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Offline lassie1865  
#1 Posted : Friday, July 8, 2011 12:22:16 PM(UTC)
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I've been thinking about the Sabbath Day and our calendar. After reading much about the Hebrew lunar calendar, the various Roman calendar changes, and now the "New World" calendar, etc., it seems that there have been many reworkings of the calendar we all are expected (forced) to live by. The more I think about it, the more it seems apparent that our "7th Day Sabbath" is not objective at all; no one knows when the "7th Day" really is, and surely Yahowah has a specific day in mind. The only way it can be objectively determined is if it be associated with the phases of the moon. So, I think that it is worth pursuing this subject. I found a lot of interesting material at: http://www.creationcalendar.com/

Shalom
Offline Matthew  
#2 Posted : Friday, July 8, 2011 5:50:14 PM(UTC)
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lassie1865 wrote:
I've been thinking about the Sabbath Day and our calendar. After reading much about the Hebrew lunar calendar, the various Roman calendar changes, and now the "New World" calendar, etc., it seems that there have been many reworkings of the calendar we all are expected (forced) to live by. The more I think about it, the more it seems apparent that our "7th Day Sabbath" is not objective at all; no one knows when the "7th Day" really is, and surely Yahowah has a specific day in mind. The only way it can be objectively determined is if it be associated with the phases of the moon. So, I think that it is worth pursuing this subject. I found a lot of interesting material at: http://www.creationcalendar.com/

Shalom


Yeah, I've heard that before but the moon cycle and 7 day cycle simply don't gel together. However, when you consider that Yahshua spent the night/day in the grave on a natural Sabbath (Friday night to Saturday) night then it begins to gel together. Plus if you consider Yada and KP's 6000+1000 years working, and the fulfillment of the Feasts on their specific dates then the 7 Day cycle becomes really relevant.

Here's a quote from KP in a personal email to me sometime ago when we were discussing Unleavened Bread, and it's relation to the Sabbath, especially since the word "Sabbath" is not used to describe UB, and to the counting of the weeks to the Feast of Weeks:

Quote:
And then there's the theory (have you heard of this one?) that in ancient Israel the days of the week were "re-set" at every new moon. That way, the 7th, 14th, 21st, and 28th of every month would be Sabbath days. Though I can't be sure either way, historically, there is some evidence that this might have been the practice. Of course, the theory messes up the placement of UB, which had to be both a Shabbat and fall on the 15th of Nisan. It's enough to make your head swim.
Offline RidesWithYah  
#3 Posted : Saturday, July 9, 2011 5:07:04 AM(UTC)
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There is a documented, uninterrupted chain of seven day weeks from the time Messiah walked the earth.
He kept the seventh day Sabbath, and we know He did it right!
Offline lassie1865  
#4 Posted : Monday, July 11, 2011 12:29:39 PM(UTC)
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I don't think any of you has read the link that I posted. There is some really good information there giving the background on each calendar change both Roman and Babylonian vs. Judah in the 1st Century. According to the lunar calendar, the first day of each month is the New Moon Day - that is called neither a "Sabbath" nor a "work day", the next day is the first day of the week, the eighth day of the month is a "weekly Sabbath", therefore, the 15th day, the 22nd day, and the 29th days of each and every month are also "weekly Sabbaths". The nice thing about this is that Unleavened Bread and Sukkah both are appointed for the 15th day of the month, and the 15th day of the month is always a Sabbath -- and the "first day of the week" is always the day after a Sabbath . . .
Offline FredSnell  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, July 12, 2011 3:27:28 AM(UTC)
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Alot of info there, thanks! This will be some nice interesting reading this following Sabbath. So far, I have read some and find it interesting as how this guy and his wife learned this on their on.
Offline cgb2  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, July 12, 2011 12:21:50 PM(UTC)
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lassie1865 wrote:
...The nice thing about this is that Unleavened Bread and Sukkah both are appointed for the 15th day of the month, and the 15th day of the month is always a Sabbath -- and the "first day of the week" is always the day after a Sabbath . . .


Yeah, but I'd bet what makes a mess is 7-7s (shavuot)
some years 6-7s+1-8 or 6-7s+1-6 or even 6-7s+1-9

Sorry, that lunar sabbath dog don't hunt :^)
Offline lassie1865  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:54:57 AM(UTC)
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Yes, but consider this:

There is a lot of information about the change of calendar from a lunar based week to a continuous week - here is an excerpt from http://www.hope-of-israel.org/sabtosat.htm:


Babylonian Rabbis Divorce the Sabbath

While the influence of Rome caused the early Christians to adopt a continuous seven-day week with the Sabbath on every seventh day, the Jews came under a more subtle influence.

Following the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., the Palestinian Jews struggled hard to retain control of the sacred calendar. Notes the Encyclopedia Britannica:

The calendar was originally fixed by observation, and ultimately by calculation. Up to the fall of the Temple (A.D. 70), witnesses who saw the new moon came forward and were strictly examined and if their evidence was accepted the month was fixed by the priests. Eventually the authority passed to the SANHEDRIN and ultimately to the PATRIARCH. When necessary, a second "Adar" was inserted in order that the reaping of the corn should come at Passover. Gradually observation gave place to calculation. The right to determine the calendar was reserved to the PATRIARCHATE; the JEWS OF MESOPOTAMIA tried in vain to establish their own calendar but the perogative of Palestine was zealously defended.



Continues the encyclopedia –



So long as Palestine remained a religious centre, it was naturally to the homeland that the Diaspora looked for its calendar. Uniformity was essential, for if different parts had celebrated feasts on different days confusion would have ensued. IT WAS NOT UNTIL THE 4TH CENTURY A.D. THAT BABYLON FIXED THE CALENDAR...The Talmud speaks of various New Year's Days. It may be regarded as certain that in Palestine the New Year [Rosh Hoshana] began in NISSAN (cf. Exod. xii. 2) and IN BABYLON in TISHRI (volume 4, article "Calendar").



What is not realized by many is that control of the calendar implied ultimate POLITICAL AUTHORITY in Judaism. In other words, whoever controlled the calendar also controlled the destiny of the Jewish people -- for good or for evil!

"In the period after 70 C.E." writes Herschel Shanks, "THE RABBIS ARROGATED THIS AUTHORITY TO THEMSELVES. In the story that appears in the Talmudim, Rabbi Hananiah, an emigre Judean scholar, tried to assert the SUPREMACY OF BAYLONIAN JEWRY by asserting its right (that is, his own right while in Babylonia) to intercalate the calendar. His attempt was unsuccessful because it was SEVERAL CENTURIES TOO EARLY. This authority remained for some time with the rabbis in the land of Israel" (Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism, p. 197).

Notes Shanks --

All this BEGAN TO CHANGE IN THE THIRD CENTURY C.E. Ultimately the rabbis of Babylonia themselves cited, in retrospect, the return of one of their own, Rav (Abba), to Babylonia in 219 C.E., as the BEGINNING OF A NEW ERA in the relative status of the two great Jewish communities: "We have made ourselves [or, consider ourselves] in Babylonia like Eretz Israel -- from when Rav went down to Babylonia." While this may seem to telescope a long drawn out process into one identifiable event, the fact is that the date designated in that statement indeed POINTS ACCURATELY TO THE EARLY THIRD CENTURY, when Babylonia's star began to rise (ibid., p. 262).



While the control of the calendar remained in the hands of the Palestinian Jews it was inviolate; but when control passed to the Babylonian Jews events transpired that affected the calendar and the keeping of YEHOVAH God's true Sabbath day. The environment that brought this about is discussed by Herschal Shanks in the following pages of his book –



As we enter the third century, we find that the Jews of Babylonia have at their head an EXILARCH (resh galuta, "HEAD OF THE DIASPORA") with [false] claims to Davidic lineage...But the exilarchate did not rule the Babylonian Jewish communities single-handedly. Alongside the exilarch a new framework of leadership -- THE RABBIS OF BABYLON -- emerged.



Continues Shanks:



If the rabbis of Babylonia were PRUDENT in their relationship with the exilarch, they were EVEN MORE CAUTIOUS in defining and publicly stating their attitude toward the GOVERNMENT. As we have already noted, it is in Babylonia [not Palestine] that we encounter the well-formulated principle that "THE LAW OF THE GOVERNMENT IS LAW" (ibid., pp. 263-264).



Shanks brings out the fact that there were very marked differences in the ATTITUDE TOWARD GOVERNMENT and the preservation of Jewish religion and life between the Palestinian and Babylonian Jews. The Palestinian Jews jealously guarded their religion and way of life while the Babylonian Jews were clearly willing to accomodate the government of their area and COMPROMISE certain principles they held. This included the Sabbath day.

During this time a major revival of the Zoroastrian religion took place (226 A.D.) when the first Sassanian King, Ardeshir, came to the Persian throne. He made reforms to the old lunar-based calendar that had a far-reaching effect on his people (especially the Jews) who initially rejected his new calendar since it affected their religious observances. This resulted, for a while, in TWO CALENDARS, one decreed by the king and the other, older one, followed by the majority of the people in the Kingdom. Eventually, however, the new calendar won out and the Persians, as well as the Jews of Babylonia, began to organize their sabbaths according to the new solar calendar.

Hutton Webster makes mention of this fact, stating that

There is extant a Pehlevi tract, said to have been composed in Persia during the FOURTH CENTURY A.D., which mentions among other matters FIVE DAYS IN EVERY MONTH, namely, THE 1ST, 7TH, 14TH, 22ND, AND 30TH, as times to be observed by abstinence from all worldly business...These precepts are no longer observed; in fact, their very existence is unknown to most Parsis at the present day. See D.F. Karaka, History of the Parsis, London, 1884, i, 132 sqq. (Rest Days: A Study in Early Law and Morality. New York: The MacMillan Company, 1916. Footnote p. 166).



