logo
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
View
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline James  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, January 25, 2012 9:00:11 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,606
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 208 time(s) in 146 post(s)
Opened Logos and like usual I scroll through the home page, sometimes they have good sales posted, and I see 5 things you don't know about John Calvin. So curiosity got the best of me so I opened it and this struck me as a common theme among the christian community.
wrote:
3. Calvin had a religious conversion.

Everyone knows the story of Luther’s conversion—his near-death experience and his commitment to a life of study. But did you know Calvin had a conversion experience, too? Calvin famously wrote in the preface to his commentary on Psalms:

John Calvin wrote:
“God by a sudden conversion subdued and brought my mind to teachable frame, which was more hardened in such matters than might have been expected from one at my early period of life. Having thus received some taste and knowledge of true godliness, I was immediately inflamed with so intense a desire to make progress therein, that although I did not altogether leave off other studies, yet I pursued them with less ardor.”


So both Calvin and Luther claimed to have a sudden conversion experience. This is a common theme that I have heard among christians as well, especially among their clergy. I have herd numerous stories of the pastors who lived a life of sin, seeking pleasures of the flesh, who all of a sudden have this experience and then they knew Jesus and dedicated their life to him. I could be wrong but in my view if you are not seeking God you will not find Him, it's the whole purpose of free will, we have to make the first move to come to know Yahowah, He does not impose himself on us.

So I am sure most know where I am going with this. Paul's story was similar to this. This is one of the other things about Paul's story that has troubled me for some time. His "conversion" account has Yah violating free will. Paul was not seeking Yah when he was on the road to Damascus, he was steeped in the religion of Judaism, and persecuting and executing those who were trying to follow Yah. In this his story is similar to that of Constantine, who claimed a miraculous conversion. I could be wrong but I do not buy these miraculous conversion stories be they Paul, Constantine, Luther or Calvin. If they said they were studying Scripture and something finally clicked and they understood it perhaps I would put some credibility into their conversion, depending upon what they teach and rather it correlates with what Yah taught us.

Sorry if I went off on a tangent here, I just read that and had to share.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline pilgrimhere  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, January 25, 2012 10:29:12 AM(UTC)
pilgrimhere
Joined: 1/11/2012(UTC)
Posts: 154
Man
Location: TX

Was thanked: 8 time(s) in 6 post(s)
Just last week, I decided to approach my wife with some concern regarding Paul to ‘test the waters’ for discussing other transitional ideas later. Constantine opened the scene with my remarks that his ‘conversion’ was so inconsistent with any manner of spiritual interaction that I was familiar with. Before I could address it, she mentioned Paul. We not only agreed that Paul’s experience was especially strange (like Constantine’s), but I discovered that she had already been questioning Paul. We had previously shared our individual frustrations with his confusing and confounding rhetoric. At some point, she had already found information online that introduced some doubt regarding him.

When I came across YY and FH, I had no idea how to present the concepts to my wife without generating some apprehension. Over the months that have passed, she is coming to realize on her own (hmm?) that there is something awry with her theological foundation.

Thank you for relating this, James.
Offline dajstill  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, January 25, 2012 1:13:05 PM(UTC)
dajstill
Joined: 11/23/2011(UTC)
Posts: 748
Location: Alabama

Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)
Wow!!! Didn't realize how many "church leaders" had Pauline conversions. As I think about the many testimonies I have had, I do realize many conversion stories I hear amongst Christians are similar.
In fact, the "alter call" of my churches is basically "come down here and get saved or burn in hell", pretty much creating more forced conversions. I have seen them go as far as "what if you die today, do you want to burn in hell forever".

I also found out something striking about Calvin - he had a hand in the death sentence of Michael Servetus on the grounds of "heresy". Yup, the Calvin that was himself almost a victim of being burned alive by the RCC himself testified against a man and in fact influenced the trial so that another person he disagreed with on doctrine killed for disagreeing. Guess what the charge was? Servetus had issues with the concept of the "Trinity" and said that it wasn't consistent with scripture and was actual pagan. He stated that the word "Trinity" should be removed from Christian teachings because it wasn't found in the scriptures. For that, John Calvin participated fully in the trial against this man knowing full well the man would be burned on a steak. The story is quite amazing and Wikipedia has a pretty good write up about the affair that can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus

Hearing about his conversion story, I am even more convinced that Christianity is a religion of Paul, not of Yahoshua, YHWH, or even "Jesus Christ".
Offline James  
#4 Posted : Thursday, January 26, 2012 3:01:04 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,606
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 208 time(s) in 146 post(s)
dajstill wrote:
In fact, the "alter call" of my churches is basically "come down here and get saved or burn in hell", pretty much creating more forced conversions. I have seen them go as far as "what if you die today, do you want to burn in hell forever".


Probably the single biggest thing that kept me from God for so long was the heaven/hell paradigm of every religion. It wasn't until I learned that that was not in Scripture that I was able to come to know Yahowah.

