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Offline dajstill  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:15:55 AM(UTC)
dajstill
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Yes, all of this talk about circumcision led me to try to understand better the "unclean" aspects of a woman's monthly menstruation (hey, yall got to talk about yall's issues - LOL). Alas, I can't find it! I have been looking at the scriptures in Leviticus that have bee attributed to menstruation, but that isn't exactly what they are saying, from my "The Scriptures" bible anyway.

For instance:
Leviticus 12 covers a woman's bleeding following birth. This is definitely NOT a traditional menstrual cycle - it lasts a lot longer, is much heavier, and is definitely about cleansing the body of the waste produced by her baby (or babies as was my case when I had my twins!). However, it mentions "monthly separation" in 12:2 during the end of that verse is makes the statement "as in the days of her monthly separation she is unclean".

Leviticus 15 covers a woman bleeding, but it says curious things. For instance, Leviticus 15:19 says "When a woman has a discharge, and the discharge is from her flesh, she has to be in her separation for seven days. And whoever touches her is unclean until evening."

However, menstruation doesn't come "from her flesh". It isn't a cut, scrap, tear, etc. So, unless that word really isn't "flesh" than I don't think this is actually referring to menstruation - but I am relying upon English translations that aren't amplified for this.

When we get to Leviticus 15:24 is says: "And if a man lies with her at all, and her monthly flow is on him, he shall be unclean seven days. And any bed he lies on is unclean". Okay - now we are getting somewhere - it specifically mentions "monthly flow" - while it is in the same chapter as discharge from the flesh - monthly flow makes a lot more sense than discharge from her flesh.

Going on, Leviticus 15:25 says "And when a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, other than at the time of her monthly separation, or when she discharges beyond her usual time of monthly separation, all the days of her unclean discharge shall be as the days of her monthly separation. She is unclean."

For the life of me I cannot find the first time "monthly separation" is mentioned! Am I reading Leviticus 15:19 wrong? Because Leviticus 12 speaks of "monthly separation" as if it has already been covered.

Anyone got any ideas?

Offline needhelp  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:44:27 AM(UTC)
needhelp
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Maybe this will help some from the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament

Hebrew Word: nada
Strong's Cross Reference: 5077
Definition: I, put away, cast out.

Derivative TWOT Number: 1302a
Derivative Transliteration: nidda
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: 5079
Derivative Definition: filthiness, menstruous, set apart.

Derivative TWOT Number: 1302b
Derivative Transliteration: nida
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: 5206
Derivative Definition: filthiness. Occurs only in Lam 1:8.

The verb nada means "to exclude" (Isa 66:5), and "refuse to think or' (Amo 6:3). It occurs only in the Piel. Its synonym garash is more widely used. The Ugaritic ndy is parallel to grsh (UT 19:no. 1616; cf. Akkadian nadu "throw, neglect").

nidda. Filthiness, menstruous, put apart, separation, set apart, unclean thing. (RSV translates "Pollutions" in Ezr 9:11 and "filthy thing" in Lam 1:17; ASV "filthy thing" in Lam 1:17.)

Derived from nadad by BDB but from nada by KB. In the legal literature the word is used primarily to describe the ritual uncleanness incurred by women during menstruation or childbirth, two functions generally associated with impurity incurred from bodily discharges or secretions (Lev 12:2, Lev 12:5; Lev 15:19-20, Lev 15:26).

Everything on which a menstruous women might lie or sit was pronounced ritually unclean (nidda). The impurity defined by this word also extended to abnormal menstruation such as prolonged or irregular periods (Lev 15:25, Lev 15:33).

Ezekiel applies the word to the menstrual period in his description of the righteous man who, among other things, does not have intercourse with a woman during the time of her period (Eze 18:6; Eze 22:10) (a law dependent on Lev 18:19). See also Eze 22:10.

Metaphorically, the concept of the ritual impurity of the menstrual period was used by Ezekiel to describe the nature of Israel's sin (Eze 36:17). Basic to the metaphorical use of the term is the concept of abhorrence inherent in the physical origin of the term. It is used of useless currency cast into the streets like an abhorred thing (Eze 7:19-20). it is applied to Israel's most heinous sins (Zec 13:1; Ezr 9:11; 2Ch 29:5).

The word is used in the technical expression "water of impurity, " a purifying water used in the ceremony of cleansing from the defilement of death (Num 19:9, Num 19:13, Num 19:20-21). Bibilography: Harris, R. Laird, Mangod's Eternal Creation, Moody, 1971, p. 143. T.E.M.
Offline In His Name  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, May 23, 2012 3:58:10 AM(UTC)
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Dajstill,

Just a thought. I would investigate 'blood' to find your connection.
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline James  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, May 23, 2012 5:05:00 AM(UTC)
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dajstill wrote:
However, it mentions "monthly separation" in 12:2 during the end of that verse is makes the statement "as in the days of her monthly separation she is unclean".