In the early centuries of the Christian era many Christians became confused over the proper date for Passover. This is made clear by the early 5th century church historian Socrates Scholasticus (born circa 379 A.D. in Constantinople) in his Ecclesiastical History –



...In Asia Minor most people kept the fourteenth day of the moon, DISREGARDING THE SABBATH: yet they never separated from those who did otherwise, until Victor, bishop of Rome, influenced by too ardent a zeal, fulminated a sentence of excommunication against the Quartodecimans in Asia. Wherefore also Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons in France, severely censured Victor by letter for his immoderate heat; telling him that although the ancients differed in their celebration of Easter [Passover], they did not desist from intercommunion. Also that Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna, who afterwards suffered martyrdom under Gordian, continued to communicate with Anicetus bishop of Rome, although he himself, according to the usage of his native Smyrna, kept Easter on the fourteenth day of the moon, as Eusebius attests in the fifth book of his Ecclesiastical History. While therefore some in Asia Minor observed the day above-mentioned, OTHERS IN THE EAST KEPT THAT FEAST ON THE SABBATH INDEED, but differed as regards the month. THE FORMER [those in Asia Minor] THOUGHT THE JEWS SHOULD BE FOLLOWED, THOUGH THEY WERE NOT EXACT: the latter kept Easter [Passover] after the equinox, REFUSING TO CELEBRATE WITH THE JEWS; "for," said they, "it ought to be celebrated when the sun is in Aries, in the month called Xanthicus by the Antiochians, and April by the Romans." In this practice, they averred, THEY CONFORMED NOT TO THE MODERN JEWS, WHO ARE MISTAKEN IN ALMOST EVERYTHING, BUT TO THE ANCIENTS, and to JOSEPHUS according to what he has written in the third book of his Jewish Antiquities. Thus these people were at issue among themselves. But all the other Christians in the Western parts, and as far as the ocean itself, are found to have celebrated Easter after the equinox, from a very ancient tradition (book 5, chapter 22).



Notice here that the early Christians were sharply divided over the correct date for Passover. Two ideas were prevalent: (1) That Passover should be observed on the 14th day of the moon while disregarding the lunar weekly Sabbath cycle. (This belief was based upon the premise that "the Jews should be followed"). However, this idea was vigorously contested by (2) "Others in the East [who] kept that feast ON THE SABBATH indeed, but differed as regards the [use of a calendar based exclusively upon the whole moon] or month." "Based upon the Eastern practice," notes James Dwyer, "it was believed that the then Jews WERE NOT IN COMPLETE ADHERANCE WITH MORE ANCIENT JEWISH PRACTICES" (A New Look at the Christian Sabbath).

"Essentially," continues Dwyer, "one group adhered to the practice of current Jews (which was the determination of Passover by the 14th day of the Moon, and by a strictly lunar-based calendar). The other group adhered to a more ancient Jewish determination which computed the date of Passover according to the SABBATH CALENDAR (the same as the ancient Chodesh Cycle -- or fixed weeks plus renewal [or new moon] days" (ibid.).

This passage from Socrates Scholasticus clearly shows that the Jews had gone astray by the early 5th century and were no longer keeping the weekly Sabbath cycle (which was in tune with the moon's phases) as ordained by YEHOVAH God in Exodus 16. The fact that "others in the East kept that feast [Passover] on the sabbath" indicates that this group was still keeping YEHOVAH's lunar weekly Sabbath calendar -- under this calendar the first high day of Passover ALWAYS fell on a weekly Sabbath (the 15th of Nisan).


As for counting the Omer, it also works out if you use the lunar calendar and if you use "seven weeks complete" not counting the New Moon, and then adding 50 days . . . Think about it . . . the wheat would have to be ripe by Shabua, and that wouldn't happen until late July . . . SEE: http://creationcalendar....ssue/17-FeastOfWeeks.pdf
Offline cgb2  
#8 Posted : Thursday, July 14, 2011 7:52:16 AM(UTC)
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I tried to read some of that...very difficult to follow.
I'll stick with the oft quoted Psalms "Torah...is simple for the open minded" along with Genesis 1 defining what a day and week is.
Offline James  
#9 Posted : Thursday, July 14, 2011 9:17:34 AM(UTC)
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Looking over the website, I don't find a compelling Scriptural argument for a lunar based Sabbath.

Yah's instruction concerning the Sabbath reads:

Exodus 20:8-11 wrote:
"Remember (zakar — recall, recognize, mark, memorialize, mention, proclaim, and be earnestly mindful of) that the Sabbath (shabat — the seventh day, the time of observance, of rest to reflect on God’s promise to settle our debts so we could settle with Him on the seventh) day (yowm) is set apart (qadash — is separated unto God for purifying and cleansing and thus special). Six (shesh) days you shall work (‘abad — labor) and do (‘asah — prepare and produce, fashion and finish, advance, assign, and accomplish, institute and celebrate) all (kol — the entirety of) your service of representing the Messenger and proclaiming the message (mala’kah — your Godly duties and heavenly labor). But (wa) the seventh (shaby’y — solemn promise which fulfills and satisfies those who listen and are observant of the role of the seventh) day (yowm), the Sabbath (shabat — the seventh day, the time of observance, of rest and reflection, and of ceasing and desisting from ordinary labor to consider the promise to settle all disputes and settle down) of Yahuweh (YHWH) your God (‘elohym), you shall not do (lo’ ‘asah — not prepare or produce, fashion or finish, advance, assign, or accomplish) any part of (kol) the work of God’s Representative and Messenger (mala’kah — from mal’ak, the ministry and mission of the heavenly envoy, the Divine endeavors and labor of God’s corporeal manifestation) yourself (‘atah), nor your son (ben), your daughter (bat), your servants and employees (‘ebed / ‘amah), your means of production (behemah — animals and beasts of burden), and those visitors (ger - foreigners) who relationally (‘asher) are in (ba) your home, property, or community (sa’ar — area enclosed by a door or gate, a household, assembly, city, or nation). For indeed in (ky — because surely and truly in) six (shesh) days (yowm) Yahuweh (YaHuWeH) made (‘asah — prepared and produced, fashioned and finished, instituted and celebrated) accordingly (‘eth) the heavens (shamaym — the spiritual realm) and the earth (‘erets — the material world), and the seas (yam), and all (kol — everything) which relationally (‘asher) is in them (ba). And (wa) He became completely settled (nuwach — rested after settling all unresolved issues) during (ba) the seventh (shaby’y — solemn promise which fulfills and satisfies those who listen and are observant of the role of the seventh) day (yowm). Therefore (ken — consequently, this is true and correct) Yahuweh blessed and adored (barak — knelt down and lowered Himself to greet those He had created and lift them up on) the Sabbath (shabat — the seventh day, the time of observance, of rest and reflection, and of ceasing and desisting from ordinary labor to consider the promise God has made to settle our debts and settle us in His home on this) day (yowm), setting it apart (qodesh — separating it from others, dedicating it to separation, cleansing, and purifying).


This to me is pretty straight forward and simple. Nowhere in the instruction concerning the Sabbath is the moon ever mentioned.

To me the Sabbath is a perfect example of Yah's 6+1 plan. Work six days rest one day. If the weeks are reset with every new moon then there would be weeks where 6+1 is destroyed.

The Towrah takes the time to tell us how to tell when to add an intercalery month, it tells us how to tell when a month begins. I think if Yah had intended the Sabbath to be determined by the moon's cycle he would have told us that in his instruction concerning the Sabbath. In His instruction concerning the Sabbath Yah told us what the Sabbath is, what it symbolizes, what is commemorates, and what it predicts. But as far as calculating it all He told us was 6+1. If the week were to be set according to the month then why did he not tell us that, why did He not once, but twice tell us 6+1.

Like I said the biggest problem for me is the calculation Yah gave us for the Sabbath is 6+1, and to use the lunar cycle to reset the weeks means once a month 6+1 is ignored. 6+1 Sabbath is easily seen in Scripture, modifying it to fit the lunar calendar is an extrapolation at best, and one that contradicts the 6+1 of the instruction.

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline lassie1865  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, July 19, 2011 7:41:30 AM(UTC)
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Here is a link that may be more helpful:

http://www.lunarsabbath..../conclusive_evidence.htm

Think of this -- a Sabbath year is every 7th year (6+1), however, a Jubilee is year 50 (6+1)x7 +1; there are TWO years of rest before starting the count to the next Sabbath year. So, the 7th Sabbath years are interrupted with a Jubilee year; 6+1 is a "pattern", not a "continuous cycle." The weekly Sabbath is every 7th day, but Sabbaths are interrupted by the day of the New Moon -- two days in a row before starting the count again.

Shalom
Offline cgb2  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:52:40 PM(UTC)
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lassie1865 wrote:
Here is a link that may be more helpful:

http://www.lunarsabbath..../conclusive_evidence.htm

Think of this -- a Sabbath year is every 7th year (6+1), however, a Jubilee is year 50 (6+1)x7 +1; there are TWO years of rest before starting the count to the next Sabbath year. So, the 7th Sabbath years are interrupted with a Jubilee year; 6+1 is a "pattern", not a "continuous cycle." The weekly Sabbath is every 7th day, but Sabbaths are interrupted by the day of the New Moon -- two days in a row before starting the count again.

Shalom


Yes, was helpful in seeing this teaching violates 6+1 and examples of twisting scripture out of context
Offline bigritchie  
#12 Posted : Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:08:23 AM(UTC)
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Hmm I thought I would post my 2 cents on this issue.

Before I do let me state that I know often times when I write on the internet I come across as a jerk (I am actually a very nice and pretty goofy guy in real life) So If I ever come across as a jerk to anyone on this forum, I apologize hehe.

Anyways, what I am about to say, I do not really know how to say it without being blunt. I hope no one of the opposing view takes my comments personally.



The Tanakh is very specific that in the last/latter days the GENTILES will cry out to the JEWS for the pagan things they have inherited. Not the other way around.

In fact I have not saw one scripture anywhere that indicates that the christian messianics playing dress up Jew and saying "Shaul" to impress their christian friends would correct the Jews on the correct day of the Sabbath (not to mention in the Creation account Sabbath was a few days AFTER the moon was made)

Please note my comments above are not directed at anyone posting. What I am talking about, is the Messianic movement is FULL of people who figure out Christmas and Easter is pagan, and think they are some religious guru. The entire lunar Sabbath issue comes from GENTILE CHRISTIANS or Former Christians who have slapped on a tallit and speak in what I call "Hebronics".

Most of these gurus do NOT know Torah, and they are to busy playing costume party and butchering the Hebrew language to actually learn what Torah teaches. For example these people are busy telling you that Paul is Kosher if you look at him from a Hebraic perspective, but never even consider the REAL HEBREWS have told the Christians for 2,000 years that Paul is full of it.

Karaites have kept the calendar for thousands of years, and take vows to the Creator in their wedding vows to properly keep it! The Jews have been doing this stuff alot longer then the christian pastor who says "Shaul" and decides the Sabbath must be Lunar based.