I think part of the reason christians so readily accept these miraculous transformation conversions is because the religion teaches this coercive god who uses the carrot and stick to get people to follow him. So with a coercive god like that him coming and knocking Paul on his a$$ and telling him what to do make sense, whereas those who understand free will, will have issues with it. God is interested in us coming to know Him, and once we make that decision He is there for us, He is not trying to force us to know Him.

Even in the one case I can think of in Scripture, there maybe another I am forgetting, Moshe had a completely different experience than any of these others. Yahowah appeared to Moshe and told him that He wanted him to do something and then the two engaged in a dialogue.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline dajstill  
#5 Posted : Thursday, January 26, 2012 4:05:21 AM(UTC)
dajstill
Joined: 11/23/2011(UTC)
Posts: 748
Location: Alabama

Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)
James wrote:


Even in the one case I can think of in Scripture, there maybe another I am forgetting, Moshe had a completely different experience than any of these others. Yahowah appeared to Moshe and told him that He wanted him to do something and then the two engaged in a dialogue.


Yes, the dialog that took place between Moshe and YHWH was the most interesting exchange I have found in all of Scripture thus far! Contrary to everything I had been "taught" about interacting with God (basically, He talks and you do what He says or He will kill you), Moshe and YHWH actually negotiated. In fact, Moshe was able to get YHWH to change His plans a bit - allowing Moshe to have Aahron speak on his behalf. It wasn't at all a one sided conversation in which Moshe had no say and no choices.

In fact, the entire story of Moshe infers that Moshe had a heart for the children of Israel, knowing they were his brothers and sisters (thus, the killing of the Egyptian). Moshe didn't leave because he didn't want to be in Egypt, he left because he was scared about the murder he had committed. So, sending Moshe back to Egypt wasn't completely an "against his will" sort of conversion. For instance, Paul's conversion made him completely change - he was on a mission of hate of the Jews and had the stuffing beat out of him by the "lighted messenger". Not so for Moshe, he wasn't inherently against the children of Israel. On the contrary, he left Egypt because he had tried to defend Israel in his own strength. YHWH simply helped Moshe understand his greater mission and that it wouldn't be completed in Moshe own strength, but in the awesome and perfect strength from YHWH. So, when we look at the entire story of Moshe in context, while his conversion experience was unique, it wasn't really against his will or completely out of his character. He was also allowed to negotiate a bit on how the mission would be completed.

Also, unlike Paul - when Moshe returned the people he had been sent to help accepted him and the help his was offering. They accepted what he required and did as he ask. Not so for Paul, most of the places he went to "help" people - they often ended up running him out of town. Even contrast that with Yahoshua - while the religious leaders rejected Him - the people he came to relieve from bondage did accept him. It was the rabbinical leadership that hated Yahoshua - but He didn't come for them, in fact He told them that their father was Satan. There were thousands of people that came to sit and hear Yahoshua speak and none of them tried to kill him. Paul was always running for his life, not so much from the rabbinical leaders only - but from everyone.

You are also correct in that the concept of forced conversions is readily accepted in the Christian religion. In fact, the more someone says that "didn't" want to be "saved", yet God made them by some sort of intervention (usually by almost killing them or having something else quite terrible happen) the more fame they have within the Christian church. The concept is, they must be "so important" that God couldn't wait for them to find Him - He had to step out of heaven and do a mini Paul experience.
Offline Daniel  
#6 Posted : Thursday, January 26, 2012 5:00:19 AM(UTC)
Daniel
Joined: 10/24/2010(UTC)
Posts: 694
Location: Florida

dajstill wrote:
Yes, the dialog that took place between Moshe and YHWH was the most interesting exchange I have found in all of Scripture thus far! Contrary to everything I had been "taught" about interacting with God (basically, He talks and you do what He says or He will kill you), Moshe and YHWH actually negotiated. In fact, Moshe was able to get YHWH to change His plans a bit - allowing Moshe to have Aahron speak on his behalf. It wasn't at all a one sided conversation in which Moshe had no say and no choices.


I (and others) have always wondered if this exchange was "theater", for our benefit? That is not to say that it was "just theater"! But, how much of this was "rhetorical" talk. YHWH knew what the outcome of the conversation would be, yet He still engaged in the discussion.

BTW: Abraham negotiated with the creator, too!

Ya' gotta love the chutzpah of the Hebrews: A least two of them have 'bargained with' God himself!
Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline James  
#7 Posted : Thursday, January 26, 2012 6:01:40 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,606
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 208 time(s) in 146 post(s)
Daniel wrote:
I (and others) have always wondered if this exchange was "theater", for our benefit? That is not to say that it was "just theater"! But, how much of this was "rhetorical" talk. YHWH knew what the outcome of the conversation would be, yet He still engaged in the discussion.

BTW: Abraham negotiated with the creator, too!

Ya' gotta love the chutzpah of the Hebrews: A least two of them have 'bargained with' God himself!