The word “monthly separation” in 12:2 is derived from naddah dawah, and is a bit of a stretch. Naddah is excretion or menstruation, and dawah is illness. According to TWOT the avoidance of menstrual discharge was a part of the overall avoidance of discharges from the body, many of which are dangerous as a result of infection.
12:2 is the first use of naddah , and dawah.
dajstill wrote:
Leviticus 15 covers a woman bleeding, but it says curious things. For instance, Leviticus 15:19 says "When a woman has a discharge, and the discharge is from her flesh, she has to be in her separation for seven days. And whoever touches her is unclean until evening."
However, menstruation doesn't come "from her flesh". It isn't a cut, scrap, tear, etc. So, unless that word really isn't "flesh" than I don't think this is actually referring to menstruation - but I am relying upon English translations that aren't amplified for this.

The word flesh is basar, and has a variety of meanings. It can mean creatures or living things, flesh as in the soft-tissue components of the body including but not limited to skin, ligaments and muscles, the body as a whole or part, meat, human being, and genitalia.
And the word separation here is naddah, so literally her excretion.

dajstill wrote:
When we get to Leviticus 15:24 is says: "And if a man lies with her at all, and her monthly flow is on him, he shall be unclean seven days. And any bed he lies on is unclean". Okay - now we are getting somewhere - it specifically mentions "monthly flow" - while it is in the same chapter as discharge from the flesh - monthly flow makes a lot more sense than discharge from her flesh.

I am beginning to think the reason this is so confusing is the translators choose to translate the same word different ways. “Monthly flow” is naddah again. It seems like uncomfortable talking about it they tried to dance around it using different euphemisms rather than directly translating it. Can’t exactly blame them, this isn’t and easy topic for men to talk about.

dajstill wrote:
Going on, Leviticus 15:25 says "And when a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, other than at the time of her monthly separation, or when she discharges beyond her usual time of monthly separation, all the days of her unclean discharge shall be as the days of her monthly separation. She is unclean."

For the life of me I cannot find the first time "monthly separation" is mentioned! Am I reading Leviticus 15:19 wrong? Because Leviticus 12 speaks of "monthly separation" as if it has already been covered.

“monthly separation” is naddah and its first use it in Lev. 12:2.
If you are interested it is used 29 times in 24 verses as follows:
Leviticus:
12:2, 5
15:19, 20, 24, 25, 26, 33
18:19
20:21
Numbers:
19:9, 13 ,20, 21
31:23
Ezekiel:
7:19, 20
18:6
22:10
36:17
Zachariah 13:1
Lamentations 1:17
Ezra 9:11
2 Chronicles 29:5
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline needhelp  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, May 23, 2012 5:25:33 AM(UTC)
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Thanks James. You just answered most of my question.
Offline dajstill  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, May 23, 2012 6:30:11 AM(UTC)
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Me too!

Thanks James,

The plain meaning is just so much easier. If they didn't dance around the issue there wouldn't be any confusion or worry - blood is a very good carrier of infection and infectious disease. Avoid other people's blood. When someone is bleeding - keep yourself away from others so as not to spread any possible pathogens - even by accident. That is NOT hard, harsh, scary, mean, or bad. It's doesn't say He hates women, women are dirty, or somehow inferior. Just trying to literally keep everyone healthy.

Ugh - I just want to chuck every English translation I have out the window. I so cannot wait to see the true unadulterated scroll one day!
Offline James  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, May 23, 2012 8:27:34 AM(UTC)
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No problem.

Yeah if they would just stick to translating what was on the page they would b better off, or at the very least consistently translate.

And the point about blood being a carrier of infection is spot on. There is blood, it may or may not have an infection, avoid it. And the best way to tell someone that who doesn't have any idea of what an infection is is to just tell them that it is unclean, i.e. unhealthy, and to avoid it.

I'm with you, I can't use an English translation anymore, I have to pull up logos and examine Scripture. I am 100% convinced that you can not just read Scripture you have to study it, regardless of the translation.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Richard  
#8 Posted : Friday, May 25, 2012 5:56:53 AM(UTC)
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Dajstill,

I have been diagnosed with Hepatitis C. When a doctor at the V.A. Hospital in Seattle was describing the disease to us, he mentioned that it is essential that Christy not touch my blood because, as you have pointed out, blood is such an excellent carrier of disease. So I am glad that this question has been brought up in the forum and addressed in a mature, thoughtful way.

Thanks, y'all! Good stuff!
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