Anyways just my 2 cents and opinion.

Also let me just add, I have SEVERAL friends who are lunar Sabbath people. I am not saying you are bad and evil if you keep the lunar Sabbath. Quite frankly I could careless as it does not affect me and my family!
Offline James  
#13 Posted : Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:25:48 AM(UTC)
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lassie1865 wrote:
Here is a link that may be more helpful:

http://www.lunarsabbath..../conclusive_evidence.htm

Think of this -- a Sabbath year is every 7th year (6+1), however, a Jubilee is year 50 (6+1)x7 +1; there are TWO years of rest before starting the count to the next Sabbath year. So, the 7th Sabbath years are interrupted with a Jubilee year; 6+1 is a "pattern", not a "continuous cycle." The weekly Sabbath is every 7th day, but Sabbaths are interrupted by the day of the New Moon -- two days in a row before starting the count again.

Shalom

Okay, having read through this twice now, there was one argument which at first glance had me question, but upon examining it, it falls apart.

The argument that the Sabbath fell on the 15th on both the first month and second month that Israel was lead out of Mitsrayim. But when I actually examined the evidence it seems to me that they are making Scripture fit their view.

The argument to me falls apart with their "proof" that the day that Israel was lead out was a Sabbath, and that day was the 15th. The evidence is overwhelming that it was the 15th, but they fail to prove that it was a Sabbath.

Website wrote:
The first moon, when they left Mitzrayim was on the 15th, that day they actually got rest from Mitzrayim bondage. Deut. 5:15 says "and remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Mitzrayim, and that thy mighty One brought thee out (15th) thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore thy mighty one commanded thee to keep the Shabbat day."

Now ask yourself, what did being delivered from Mitzrayim bondage have to do with the Shabbat day? Unless, it was on the 15th, and a Shabbat.

They were commanded to keep the Shabbat day because they were delivered from Mitzrayim bondage on the Shabbat day, which was the 15th. (See Num. 33:3) Just as in the Creation Week, YaHuWaH rested on the Shabbat day. It is a Memorial Day of rest.


This is were it falls apart because their reasoning is flawed. This is what happens when people take a verse out of context, especially when trying to prove their own agenda. The reason the 15th verse says to remember that you were a servant in the land of Mitzrayim, is not an attempt to link the Sabbath to the day of the Exodus, it flows straight from the 14th verse, which was conveniently omitted. The 14th verse reads, "and the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah thy God; thou dost not do any work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy man-servant, and thy handmaid, and thine ox, and thine ass, and all thy cattle, and thy sojourner who is within thy gates; so that thy man-servant, and thy handmaid doth rest like thyself." In context it is obvious that "remember that you were a servant in the land of Mitzrayim" is being given as the reason for "thou dost not do any work .... thy man-servant, and thy handmaid doth rest like thyself."

I only address this point because it is the only point that to me had merit at first glance. I still fail to see any Scriptural evidence for anything other than a weekly Sabbath, every 7 days.

My biggest problem is the credibility of the websites author, they have a lot of the basics wrong (such as worship) and they do one of the things I hate (quote verses out of context, or just sight verse out of context, with Scripture context is king). But beyond that they fail to provide Scriptural evidence for there position.

Here is an amplified presentation of the Deuteronomy reiteration of the Sabbath instruction.

Deuteronomy 5:12-15 wrote:
You shall observe (shamar — be aware of, pay attention to, carefully consider, revere, cling to, and be secure in, keep and rely upon) the Sabbath (shabat — the seventh day, the time of rest and reflection to observe the fulfillment of God’s solemn promise to settle us in His home and settle all disputes, completely satisfying us so that we can celebrate this) day (yowm) set apart (qodesh — separating it for purification, making it special) as Yahowah your God commanded (sawah — instructed and directed). Six (shesh — purification by bleaching mankind (represented by six) white) days (yowm) you shall labor doing your ordinary work (‘abad), and (wa) you shall do (‘asah) all (kol) your spiritual service (mala’kah — work associated with declaring Heaven’s message; from mal’ak, spiritual messenger and heavenly representative), but (wa) the seventh (shaby’y — solemn promise which fulfills and satisfies those who listen and are observant of the role of the seventh) day (yowm) observe the Sabbath (shabat) unto (la)
Yahowah (YaHoWeH) your God (‘elohym — Mighty One). On it you shall not do (‘al lo’ ‘asah) any (kol) spiritual service (mala’kah — work associated with declaring Heaven’s message; from mal’ak, spiritual messenger and heavenly representative), not you (‘atah), your son, daughter, male and female servants, animals, or means of production (behemah — domesticated animals), or foreigners (ger — visitors from other places and races) which are within your gates, spiritually resting and reflecting (ruwach) with you. For the purpose and intent that (lema'an) your male servant and your female servant rest (nuach) just as (ka - similar to) you. And you should be mindful (zakar — remember and recall, being thoughtful) that indeed (ky), you existed as (hayah) a slave (‘ebed — were in bondage) in the realm (‘erets) of the crucible of Egypt (misrayim) and Yahowah (YaHoWeH) your God (‘elohym) led and brought you out (yasa’ — descended and extended Himself to serve) from (min) there (sham) with (ba — in and by way of) a strong and mighty hand (chazaq yad — firm and resolute, authoritative and capable hand, which prevailed against a loud and severe spirit [Satan]), and (wa) with (ba — in and by way of) the Almighty’s (‘el) outstretched (natah — by giving and revealing, bending down as an inclined extension, and camping out by setting apart a) Sacrificial Lamb (zarowa’ — the arm strong enough to shoulder the burden).


Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline James  
#14 Posted : Thursday, July 21, 2011 4:27:20 AM(UTC)
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Another thing to consider

Leviticus 23 wrote:
Accurately count (saphar - reckon, record, relate, rehearse, and regale) from the day after (mahorath - the next day following) the Shabat (shabat - the day of rest and reflection), from (min) the day (yowm) you came forth and bore(bow’ - arrived with and included) the sheaf of grain (‘omer - bundle of grain prepared for processing and transport) as an ascending wave offering (tanuwpah - a gift of fruit which is lifted up, from nuwph, to elevate and move something which is sprinkled and anointed to and fro), a total (hayah - the existence) of seven (sheba’ - a sworn oath)complete (tamym - full, right, true, and perfect) Sabbaths (shabath - weeks). Always and forever (‘ad - eternally and into perpetuity), you shall accurately count, reckon, record, relate, rehearse, and regale (saphar) the Day of Fifty (yowm chamisym - the Feast of Chamisym), starting from (min) the next day after (mahorath) the seventh (shabiyiy) Shabat (shabat - week), and you shall come near and approach (qarab) Yahoweh’s renewed and restored (hadas)gift (minhah - offering given freely as a present without compensation).


Deuteronomy 16 wrote:
You shall accurately count (sapar - reckon, record, relate, rehearse, and regale) seven (sheba’) sevens (shabuwa’ - weeks) for (la - concerning and on behalf of)yourself (‘athah) from (min) beginning to (halal) bring a sickle (hermes) against(ba) the standing grain (qamah - from quwm, to stand upright and rise). Begin(halal) to count (sapar) seven (sheba’/i]) sevens (shabuwa’ - weeks). Keep (‘asah - attend to and celebrate) the Festival Feast (chag) of Sevens (Shabuwa’ - Weeks) to Yahoweh your God (‘elohym) with a sufficient (misah - an appropriately affordable portion; from masas, an ultimately insignificant) voluntary offering (nadabah - freewill contribution; noncompulsory donation) from your hand, which by association (‘asher)you can give (nathan - bestow, deliver, and entrust) relative to (ka - according to)how (‘asher/i]) Yahoweh your God ([i]‘elohym) blesses and adores ([i]barak - kneels down and favors) you.


So the Miqra of Weeks was to be kept Seven Sabbaths plus one day from the Miqra of FirstFruits, which is Seven Weeks plus one, which is fifty days. The use of Seven Sabbaths and Seven Weeks to say the same thing strongly implies that the Sabbath is weekly. Also if the Sabbath is reset by the moon then there would not always be fifty days from Firsfruits. If the Sabbath is reset by the moon, since Firstfruits and Weeks are t months removed, one occurring in the first month and one in the third, the Sabbath count would reset twice during the time in between, and the fifty day count would not coincide with the Seven Sabbaths count.

Seven Sabbaths + 1 = Seven Weeks +1 = 50 days

I'm always willing to admit I might be wrong, but the Scripture just doesn't seem to support a lunar based Sabbath, as I see it.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline James  
#15 Posted : Thursday, July 21, 2011 6:23:25 AM(UTC)
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I went ahead and moved this topic to it's own thread so that the discussion can continue in a more appropriate place.


It seems the more I examine this, the more holes I find in the argument. I’m really seeing this as a stretch now. It is asserted that no Sabbath in scripture can be shown to occur on any day other than an 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th of a lunar cycle.

The word “Sabbath” appears in more than 100 passages of the Tanakh and Greek text. It seems, at first thought, that if not one of those can be shown to fall on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, etc., day of the month, that that would be fairly significant evidence in favor of the lunar Sabbath theory. However upon examination there are many passages in the Tanakh and Greek text that refer to the Sabbath in a precept in such a way as to provide no precise and certain information regarding the correlation of days with months. See Ex 20:8-11; De 5:12-15; Ex 31:14-16; Ex 35:2-3; Le 24:8; Nu 28:9-10; Neh 9:14; 1 Chr 9:32; Ps 92:1; Amos 8:5; Jer17:21-27; Is 56:2, 6; Is 58:13; Matthew 24:20; John 7:22-23;

There are 20 Stories in the Tanakh and Greek text that refer to the Sabbath, but without dating it in terms of a day of the month. See Nu 15:32; 2Ki 11:5-9, 2Chr 23:4-8; 2Ki16:18; Neh 10:31; Neh 13:15-22; Matthew 12:1-12, Mark 2:23-3:4, Luke 6:1-9; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; Luke 4:31; Luke 13:10-16; Luke 14:1-5;Acts 1:12; Acts 13:14-44; Acts 15:21; Acts 16:13; Acts 17:2; Acts 18:4; John5:9-181; John 9:14-162.