I would concur. Yahowah dictated the Towrah to Moshe so certainly in the instance of Abraham Yahowah wanted us to read that conversation, and I think the same is true for the instance of Moshe, Yah wanted us to read that conversation because it exemplifies the relationship He wishes to have with us.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline cgb2  
#8 Posted : Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:20:02 PM(UTC)
cgb2
Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 689
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 23 time(s) in 17 post(s)
dajstill wrote:
Yes, the dialog that took place between Moshe and YHWH was the most interesting exchange I have found in all of Scripture thus far! Contrary to everything I had been "taught" about interacting with God (basically, He talks and you do what He says or He will kill you), Moshe and YHWH actually negotiated. In fact, Moshe was able to get YHWH to change His plans a bit - allowing Moshe to have Aahron speak on his behalf. It wasn't at all a one sided conversation in which Moshe had no say and no choices....

....yet God made them by some sort of intervention (usually by almost killing them or having something else quite terrible happen) the more fame they have within the Christian church. The concept is, they must be "so important" that God couldn't wait for them to find Him - He had to step out of heaven and do a mini Paul experience.



The trouble is Exodus 4:10-26 isn't in the Dead Sea Scrolls of Exodus. It goes from verse 9 straight to 27. So all this isn't in there
:
Exo 4:10 And Mosheh said to יהוה, “O יהוה, I am not a man of words, neither before nor since You have spoken to Your servant, for I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.”
Exo 4:11 And יהוה said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, יהוה?
Exo 4:12 “And now, go, and I shall be with your mouth and teach you what to say.”
Exo 4:13 But he said, “O יהוה, please send by the hand of him whom You would send.”
Exo 4:14 And the displeasure of יהוה burned against Mosheh, and He said, “Is not Aharon the Lĕwite your brother? I know that he speaks well. And see, he is also coming out to meet you. And when he sees you, he shall be glad in his heart.
Exo 4:15 “And you shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth. And I am with your mouth and with his mouth, and I shall teach you what to do.
Exo 4:16 “And he shall speak for you to the people. And it shall be that he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be an elohim1 for him. Footnote: 1Or mighty one, which is proof that elohim is but a title, indicating order or authority – it is not a proper name.
Exo 4:17 “And take this rod in your hand, with which you shall do the signs.”
Exo 4:18 Then Mosheh went and returned to Yithro his father-in-law, and said to him, “Please let me go and return to my brothers who are in Mitsrayim to see whether they are still alive.” And Yithro said to Mosheh, “Go in peace.”
Exo 4:19 And יהוה said to Mosheh in Miḏyan, “Go, return to Mitsrayim, for all the men are dead who sought your life.”
Exo 4:20 So Mosheh took his wife and his sons and set them on a donkey, and he returned to the land of Mitsrayim. And Mosheh took the rod of Elohim in his hand.
Exo 4:21 And יהוה said to Mosheh, “As you go back to Mitsrayim, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I am going to harden his heart, so that he does not let the people go.
Exo 4:22 “And you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus said יהוה, “Yisra’ĕl is My son, My first-born,
Exo 4:23 so I say to you, let My son go to serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, see, I am killing your son, your first-born.” ’ ”
Exo 4:24 And it came to be on the way, in the lodging place, that יהוה met him and sought to kill him.
Exo 4:25 And Tsipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and threw it at Mosheh’s feet, and said, “You are indeed a bridegroom of blood to me!”
Exo 4:26 So He let him go. Then she said, “You are a bridegroom of blood,” because of the circumcision.
Offline James  
#9 Posted : Friday, January 27, 2012 2:58:40 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,606
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 208 time(s) in 146 post(s)
cgb2 wrote:
The trouble is Exodus 4:10-26 isn't in the Dead Sea Scrolls of Exodus. It goes from verse 9 straight to 27. So all this isn't in there


To be precise it doesn't go straight from 9 to 27, it's just that the verses in between are not extant. I only say this because there are areas in the older text DSS and Greek Manuscripts where verses are not just not extant, but the evidence is that they were never there. So for example the 6th verse is instantly followed by say the 9th verse, so we know that 7 and 8 were not in the text at that time. With Exodus 4 this is not the case, we have verse 9 and then we don't have anything until verse 27.

Just trying to clarify I would hate for someone to get the impression that these verse never existed, they did we may not be positive that what we have is exactly what was written, but they where here. And since what is written is consistent with Scripture and Yahowah I see no reason to doubt it.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline cgb2  
#10 Posted : Friday, January 27, 2012 7:49:20 AM(UTC)
cgb2
Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 689
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 23 time(s) in 17 post(s)
James wrote:
To be precise it doesn't go straight from 9 to 27, it's just that the verses in between are not extant. I only say this because there are areas in the older text DSS and Greek Manuscripts where verses are not just not extant, but the evidence is that they were never there. So for example the 6th verse is instantly followed by say the 9th verse, so we know that 7 and 8 were not in the text at that time. With Exodus 4 this is not the case, we have verse 9 and then we don't have anything until verse 27.

Just trying to clarify I would hate for someone to get the impression that these verse never existed, they did we may not be positive that what we have is exactly what was written, but they where here. And since what is written is consistent with Scripture and Yahowah I see no reason to doubt it.


Yes, I read/heard somewhere as if extant on same page, thought I verified in my DSS bible, but on looking closer confirmed what you said to be the case. Sorry folks, I'll be more careful.
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.