah. Yahowsha had to
stay in Sheol long enough to pay for the sins of every mortal
from time begin to time end. Being able to pass through time
only Yahowah/Yahowsha could know how long it would be in
"God's time", 3 days in ours. I think the sacrifice was/is time
away from Yahowah, the most painful thing to happen to
anyone. Especially Yahowsha, knowing Yahowah better than
all. We don't have to be separated from Yahowah. The price
has been paid, the sacrifice made.

Just a thought.
Offline JamesH  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, August 29, 2012 6:05:02 AM(UTC)
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Look up YHWH’s definition of sacrifice in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary #2076 and #2077 also see TWOT and BDB.

Sacrifice ( to slaughter an animal and prepare it for a meal with God)
Offline JamesH  
#11 Posted : Friday, August 31, 2012 6:04:31 AM(UTC)
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Based on the definition of (sacrifice) and the context it is used in the Torah.

“How can Yahowsha be a sacrifice?”

Is this why the Catholics symbolically eat the body of Christ in their Eucharist?
Offline FredSnell  
#12 Posted : Friday, August 31, 2012 6:27:54 AM(UTC)
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I think it was YHWH serving us a meal, and we commerate that meal every year at Pesach/Passover once we have taking into account Matsah/Unleven.

We see all of christianity in all its form resurrect the body every dang weekend, and on a Sunday to boot (which by the way,I'm glad b/c if they are wondering the wrong way, then stay there)that really in my thinking is of no consequence hince the reason we allow what was not consumed as our Passover remembrance, to stay on the pit until the fire has consumed it all. Saying, "see," there's nothing left for you to enjoy." Unlike christians and catholics that enjoy wearing their jewelry trying to prove their wortiness, and resurrecting a body.
Offline cgb2  
#13 Posted : Friday, August 31, 2012 7:06:31 AM(UTC)
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JamesH wrote:
.......Is this why the Catholics symbolically eat the body of Christ in their Eucharist?

Unforutunately it's worse than that. Via preistly flim-flam they believe the the bread and wine is literally turned it into the flesh and blood of god.
I've even heard catholics jokingly refering to themselves as cannibals.
Offline cgb2  
#14 Posted : Friday, August 31, 2012 7:10:35 AM(UTC)
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Offline vic108  
#15 Posted : Saturday, September 1, 2012 4:08:05 AM(UTC)
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when i've heard some "Christians" talk of the "blood of Christ", it sounds like they belong to a vampire death cult... "washed in the blood of Christ" and statements to that effect. They seem to forget just how brutal it all was... and they would be only too happy to nail Him up "on the cross" each and everyday.
"May your wisdom equal your zeal and your courage atone for your ignorance."
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