Having checked now a number of the verses cited by lunar based Sabbath proponents as showing that the Sabbath is shown to be on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th , everyone ranges from a far stretch to a very far stretch, not once is it spelled out in a way that is definitive.

Just one example of a 15th day Sabbath that is a huge stretch is the fact that the manna stopped falling on the 16th of the first month. But the passage, Joshua 5:10-12, says nothing about whether the 15th had been a Sabbath. Indeed, if the 15th was a Sabbath, then the last day of manna falling was the 14th rather than the 15th. Joshua says that the manna ceased the day after they ate of the produce of the land, and that that was the day after the 14th. Therefore manna fell on the 15th and therefore the 15th wasn’t a Sabbath. So this example actually disproves rather than proves the lunar Sabbath.

Not one example I have found gives hard and fast evidence for the Sabbath being on any particular day of the month. But the Joshua verse above strongly suggests that the 15th of that month was not a Sabbath, much more strongly than the 15th being a Sabbath.

Again the more I read the more holes there are in the reasoning.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Walt  
#16 Posted : Thursday, July 21, 2011 6:48:20 AM(UTC)
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To me, it's simple:
If Yah wanted us to coordinate the Sabbath schedule with the lunar cycle, He would have clearly instructed us to.
He made it simple enough of a schedule (6 days you shall work, the 7th you shall rest) that no matter what man concocts for a calendar, it can be followed.

WHICH particular day is Sabbath on man's (babylonian system) changing calendar isn't important, just following the 6 + 1 cycle.
If my wife and I do the craft fair circuits for a job, Fri, Sat & Sun become our working days - we would probably make Thurs our 1st day and Wed Sabbath.
I would rather contort man's calendar to keep Yah's Set-Apart cycle, than contort Yah's to fit within man's paganized calendar.
If someone were to "judge" me for not doing Sabbath on Sat, that would be their problem. I would be keeping the 6 days you shall work and on the 7th Sabbath with a clear heart.

Boy James, you sure dug your Scripture researching teeth into this topic. THANKS for providing clear data to those who aren't sure and don't post questions.

bigritchie, dealt with plenty of the type you are talking about to fully know what you are saying. That's why we stopped looking for "groups" to fellowship with.
Offline cgb2  
#17 Posted : Thursday, July 21, 2011 7:28:27 AM(UTC)
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I hear ya Walt and Big Ritchie. Seems even with small groups there is always an element of "leader" and "followers" and still conforms to the control and plunder model. Almost always some "new" doctrinal or specialty thing to gather a following.
I've also experienced fallout for questioning Sha'ul, and prior to was told i wasn't ready for leadership...as if I even desired this. This tiny affiliation was even considering a large potential donor's offer if they would only accept lordship of the state by taking a 501c3.
Offline Matthew  
#18 Posted : Thursday, July 21, 2011 12:35:33 PM(UTC)
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Nice work James!

Walt wrote:
To me, it's simple:
If Yah wanted us to coordinate the Sabbath schedule with the lunar cycle, He would have clearly instructed us to.


Solves the riddle, doesn't it :P
Offline cgb2  
#19 Posted : Friday, July 22, 2011 3:11:34 AM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
Nice work James!

Walt wrote:
To me, it's simple:
If Yah wanted us to coordinate the Sabbath schedule with the lunar cycle, He would have clearly instructed us to.

Solves the riddle, doesn't it :P


I recall in amplified translations, YHWH often used "my clearly communicated instructions"....and not to add to or take away from them.
Offline lassie1865  
#20 Posted : Friday, July 22, 2011 8:28:13 AM(UTC)
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These are all very good points you bring up. But then, what is all the fuss about "Sunday worship"? Sunday is just as good a day as any.
Offline James  
#21 Posted : Friday, July 22, 2011 9:56:21 AM(UTC)
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lassie1865 wrote:
These are all very good points you bring up. But then, what is all the fuss about "Sunday worship"? Sunday is just as good a day as any.

Well the first thing wrong with Sunday Worship, is worship, something Yahowah does not want.

The second thing is that it doesn't bother to consider in the slightest Yahowah's instructions. Those who worship on Sunday do so because that is what the church teaches, not in observation of Yah's instructions.

Personally I see no reason to doubt that the Sabbath as kept by Jews the world over is not the Sabbath. My reasoning is as follows:

1) We know that the Yahowdim of Yahowsha's time kept the Sabbath correctly. I say this because we have no record in any of the eye witness accounts of Him teaching otherwise, and I am positive that if they were he would have told people, and something that big the eye witnesses would have recorded.

2) History from that time on is pretty well documented, we have letters and historians who kept records. Therefore you I would expect to see some evidence that in that time Jews the world over began keeping a different Sabbath. We have evidence of the Church instituting Sunday worship in place of the Sabbath, but there is no evidence that Jews changed their reckoning of the Sabbath during this period. No historian, no historical figure bothered to make note of the peculiarity of an entire religion, one spread all over the world, suddenly changing one of their most sacred precepts? If such a decision was made would it not have been evidenced in some way. The Talmud contains chapter after chapter of religious rabbis debating on how to interrupt and change the "law" but not once is there a mention of changing the reckoning of the Sabbath, and there are plenty of debates concerning calendar days.

A change that big to occur world wide and not be noted by anyone is just a stretch to big for me.

Now I know this is not 100% proof that it didn't happen, but the lack of Scriptural and historic evidence, combined with the tangled and flawed reasoning behind everything I have read in favor of it, is enough to make me say that I am virtually certain that the Sabbath is not supposed to based on the moon cycle.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline lassie1865  
#22 Posted : Friday, July 22, 2011 11:21:37 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for the references; what version are you using; will a NIV translation be clear enough?

I certainly agree that Yahowsha would have been keeping the proper day. I understand that Philo and Josephus do write about the change from a lunar-based calendar to the continuous weeks calendar of Rome:

"Scripture calls the 8th day of the month the Sabbath and Philo calls the 8th day of the month the
Sabbath. Josephus calls the 15th the Sabbath and proves that the 16th is the first day of the week
(information below). If the 15th is the Sabbath in any given month, so is the eighth. (See illustration B
on the following page). If the 16th is the first day of the week, what is the day after the 8th day of the
month? The Essenes call it the 9th day of the month first day of the week. So does Philo. Scripture
reveals the same thing. Note: There are some Essene documents that record other calendars than the
lunar-solar because they saved every parchment that had the Name YHVH on it. Even if the doctrine
was bad, they would not destroy the document because of their great respect for the Name of Yah. So
I accept the Essene documents that agree with Scripture, disregard the others.
Flavius Josephus lived from about 37 CE to 100 CE and undoes the Gregorian calendar in a
different fashion but nonetheless supports the Creation Calendar and the lunar Sabbaths. There are in
Scripture several passages that prevent any child of the King from ever accidentally falling into the
wrong calendar for worship. Exodus 12:2-6 and Leviticus 23:4-14 introduce us to three fixed date
work days. Abib 10, Abib 14 and Abib 16.
The 10th day of Abib is the day to set aside the Passover lamb. This is a work/commerce day. A
sheepherder may have a suitable lamb, but a fisherman or a tent-maker may not. Abib 10 is the day to
PURCHASE a suitable lamb. Abib 10 floats on the Gregorian calendar [translation: satyrday falls on
Abib 10 at times]. Commerce is prohibited on Sabbath and there is NO legislation in Torah to purchase
the Passover lamb on either the 9th or 11th of Abib IF satyrday just happens to land on Abib 10.
The 14th day of Abib is always the preparation day for the first day of Unleavened Bread. Matthew
27:62, Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54--24:1, John 19:14, 31, 42—John 20:1. Satyrday falls on Abib 14
from time to time. The fact is that the 10th, 14th and 16th of Abib are, without exception, commanded
work days. The barley could be harvested on the 16th after the Wave Sheaf had been offered,
Leviticus 23:9-14. Can we harvest our fields on Sabbath?
If there is a continuous 7 day cycle, every few years either the 10th, 14th or 16th will fall on a Satyrday.
Evidence: Abib 10 fell on a “Saturday” in 2003. The 14th fell on “Saturday” in 2004." http://www.judaismvschri...JosephusLunarSabbath.pdf

"that the moon was used to determine YAHOWAH's weekly Sabbath day is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Fragments of lunar days 4 through 25 were uncovered at Qumran describing the moon's appearance and movements in relation to the sun. Wise, Abegg and Cooke, in their book The Dead Sea Scrolls, A New Translation, translate the fragment for lunar day 8 as follows --

On the eighth of the month [chodesh], the moon rules all the day in the midst of the sky...and when the sun sets, its light ceases to be obscured, and thus the moon begins to be revealed on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" (pp. 301-303).

The same thing is repeated in the fragment for the 22nd day of the month (chodesh). Unfortunately, the fragments for the other moon quarters are either more fragmentary, contain less information, or are altogether missing information pertinent to the moon phases. What is significant is that these fragments are the oldest written references in Paleo-Hebrew CONNECTING THE QUARTERS OF THE MOON TO THE WEEKS.

Dated to the 1st century B.C., these fragments are probably a copy of a much earlier writing. Notice how the fragment for the eighth day describes the moon being in the sky during the daylight hours. Then, after sunset, "its light ceases to be obscured." This is just how the first quarter appears with the moon's light continuing for several hours past sunset, thus marking THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK. According to one of the authors (Martin Abegg, Jr. -- Director of the Dead Sea Scrolls Institute) the Hebrew text reads echod beshabat, literally meaning "FIRST OF THE COUNTING OF THE SABBATH"

As for the Feast of Weeks, how can the Spring wheat be ready for harvest in 50 days when it really takes 100 to ripen? What if we are supposed to count "7 Sabbaths complete (7 weeks of 7 days, not counting the short New Moon weeks), THEN count 50 days" that would bring us to July 29th.


Question about the word "worship": What word is used in the manuscripts for "worship YHWH"? Everywhere I look, I can only find "worship God", etc., and "worship" is defined in the lexicons as "bow down". So, in other words, the translators are using "worship" in place of ???
Offline shalom82  
#23 Posted : Friday, July 22, 2011 11:31:27 AM(UTC)
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Num 10:11 And it came to be on the twentieth day of the second month, in the second year, that the cloud was taken up from above the Dwelling Place of the Witness.
Num 10:12 And the children of Yisra’ĕl departed, setting out from the Wilderness of Sinai. And the cloud dwelt on it in the Wilderness of Paran.

