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Offline Theophilus  
#1 Posted : Thursday, January 26, 2012 6:10:08 AM(UTC)
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I've started a conversation with a Christian who holds to a predestination of saved and hardened hearts. In the couse of the conversation he asked what Scriptural support I could offer that shows or counters the ones commonly used to show God elects or hardens hearts. While love and engaging in the covenant seem self evident, what specific Scriptural refrences would you point to that illustrate the free-willed choice inherent in authenitic love and participation in the covenant.

FWIW, I began by sharing Pslam 119:1-16 amplified in ITG, but am seeking more as the popular trnslations bury this message under obiedience to laws.

Thank you,

-Theophilus
Offline James  
#2 Posted : Thursday, January 26, 2012 7:26:25 AM(UTC)
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While i think it is pretty self evident, if there is no free will there is no need for anything. But a quick search provided the following good verses to point to Deuteronomy 30:11-19 Joshua 24:15 Proverbs 3:31

But really it is never stated, so you have to take what is taught and extrapolate. For instance we are told to love Yahowah with all out hearts, mind and being. Love requires free will.

Not to side track in the second post, but something I did find interesting is that most all verse used to argue against free will are from the Greek text, namely Paul's writings. I wonder if that is a linguistic difference between Hebrew and Greek. I know Hebrew has several stems used for the purpose of conveying volition, I don't know if this is the case with Greek. Perhaps the Greek language is more limited in this way and therefore translating the Hebrew into Greek looses this.

That is another problem you are likely to run into is the fact that English translations often ignore the volitional aspects of the Hebrew language and turn requests and desires into commands. In the Hebrew language we see God wanting and desiring us to do things, and not telling us to do them, that alone negates the anti-free will position, but since they are only interested in English translations they will not listen to such evidence.

Good luck, in my experience this is a futile fight, but always worth the effort.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline dajstill  
#3 Posted : Thursday, January 26, 2012 8:35:30 AM(UTC)
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In my ISR translation, in Exodus 4:21 - the word is not "harden" it is "strengthen". To me that says YHWH made Pharaoh more firm in his choice, but it was Pharaoh who initially made the choice. Also, Pharaoh had dealt wrongly YHWH's people for a very long time - at some point you run out of time to say "sorry".

Another thing I see with Pharaoh is that even when he pretended to relent, he was really lying. For instance, when he finally said he was letting the children of Israel go - he still pursued them with his army. It needed to be clear to Pharaoh that he was not an equal with YHWH. He was trying to negotiate in ways that would have the children of Israel violate the plans of YHWH (for instance, saying the men could go worship but not the women and children). It seems YHWH simply allowed Pharaoh to be completely overcome with his own delusions of grandeur so that it would be clear to all the people in the land just who was the true God. Remember, at that time Pharaoh's were considered a "god" or having unfettered access of and to a god.

When it comes to the concept of "predestination", Christians often lean on Jeremiah 1:4. However, people often forget that the Scriptures are made up of the events in the lives of those who obeyed. For instance, this may be considered controversial, but I don't know how many people YHWH revealed Himself to before Abram. Maybe Abram was the first one, but maybe YHWH had approached others and they didn't heed. Adam and Hawwah didn't "have" to partake of the tree. Cain didn't "have" to kill Abel. Canaan didn't "have" to defile Noah. The Scriptures are about the events as they happened, but we have to keep in mind that things are as they are because of the choices that were made. Because YHWH made man and knows man, He knew the choices man would make - thereby creating the plan of salvation from the beginning. We are still free to choose. As a mom, I know my children very well. One of my son's loves chocolate milk - so I make sure to have some on hand for him at all times. I still ask him each morning what he would like to drink with his breakfast. 99% of the time he ask for chocolate milk, but 1% of the time he ask for juice. Although I am pretty sure what his preference is, I still give him the choice and he is still able to freely make his choice. I didn't "predestine" him for chocolate milk and I didn't "harden" his heart against juice. I just know my kid well enough to know pretty well what his choices will be.

Matthew 22 gives the story of Yahoshua telling of the wedding feast. It clearly indicates that many are called, but very few actually answer the call. That right there indicates the concept of "predestination" is not true. Yes, many formed in their mother's womb have a plan in place to find their way to YHWH. However, few ever choose that path.

It would be a pretty sick God that would "predestine" someone for destruction. And just who on this earth is worthy of "predestination"? Who is arrogant enough to say that "they" were chosen for life with YHWH while someone else was born for destruction or eternal torment? That gets a little too close to the Aryan concepts of greater people and lesser people for my taste. YHWH doesn't automatically like some people more than others. He is simply true to His word. One thing I didn't really learn until I started to real the amplified passages from YY is how YHWH said things that were true, but He didn't "make" them happen. For instance, visiting the sins of the fathers to the third and fourth generation found in Exodus 20:5 - YHWH isn't punishing son's for their father's sins, its just that many people will teach their children the exact same sins they are doing - thus the children and grandchildren receiving the exact same punishment of the father. In Fact, Ezekiel 18 tells us that a son who chooses to do right and does not do the sins of the father will not be punished. This again blows away the concept of predestination. You are judged according to what "you" do, your eternal life is determined by the choices that "you" make. In fact, when Moshe led the children out of Egypt, it was a mixed multitude - anyone who choose to join in of their own free will were allowed to go into freedom and become a part of YHWH's family.
Offline James  
#4 Posted : Thursday, January 26, 2012 9:01:13 AM(UTC)
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Well said dajstill. The whole of Scripture is about presenting the choice we have. Free will is rarely addressed because it is so inherent in everything.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Daniel  
#5 Posted : Thursday, January 26, 2012 10:29:23 AM(UTC)
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dajstill wrote:
When it comes to the concept of "predestination", Christians often lean on Jeremiah 1:4.


For the past few weeks, when a christian cites something from the "OT", I've been stopping them and saying that they are out of order and that they are only allowed to quote things from the "NT". They get one warning, then I slam their heads against the table when they do it again. Effective!

dajstill wrote:
I don't know how many people YHWH revealed Himself to before Abram. Maybe Abram was the first one, but maybe YHWH had approached others and they didn't heed.


My buddies and I were taking about this very issue just the other day!
Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline tagim  
#6 Posted : Thursday, January 26, 2012 12:03:28 PM(UTC)
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Abram's brother, for instance.
Offline Theophilus  
#7 Posted : Thursday, January 26, 2012 2:02:59 PM(UTC)
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Thank you all for your insightful input.

The fellow I was conversing with dismissed Psalm 119:1-16 as David loving God's Law but said he didn't see anything about choice. he next asked if could use Messiyah (he didn't call Him that) words , to support my position on free-willed choice.

After a moment's thought I quoted the YY amplified John 3:14-18. Messiyah's equating His immanent fulfillment of Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits with people making an unforced choice as to whether to trust an rely upon Him or not, as well as the consequences.

I'll let you know how it goes, but will not expect a breakthrough based on your experiences.

Respectfully,

-Theophilus
Offline Daniel  
#8 Posted : Friday, January 27, 2012 5:08:46 AM(UTC)
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Theophilus wrote:
The fellow I was conversing with dismissed Psalm 119:1-16 as David loving God's Law but said he didn't see anything about choice.


Send him over to 119 Ministries website http://testeverything.net/.

While some here will not approve of some of the names & titles the producers use INTERCHANGEABLY FOR INSTRUCTIONAL PURPOSES in their videos, your pal may start to have the scales removed from his eyes.

Edited by moderator Friday, January 27, 2012 10:58:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: removed inappropriate language

Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
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