Num 10:33 So they set out from the mountain of יהוה on a journey of three days. And the ark of the covenant of יהוה went before them for the three days’ journey, to seek out a resting place for them.


YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline James  
#24 Posted : Friday, July 22, 2011 4:03:34 PM(UTC)
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The authors of this document, like the others, and like all that I have read concerning the lunar Sabbath, excel at taking things out of context and twisting them to fit their idea.

Document wrote:
In Allegorical Interpretation, 1 IV (8), it says…“Again, the periodical changes of the moon, take place according to the number seven, that star having the greatest sympathy with the things on earth. And the changes which the moon works in the air, it perfects chiefly in accordance with its own configurations on each seventh day. At all events, all mortal things, as I have said before, drawing their more divine nature from the heaven, are moved in a manner which tends to their preservation in accordance with this number seven. … Accordingly, on the seventh day, Elohim caused to rest from all his works which he had made.”

…Notice that Philo says the moon is perfect in its shape or appearance at seven day intervals. Had aHebrew speaking Israelite written this he would have said “it perfects chiefly in accordance with its own configurations on each Sabbath day instead of each “seventh” day because elsewhere in his writings, Philo identifies that when he mentions the seventh day [of the week] he is speaking of the Sabbath.


Seems pretty convincing, until you examine it in context. To start with, “elsewhere in his writings, Philo identifies that when he mentions the seventh day [of the week] he is speaking of the Sabbath” is an inaccurate or at least misleading statement. Nowhere is this found in Philo’s Allegorical Interpretations, and while it may be in another of his writing, I haven’t read all of them but have not seen it in what I have read and they don’t cite where so I cannot verify. But that is moot because unless he says that in this set we have no reason to apply it to this volume of writing.

Now let’s examine how they have taken this out of context to suit their point. We will start at the beginning and go through the end of Allegorical Interpretation 1 section IV. They started their quote half way through verse 8, thus disrupting the context. For those interested here is an online site which contains Philo’s work, and specifically AI 1: http://www.earlyjewishwr...om/text/philo/book2.html you can navigate the site to find more.

Philo’s Allegorical Interpretations 1 IV wrote:
IV. (8) But nature delights in the number seven. For there are seven planets, going in continual opposition to the daily course of the heaven which always proceeds in the same direction. And likewise the constellation of the Bear is made up of seven stars, which constellation is the cause of communication and unity among men, and not merely of traffic. Again, the periodical changes of the moon, take place according to the number seven, that star having the greatest sympathy with the things on earth. And the changes which the moon works in the air, it perfects chiefly in accordance with its own configurations on each seventh day. (9) At all events, all mortal things, as I have said before, drawing their more divine nature from the heaven, are moved in a manner which tends to their preservation in accordance with this number seven. For who is there who does not know that those infants who are born at the end of the seventh month are likely to live, but those who have taken a longer time, so as to have abided eight months in the womb, are for the most part abortive births? (10) And they say that man is a reasoning being in his first seven years, by which time he is a competent interpreter of ordinary nouns and verbs, making himself master of the faculty of speaking. And in his second period of seven years, he arrives at the perfection of his nature; and this perfection is the power of generating a being like himself; for at about the age of fourteen we are able to beget a creature resembling ourselves. Again, the third period of seven years is the termination of his growth; for up to the age of one and twenty years man keeps on increasing in size, and this time is called by many maturity. (11) Again, the irrational portion of the soul is divisible into seven portions; the five senses, and the organ of speech, and the power of generation. (12) Again, the motions of the body are seven; the six organic motions, and the rotatory motion. Also the entrails are seven--the stomach, the heart, the spleen, the liver, the lungs, and the two kidneys. In like manner the limbs of the body amount to an equal number--the head, the neck, the chest, the two hands, the belly, the two feet. Also the most important part of the animal, the face, is divisible according to a sevenfold division--the two eyes, and the two ears, and as many nostrils, and in the seventh place, the mouth. (13) Again, the secretions are seven--tears, mucus from the nose, saliva, the generative fluid, the two excremental discharges, and the sweat that proceeds from every part of the body. Moreover, in diseases the seventh day is the most critical period--and in women the catamenial purifications extend to the seventh day.


Fist take note that suspiciously absent from all of section IV is, “Accordingly, on the seventh day, Elohim caused to rest from all his works which he had made.” Philo did write this, but it is in VI (16), not IV (8). So they had to skip 18 sentence, over three paragraphs and two sections separated, in order to link the moon cycle to the Sabbath.

The entirety of section IV is being used to show how the number seven shows up time and time again throughout nature. It has nothing to do with a lunar Sabbath. All he is saying about the moon is that it cycles through in seven day increments, so on the seventh day of its cycle it is half, on the 14th day of its cycle it is full and on the 21st day of its cycle it is half. There is no link here whatsoever to the Sabbath, and not implication of a lunar based Sabbath.

It is telling the lengths with which they went to stretch this to mean that, and this is their first piece of evidence, one imagines that the best would be presented first.

Their next citation is from Philo’s Decalogue, and reads:

Document wrote:
“The Decalogue XXX (159),
But to the seventh day of the week he has assigned the greatest festivals, those of the longest duration, at the periods of the equinox both vernal and autumnal in each year; appointing two festivals for these two epochs, each lasting seven days; the one which takes place in the spring being for the perfection of what is being sown, and the one which falls in autumn being a feast of thanksgiving for the bringing home of all the fruits which the trees have produced”…
Let’s look carefully at what Philo is saying. To the seventh day of the week He [the Father above] has assigned the greatest festivals, in other words the greatest (longest) festivals have been assigned to the seventh day of the week. Philo, keeping the same luni-solar calendar established in Scripture, calls the first day of each of these seven day feasts the “seventh day of the week”. Scripture says that both of the seven day feasts (Unleavened Bread and Tabernacles) begin on the 15th day of their respective months. Friend, the seventh day of the week is the Sabbath, is it not? It is the seventh day of the week EVERY year. If the 15th is the weekly Sabbath, so are the 8th, 22nd and 29th days of the month.


This one is interesting, but while we are in Philo’s Decalogue I would like to examine another section real quick, which I think will shed a little light.

Decalogue XX wrote:
(96) The fourth commandment has reference to the sacred seventh day, that it may be passed in a sacred and holy manner. Now some states keep the holy festival only once in the month, counting from the new moon, as a day sacred to God; but the nation of the Jews keep every seventh day regularly, after each interval of six days


Now that seems pretty unequivocal. Philo is stating that the practice of the Jewish nation at His time was to keep the Sabbath every seventh day regularly, after each interval of six days. Philo for those interested lived 20BCE-50CE, so right during the time of Yahowsha. So here he has stated unequivocally that the normative practice of the Jews of Yahowsha’s time kept a weekly and not lunar based Sabbath. Not only that but that those that did keep a lunar based Sabbath only did it once a month.

So let’s look at the Section XXX, and its (161) not (159) by the way. Reading it in light of Section XX(96) we have two choices, either Philo is contradicting himself, or we are misinterpreting what he has said in one of the two passages. So giving him the benefit of the doubt, let’s assume that we are misinterpreting one of the two. (96) is pretty straight forward, I fail to see any other way of interpreting it than the Jews of his time kept a weakly Sabbath, if you have another interpretation I am all ears. So let’s look at (161) and see if there is another possible interpretation than the one which lunar Sabbath advocates have come up with.

Decalogue XXX (161) wrote:
But to the seventh day of the week he has assigned the greatest festivals, those of the longest duration, at the periods of the equinox both vernal and autumnal in each year; appointing two festivals for these two epochs, each lasting seven days; the one which takes place in the spring being for the perfection of what is being sown, and the one which falls in autumn being a feast of thanksgiving for the bringing home of all the fruits which the trees have produced. And seven days have very appropriately been appointed to the seventh month of each equinox, so that each month might receive an especial honour of one sacred day of festival, for the purpose of refreshing and cheering the mind with its holiday.


Now first thing I notice is that he does not say that these festivals begin on the seventh day of the week. So another possible interpretation of this, one that would be in keeping with what he wrote in section XX is that Philo is simply saying that there are only 2 festivals, the longest, that always include the Sabbath, which makes them special since other festivals do not necessarily include it. So again either Philo contradicted himself with in the span of about two pages, and no one noticed at the time, in which case he become an unreliable witness, or the alternative interpretation of XX(161) is correct and lunar based Sabbath advocates of the time were so small in number that the majority of the people at the time understood exactly what he was saying.

So again we have a section taken out of context and used to prove a lunar Sabbath. Really however XX (96) should be all that is needed to prove that the Jews of Yahowsha’s time kept a weekly Sabbath, but in the interest of completeness, let us examine some more of their quotes.

Document wrote:
Speaking of “lunar” intervals, in Special Laws I. (178), Philo writes…“…there is one principle of reason by which the moon waxes and wanes in equal intervals, both as it increases and diminishes in illumination; the seven lambs because it receives the perfect shapes in periods of seven days—the half-moon in the first seven day period after its conjunction with the sun, full moon in the second; and when it makes its return again, the first is to half-moon, then it ceases at its conjunction with the sun.” [All emphasis supplied by author/complier of this study.]The half-moon (first quarter moon) announces the first Sabbath of the month. It is the seventh day of the week, naturally, but this is the 8th day of the month. New moon day is not counted against the week. The full moon rising at the end of the 14th day of the month announces the 15th as the second Sabbath of the month. If the new moon was counted, the quarter phases (or as Philo describes them, the moon as it perfects in its own configurations on each seventh day) would not come at the end of the week, disconnecting the perfection of the lunar cycle from the Sabbath.


Talk about a huge extrapolation and twisting of what was written. All he is saying is that the moon waxes and wanes in seven day intervals, that it is half after its first seven day period and full after its second seven day period. There is no linking of the week at all here. This is really grasping for straws.

I do love how the document points out lines like this from Philo, and lines that they can twist to meet their goal, but fail to point out the line that speaks of a weekly Sabbath in blunt and straight forward terms.

Moving on.

Document wrote:
Philo gives a second witness in On Mating with the Preliminary Studies, XIX (102)…“For it is said in the Scripture: On the tenth day of this month let each of them take a sheep according to his house; in order that from the tenth, there may be consecrated to the tenth, that is to Elohim, the sacrifices which have been preserved in the soul, which is illuminated in two portions out of the three, until it is entirely changed in every part, and becomes a heavenly brilliancy like a full moon, at the height of its increase at the end of the second week”. Please let what Philo just said sink in. His readers in those days understood that the weeks were by the moon, same as in Scripture, and that at the end of the second week there would be a full moon. This statement needs no interpretation and is impossible to misunderstand. The sacred seventh day of the week, which comes at the end of the second week of each month, is a full moon abbath (Psalms 81:3-6). People would like for us to believe that the months were originally by the moon but the weeks were not. Philo was making a simple observation of how a person can be spiritually illuminated to a full brilliance just like a full moon at the height of its increase at the end of the second week. Friend, is there a Sabbath at the end of that second week?


I will state a line of logic that I think most here would agree with. Since we have a quote from Philo which is unequivocal in stating that the Jews of his day kept a weekly Sabbath, then a reasonable interpretation of any quote which appears to contradict the unequivocal statement should be consider more likely than an interpretation that contradicts the unequivocal statement.

So in that light let’s see if we can reconcile this quote with the unequivocal one in a reasonable way shall we. If the statement "needs no interpretation", then why provide one?

Now ask yourself this. Why did Philo say at the end of the second "week" (shabua) instead of at the end of the second sabbath (shabat)? Lunar Sabbath proponents pay no attention to the different Hebrew terms. Weeks are not only descriptive of the calendar week, but of any consecutive number of seven days, things, or even years. Here are some examples.

For the lunar Sabbath proponent to score a point here, they must also believe that Jewish women only give birth on the Sabbath! Please pardon my use of standard English translations, I checked the pertinent words, but I do not have time to amplify these verse right now.

"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." - Leviticus 12:5

So as you can see, their ship is already sunk and at the bottom of the sea, but there is more.

"In the first, in the fourteenth day of the moon, you shall have the passover, a feast for a week of days; unleavened bread shall be eaten." - Ezekiel 45:21

So here we have a week of days, as opposed to a week of weeks, or a week of years. Stating this way allows for the feast to begin on any day of the calendar week.

"I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled, and in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel;" - Daniel 10:3-4

Apparently three whole weeks ends on the 24th day of the moon and not the 21st or 22nd.

This can only be true if "weeks" can refer to any consecutive 7 days without any relationship to the lunar cycle. So when Philo says the end of the second week, he is saying nothing different than 14 days after the new moon appeared.

While I am sure I could go through the rest of the document and show it errant, I feel I have provided more than enough information and evidence that the author of the document has no credibility, and that the evidence is overwhelmingly in support of a weekly Sabbath, both Scriptural and historical. So since I have better things to do, and their flawed reasoning makes my head spin, I will leave it at that for now. If there is a piece of evidence you find to be particularly strong feel free to share it, and I will examine it.

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline lassie1865  
#25 Posted : Friday, July 22, 2011 5:36:54 PM(UTC)
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Yes, I see what you mean. They make it sound as if every "week" must end in a 7th day Sabbath.
Offline Yah Tselem  
#26 Posted : Saturday, July 23, 2011 6:24:05 AM(UTC)
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As far as "all the fuss about Sunday worship".. it's a good point to bring up. I think that which day of the week one observes is not what is (as) important, but rather the idea of observing what it means - that is important. For me, I think it should be Friday sunset to Saturday sunset, so that's what I observe. I don't fault Christians for Sunday vs Saturday as much as that they don't know Yah, they don't know what Sabbath means, they don't know that they're not to "worship" or "bow down" in the first place. Why does it matter what day they observe it when they don't know what it means, about 6+1, the timeline, the resting, etc etc. Sun-day is a small part of it - the bigger picture is Sun-god - who cares about the day - they got the wrong god!
As for your question about "worship", there is a good thread about that at http://forum.yadayahweh.....aspx?g=posts&t=2076
Offline Walt  
#27 Posted : Saturday, July 23, 2011 6:38:47 AM(UTC)
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lassie1865 wrote:
These are all very good points you bring up. But then, what is all the fuss about "Sunday worship"? Sunday is just as good a day as any.


My issue with the christian Sunday worship is that it is a replacement of Sabbath - they say Sabbath was done away with and replaced with Sunday worship
Offline cgb2  
#28 Posted : Saturday, August 6, 2011 7:24:50 AM(UTC)
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Note the distinctive break in Leviticus in first presenting sabbath as every 7th day, then reckoning the 7 miqra as related to the moon.

Lev 23:1 And יהוה spoke to Mosheh, saying,
Lev 23:2 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, and say to them, ‘The appointed times of יהוה, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these:
Lev 23:3 ‘Six days work is done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a set-apart gathering. You do no work, it is a Sabbath to יהוה in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 ‘These are the appointed times of יהוה, set-apart gatherings which you are to proclaim at their appointed times.
Lev 23:5 ‘In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between the evenings, is the Passover to יהוה.
Lev 23:6 ‘And on the fifteenth day of this month is the Festival of Unleavened Bread to יהוה – seven days you eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 ‘On the first day you have a set-apart gathering, you do no servile work.
Lev 23:8 ‘And you shall bring an offering made by fire to יהוה for seven days. On the seventh day is a set-apart gathering, you do no servile work.’ ”
Lev 23:9 And יהוה spoke to Mosheh, saying,
Lev 23:10 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, and you shall say to them, ‘When you come into the land which I give you, and shall reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the first-fruits of your harvest to the priest.
Lev 23:11 ‘And he shall wave the sheaf before יהוה, for your acceptance. On the morrow after the Sabbath the priest waves it.
Lev 23:12 ‘And on that day when you wave the sheaf, you shall prepare a male lamb a year old, a perfect one, as a burnt offering to יהוה,
Lev 23:13 and its grain offering: two-tenths of an ĕphah of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering made by fire to יהוה, a sweet fragrance, and its drink offering: one-fourth of a hin of wine.
Lev 23:14 ‘And you do not eat bread or roasted grain or fresh grain until the same day that you have brought an offering to your Elohim – a law forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:15 ‘And from the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, you shall count for yourselves: seven completed Sabbaths.
Lev 23:16 ‘Until the morrow after the seventh Sabbath you count fifty days, then you shall bring a new grain offering to יהוה.
Lev 23:17 ‘Bring from your dwellings for a wave offering two loaves of bread, of two-tenths of an ĕphah of fine flour they are, baked with leaven, first-fruits to יהוה.
Lev 23:18 ‘And besides the bread, you shall bring seven lambs a year old, perfect ones, and one young bull and two rams. They are a burnt offering to יהוה, with their grain offering and their drink offerings, an offering made by fire for a sweet fragrance to יהוה.
Lev 23:19 ‘And you shall offer one male goat as a sin offering, and two male lambs a year old, as a peace offering.
Lev 23:20 ‘And the priest shall wave them, besides the bread of the first-fruits, as a wave offering before יהוה, besides the two lambs. They are set-apart to יהוה for the priest.
Lev 23:21 ‘And on this same day you shall proclaim a set-apart gathering for yourselves, you do no servile work on it – a law forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
Lev 23:22 ‘And when you reap the harvest of your land do not completely reap the corners of your field when you reap, and do not gather any gleaning from your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the stranger. I am יהוה your Elohim.’ ”
Lev 23:23 And יהוה spoke to Mosheh, saying,
Lev 23:24 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, saying, ‘In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you have a rest, a remembrance of blowing of trumpets, a set-apart gathering.
Lev 23:25 ‘You do no servile work, and you shall bring an offering made by fire to יהוה.’ ”
Lev 23:26 And יהוה spoke to Mosheh, saying,
Lev 23:27 “On the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. It shall be a set-apart gathering for you. And you shall afflict your beings, and shall bring an offering made by fire to יהוה.
Lev 23:28 “And you do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before יהוה your Elohim.
Lev 23:29 “For any being who is not afflicted on that same day, he shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 23:30 “And any being who does any work on that same day, that being I shall destroy from the midst of his people.
Lev 23:31 “You do no work – a law forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:32 ‘It is a Sabbath of rest to you, and you shall afflict your beings. On the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you observe your Sabbath.”
Lev 23:33 And יהוה spoke to Mosheh, saying,
Lev 23:34 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, saying, ‘On the fifteenth day of this seventh month is the Festival of Booths for seven days to יהוה.
Lev 23:35 ‘On the first day is a set-apart gathering, you do no servile work.
Lev 23:36 ‘For seven days you bring an offering made by fire to יהוה. On the eighth day there shall be a set-apart gathering for you, and you shall bring an offering made by fire to יהוה. It is a closing festival, you do no servile work.
Lev 23:37 ‘These are the appointed times of יהוה which you proclaim as set-apart gatherings, to bring an offering made by fire to יהוה, a burnt offering and a grain offering, a slaughtering and drink offerings, as commanded for every day –
Lev 23:38 besides the Sabbaths of יהוה, and besides your gifts, and besides all your vows, and besides all your voluntary offerings which you give to יהוה.
Lev 23:39 ‘On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you gather in the fruit of the land, observe the festival of יהוה for seven days. On the first day is a rest, and on the eighth day a rest.
Lev 23:40 ‘And you shall take for yourselves on the first day the fruit of good trees, branches of palm trees, twigs of leafy trees, and willows of the stream, and shall rejoice before יהוה your Elohim for seven days.
Lev 23:41 ‘And you shall observe it as a festival to יהוה for seven days in the year – a law forever in your generations. Observe it in the seventh month.
Lev 23:42 ‘Dwell in booths for seven days; all who are native Yisra’ĕlites dwell in booths,
Lev 23:43 so that your generations know that I made the children of Yisra’ĕl dwell in booths when I brought them out of the land of Mitsrayim. I am יהוה your Elohim.’ ”
Lev 23:44 Thus did Mosheh speak of the appointed times of יהוה to the children of Yisra’ĕl.
Offline RidesWithYah  
#29 Posted : Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:16:24 AM(UTC)
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On the argument that the Exodus, on the 15th, "must have been" on a Sabbath.
I would think it must NOT have been on a Sabbath.
Otherwise, why would Messiah have said,
"
Quote:
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
"(Mt 24:20)
Offline FredSnell  
#30 Posted : Sunday, August 7, 2011 4:42:35 AM(UTC)
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1 Kings
18:17 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw EliYah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel?
18:18 And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of YHWH, and thou hast followed Baalim.
18:19 Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table.
18:20 So Ahab sent unto all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel.
18:21 And EliYah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if YHWH be Elohim, follow him: but if the Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
****************
Offline FredSnell  
#31 Posted : Sunday, August 7, 2011 5:16:08 AM(UTC)
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Deuteronomy
12:28 Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of YHWH thy Elohim.
12:29 When YHWH thy Elohim shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;
12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their elohim, saying, How did these nations serve their elohim? even so will I do likewise.
12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto YHWH thy Elohim: for every abomination to YHWH, which he hateth, have they done unto their elohim; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their elohim.
12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
*******************

Offline will brinson: ferguson  
#32 Posted : Sunday, August 28, 2011 12:16:46 AM(UTC)
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Troy (@ CreationCalendar.com) always said if anyone could find a Scripture verse where a Shabbath did not land on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29 he would stop teaching Lunar Shabbawth Theory. Well according to the following verses of Scripture there was a Shabbawth on the 23rd of the second month of the year.


{Shemoth [Exodus] 16:1}
And they set out from Ayleem, and all the Congregation of the children of Yishra-Ail came to the Wilderness of Sin, which is between Ayleem and Seenahee, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their going out of the land of Mitsrahyim .

{Shemoth [Exodus] 16:2-13}
Exo 16:2 And all the congregation of the children of Yishra-Ail grumbled against Moshay and Aharone in the wilderness.
Exo 16:3 And the children of Yishra-Ail said to them, “If only we had died by the hand of יהוה in the land of Mitsrahyim , when we sat by the pots of meat and when we ate bread to satisfaction! For you have brought us out into this wilderness to put all this Assembly to death with hunger.”
Exo 16:4 And יהוה said to Moshay, “See, I am raining bread from the heavens for you. And the people shall go out and gather a day’ portion every day, in order to try them, whether they walk in My Torah or not.
Exo 16:5 “And it shall be on the sixth day that they shall prepare what they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.”
Exo 16:6 And Moshay and Aharone said to all the children of Yishra-Ail, “At evening you shall know that יהוה has brought you out of the land of Mitsrahyim.
Exo 16:7 “And in the morning you shall see the esteem of יהוה, for He hears your grumblings against יהוה. And what are we, that you grumble against us?”
Exo 16:8 And Moshay said, “In that יהוה gives you meat to eat in the evening, and in the morning bread to satisfaction, for יהוה hears your grumblings which you make against Him. And what are we? Your grumblings are not against us but against יהוה.”
Exo 16:9 And Moshay said to Aharone, “Say to all the Congregation of the children of Yishra-Ail, ‘Come near before יהוה, for He has heard your grumblings.’ ”
Exo 16:10 And it came to be, as Aharone spoke to all the Congregation of the children of Yishra-Ail, that they looked toward the wilderness and see, the esteem of יהוה appeared in the cloud.
Exo 16:11 And יהוה spoke to Moshay, saying,
Exo 16:12 “I have heard the grumblings of the children of Yishra-Ail. Speak to them, saying, ‘Between the evenings you are to eat meat, and in the morning you are to be satisfied with bread. And you shall know that I am יהוה your Ailoheem.’ ”
Exo 16:13 And it came to be that quails came up at evening and covered the camp, and in the morning the dew lay all around the camp.

They (Yishra-Ail) arrived at “the Wilderness of Sin” on the 15th DAY (which Troy claims to be the daylight portion of 24 hrs). Then the next morning (which according to Troy' reckoning would be the sixteenth DAY of the month is when the manna would start to appear in the morning [sun-up]). Troy says a day starts at sun rise and manna was to appear six days and the next day (the seventh Day) was to be the Shabbawth. Well count 7 days starting the morning after the fifteenth (i.e. - the sixteenth) and you get the 23rd, not the 22nd day of the month. He can not say that the count was to start on the fifteenth because Yahuwah on the 15th day said that the manna was not to fall until the morning.

But Troy always said that every thing should be proven by the testimony of two witnesses, so here is another Scripture that shows that a Shabbawth did not fall on either the 8th, 15th, 22nd, or the 29.

{Bemidbar [Numbers] 10:11}
And it came to pass on the twentieth day of the second month, in the second year, that the cloud was taken up from off the tabernacle of the testimony.

{Bemidbar [Numbers] 10:11}
And they departed from the mount of Yahuwah three days' journey: and the Ark of the Covenant of Yahuwah went before them in the three days' journey, to search out a resting place for them.

These Scripture verses show that the Shabbawth would have landed on the 26th or 27th, but not the 29thDAY of the month. This is a second witness that not all RESTS took place on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th whereby destroying the Lunar Shabbawth Theory.

I will admit that many of the Scriptures seem to support such a THEORY, but in the presence of these two Scriptures the Lunar Shabbawth THEORY can not stand, awmane(?). It is also a given if these Shabbawths did not fall on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th then the ones which came before and the ones following did not either.

P.S. - When a man or woman are honestly mistaken and hears the truth, they will either stop being mistaken or cease to be honest.

will brinson: ferguson


The following was written by, Eliyahu @ http://www.eliyah.com/lunarsabbath.html


Historical Data

Historical information can be helpful if we are trying to discern the truth of something that doesn't seem very clear to us from Scripture. Although I believe the scriptures speak clearly about the seventh day Shabbawth always occurring every seventh day, referencing historical works may be helpful for some who are not yet convinced.

Lunar Shabbawth keepers love to quote from a few Encyclopedic references which say that the week was originally tied to the lunar cycle. If we rely on such Encyclopedias to tell us about historical data, we might indeed wonder if the moon had something to do with setting the weeks.

But the truth is, most of those references are very old and are relying theories that have their basis in the idea that the bible was not authored and inspired by Yahuwah.

Rather, such articles are usually written by people who have the same historical data we do, but they generally don't even believe in the Scriptures, and view Yahuwah to be just another one of those "tribal war ailoheem." Because they don't believe in the Scriptures, they make statements like the Shabbawth was originally tied to the moon. This is due to an assumption that the children of Yishra-Ail picked up Shabbawth keeping from being in Babylon, or some other pagan culture that may have used the moon in setting monthly observances.

When researching this topic historically, we don't need to go any further in history than the time period that Yahu-Shuah The Anointed One was born into. We do know that He kept the Shabbawth day and we know that He kept it on the same day as the rest of the Yahu-Deem[Jews] in His day. For example:

Luke 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Shabbawth day, and stood up to read.

The first century disciples also did the same:

Acts 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Shabbawths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

So, for me the question is whether or not there are any first century eyewitnesses that may enlighten us as to whether the Yahu-Deem of that time kept the Shabbawth by the moon, or by a recurring seven day week.

Can we find a clear answer to this question? Absolutely.

To find a clear answer to this question, we will examine the Talmud, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Josephus and various Roman Historians and writers of that period.

1. The Talmud

First of all, please understand that I do not believe in following the Talmud or looking at it as being authoritative for doctrine

I'm not going to be using it for the purposes of telling me how or when to keep the Shabbawth, except that I know the Anointed One was in agreement with the weekly Shabbawth of 1st century Yahu-Daism [Judaism]. Therefore, we will only use the Talmud to help us understand what views of 1st and 2nd century Yahu-Daism actually were.

The Talmud is a pretty good source because although it was compiled about 130 years after the destruction of the temple and Yerushalayim, parts of it act as a historical reference for things that were going on when the temple was still standing.

The Talmud is composed of three parts. There is the Mishnah, which is the central focal point of the whole Talmud. There is the Gemara, which is a commentary on the Mishnah. Then there is Rashi's commentary on both.

The Mishnah simply records the beliefs of 1st century Yahu-Daism. It speaks often about the views of two Yahu-Dish[Jewish] scholars called Shammai and Hillel. They were leaders of two (often opposing) schools of thought, called "houses." Hillel and Shammai lived from c. 50 BCE to 50 CE so they were alive during Yahu-Shuah' ministry on the earth.

The Talmud records some 300+ differences of opinion between both houses. In Yahu-Daism, the views of the house of Hillel (Beth Hillel) usually prevailed over the views of the house of Shammai (Beth Shammai).

As you will see, the Talmud is pretty clear that the Lunar Shabbawth was not observed by Beth Hillel, Beth Shammai, or any Yahu-Dish man living in the first century.

In our first example, we will examine a difference of opinion between Hillel and Shammai on what blessing needed to be recited if the "new moon falls on a Shabbawth."

"R. Zera replied: The New Moon is different from a festival - Since its mention is included in the benediction on the sanctity of the day in the morning and evening prayers it is also included in that of the additional prayer. But do Beth Shammai uphold the view that the mention of the New Moon is to be included? Was it not in fact taught: If a New Moon falls on a Shabbawth, Beth Shammai ruled: One recites in his additional prayer eight benedictions and Beth Hillel ruled: Seven? This is indeed a difficulty." Talmud - Mas. Eiruvin 40b

Of course, if they were keeping the Lunar Shabbawth, the New Moon can never fall on a Shabbawth because the Lunar Shabbawth is never on the first day of the month. This difference of opinion wouldn't have been recorded if they kept the Lunar Shabbawth.

Next, we will see that the Mishnah records what the first century temple priests did with the non-meat portions of the Passover Lamb:

"Mishnah. The bones, and the sinews, and the nothar of the paschal lamb are to be burnt on the sixteenth. If the sixteenth falls on the Shabbawth, they are to be burnt on the seventeenth, because they do not override either the Shabbawth or the festival." Talmud - Pesachim 83a

With the Lunar Shabbawth, there is no such thing as the sixteenth day of the month falling on the Shabbawth. These are not men who are trying to figure out how to fit a weekly Shabbawth into Babylonian life, it is a reference to the acts of first century priests who certainly did not keep the Lunar Shabbawth. These are the practices observed during the temple era when Yahu-Shuah and His disciples lived.

The Mishnah also recorded the following rule regarding the meal offerings:

"Mishnah. A man may offer a meal-offering consisting of sixty tenths and bring them in one vessel if a man said, I take upon myself to offer sixty tenths, he may bring them in one vessel. But if he said, I take upon myself to offer sixty-one tenths, he must bring sixty in one vessel and the one in another vessel; for since the congregation bring on the first day of the feast of tabernacles when it falls on a Shabbawth sixty-one tenths as a meal-offering, it is enough for an individual that his meal-offering be less by one tenth than that of the Congregation." Talmud - Menachoth 103b

Obviously, this is a record of what went on while the temple was still standing because after that time, there would be no place to take it. With a Lunar Shabbawth, there is never a time when the first day of the feast of Tabernacles falls on any day other than the Shabbawth (15th day of the seventh month).

Obviously, the recorded practices of first century Yahu-Daism while the temple still stood indicate that they did not keep a Lunar Shabbawth. They kept the Shabbawth on a recurring, seven day week just as it is given in Genesis chapter 1, independent of the moon cycle. Therefore, since Yahu-Shuah kept the Shabbawth along with the rest of the Yahu-Deem of that period, He did not participate in a Lunar Shabbawth, a doctrine that doesn't appear to exist in Yahu-Daism at that time.

I should also mention that if you ever read the Talmud in depth, you will come away with one clear impression: They debated about almost everything. Something as major as a change in when the Shabbawth is observed ought to have been at least debated somewhere. After all, they debated every little fine point of the law! The lack of such a debate speaks volumes.

2. The Dead Sea Scrolls and Josephus

The Dead Sea Scrolls are considered by scholars to be authored by the Essenes, a sect in first century Yahu-Daism. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are a number of extra-biblical scrolls which appear to shed light on what this sect believed and practiced. Understanding what they believed can be helpful in determining whether or not the Lunar Shabbawth was being observed by mainstream Yahu-Daism of that time.

It is generally undisputed (even by Lunar Sabbatarians) that the authors of these scrolls did not keep a Lunar Shabbawth. Rather, the Calendrical scroll shows that they observed a recurring seven day weekly cycle, independent of the moon phases. I know of no one who disputes this. The Calendrical Scroll and the Songs of the Shabbawth Sacrifice confirms this.

Of course, Lunar Sabbatarians generally will teach that this Yahu-Dish sect was wrong about the Shabbawth.

But in the book of Josephus, he speaks much about the Essenes. Josephus was a first century Yahu-Dish historian who wrote much about life in Yahu-Dea during the first century. He goes into great detail as to how practices of the Essenes were different than others. He mentions everything from how the Essenes don't carry anything with them when they travel, to how they regard oil to be defilement. In Wars of the Jews 2:119-161, Josephus speaks of them in no less than 2000 words, describing over 100 characteristics of their way of life.

So did Josephus mention that they kept the Shabbawth on a day that was different than the rest of Yahu-Daism?

Wars of the Jews 2:147 ... Moreover, they are stricter than any other of the Yahu-Deem in resting from their labors on the seventh day; for they not only get their food ready the day before, that they may not be obliged to kindle a fire on that day, but they will not move any vessel out of its place, nor go to stool thereon.

In this, Josephus even goes so far as to say that the Essenes are "stricter than any other of the Yahu-Deem in resting from their labors on the seventh day." Does it sound like there was any disagreement as to when the Shabbawth was? Wouldn't it seem strange that Josephus would mention that the Essenes were stricter in their resting from labors on the Shabbawth but not bother to mention that the Essenes held the Shabbawth on a totally different day than the other Yahu-Deem of that period?

The fact is, if the Essenes were keeping a different day than the rest of Yahu-Daism, Josephus wouldn't have been able to say that they were even resting on the seventh day to begin with. He would have to say they were typically resting on some other day.

There is no record in the Dead Sea Scrolls of the Essenes disagreeing with other groups as to when the Shabbawth was. In fact, there is no historical record of any Yahu-Dish sects disagreeing with each other on when the Shabbawth was.

In another interesting note, Josephus speaks of one of the large towers that were built in Yerushalayim:

Wars of the Yahu-Deem 4:582 and the last was erected above the top of the Pastophoria, where one of the priests stood of course, and gave a signal beforehand with a trumpet, at the beginning of every seventh day, in the evening twilight, as also at the evening when that day was finished, as giving notice to the people when they were to stop work, and when they were to go to work again.

So his report is that a trumpet was blown at the beginning of every seventh day, to mark when the people should stop working, and begin working. As an interesting side note, archaeological finds concur with Josephus' comments about the place of trumpeting:

"When we excavated the beautifully paved Herodian street adjacent to the southern wall and near the southwestern corner of the Enclosure Wall, we found a particularly large ashlar block. On the inside was a niche where a man might stand, especially if the ashlar were joined to another which would enlarge the niche.
On the outside was a carefully and elegantly incised Hebrew inscription: LBYT HTKY ’H LHH [RYZ]; “To the place of Trumpeting to (declare).” If the restoration of the world “declare” is correct, the rest of the missing part of the inscription probably went on to tell us more about the declaring of the beginning and the end of the Shabbawth.
The stone had been toppled during the Roman destruction of the Temple onto the street below where it had lain for nearly two thousand years until we uncovered it.
It must have originally come from the pinnacle of the southwestern corner of the Temple Mount. From a spot on top of the Temple chambers a priest would blow a trumpet on Shabbawth Eve, to announce the arrival of the Shabbawth and the cessation of all labor, and to announce, on the following evening, the departure of the Shabbawth and the resumption of all labor.
The entire city was visible from this spot on the southwest corner of the Temple Mount; the clarion call of the trumpet would reach the farthest markets of the city. Such a scene is recounted by Josephus in his work, The Jewish War. (IV, 582)." Editor, H. S. 2004; 2004. BAR 06:04 (July/Aug 1980). Biblical Archaeology Society

Josephus also records that Agatharchides, a 2nd century BCE Greek Historian, wrote something quite interesting about Ptolemy's defeat of Yerushalayim:

Against Apion 1:208 "When Agatharchides had premised this story, and had jested upon Stratonice for her superstition, he gives a like example of what was reported concerning us, and writes thus:--
209 ``There are a people called Yahu-Deem, and dwell in a city the strongest of all other cities, which the inhabitants call Yerushalayim, and are accustomed to rest on every seventh day; on which times they make no use of their arms, nor meddle with husbandry, nor take care of any affairs of life, but spread out their hands in their holy places, and pray till the evening.
210 Now it came to pass, that when Ptolemy, the son of Lagus, came into this city with his army, that these men, in observing this mad custom of theirs, instead of guarding the city, suffered their country to submit itself to a bitter lord; and their law was openly proven to have commanded a foolish practice"

Ptolemy was the General of Alexander the Great, who took over Yerushalayim in 332 BCE. We see that the Yahu-Deem would not defend themselves or take up arms on the Shabbawth, which was "every seventh day."

If I were to describe the Shabbawth keeping practices of Lunar Sabbatarians, I certainly wouldn't describe their Shabbawth keeping as something they did "every seventh day." Rather, I would mention that they only keep a Shabbawth on certain days of the month. Therefore, it's quite evident that Josephus was describing the practice laid out for us "in the beginning" when Ailoheem created the first week and that is to rest every seventh day, without moon interruptions.

3. Roman Historians and Writers

There seems to be a trend among Lunar Shabbawth keepers to refer to people like me who keep a recurring weekly Shabbawth as "Satyr-day keepers" -- as if we are following the a pagan Roman week rather than the week that they believe to be in the Scriptures.

The truth is that Yahu-Deem didn't want the holy Shabbawth to be associated with "Saturn," an idol that had nothing to do with Yahu-Daism. The name "Saturday/Day of Saturn" originated with the pagans, not with the Yahu-Deem. The Yahu-Deem repeatedly and unequivocally refer to the seventh day of the week as "the Shabbawth."

However, when it comes to determining whether or not the Yahu-Deem of the first century kept the Shabbawth using the Lunar Shabbawth or, as I believe, a recurring weekly Shabbawth, examining the records of Roman historians and other writers can be helpful. By the admission of Lunar Shabbawth keepers, and clear historical record, the Romans did not follow the moon phases when determining the weeks, or even the months for that matter.

For this reason, we can look into the writings of Roman historians and other writers to see if the Romans associated the Yahu-Dish Shabbawth with their "Saturday/Day of Saturn." If they did associate the Shabbawth with their Day of Saturn in the first century or before, this would be undeniable evidence that the Yahu-Dish week and the Roman week were both kept on the same recurring weekly cycle.

As we will see in this section, there is no doubt that Roman historians and other writers explicitly and repeatedly consider the timing of Yahu-Dish Shabbawth keeping to be linked with the seventh day of the Roman week, which was a repeating seven day cycle, independent of the moon phases.

70 - 84 CE (AD)

Frontinus, a Roman Soldier who lived from c. 40 CE to 103 CE, wrote book on military strategy called Strategematicon in 84 A.D. In it, he writes:

"The deified Augustus Vespasian attacked the Yahu-Deem on the day of Saturn, a day on which it is sinful for them to do any business." Frontinus Stratagem 2.1.17.

The original Latin version of this book has "Saturnis" for Saturn, confirming that the Romans associated the Shabbawth day with their "day of Saturn" which is on the seventh day of the week.

Since this book was written a mere 14 years after Vespasian's (Titus') destruction of Yerushalayim, this is this is obviously very strong historical evidence directly from a first century eyewitness, tying in the Shabbawth with the recurring seven day cycle of the Romans.

63 BCE - 229 CE

Cassius Dio, a Roman Historian who lived from ca. 155 to 229 CE, using the historical annals of the Roman empire, wrote about 3 battles which the Roman empire had with the Yahu-Deem.

The first battle was during a time when the Hyrcanus II and Aristobulus II, two brothers who were the offspring of the Maccabees, were engaged in a dispute over who would rule. The Romans, through the actions of Pompey, came in and settled the dispute, siding with Hyrcanus. While speaking of Pompey's battle, the Shabbawth is mentioned.

The setting is 63 BCE:

"Most of the city, to be sure, he took without any trouble, as he was received by the party of Hyrcanus; but the temple itself, which the other party had occupied, he captured only with difficulty.
For it was on high ground and was fortified by a wall of its own, and if they had continued defending it on all days alike, he could not have got possession of it.
As it was, they made an excavation of what are called the days of Saturn, and by doing no work at all on those days afforded the Romans an opportunity in this interval to batter down the wall.
The latter, on learning of this superstitious awe of theirs, made no serious attempts the rest of the time, but on those days, when they came round in succession, assaulted most vigorously.
Thus the defenders were captured on the day of Saturn, without making any defense, and all the wealth was plundered.
The kingdom was given to Hyrcanus, and Aristobulus was carried away." Cassius Dio Roman History 37.16.1-4

So the Romans took advantage of the fact that the Yahu-Deem would not work on the Shabbawth. When was the Shabbawth? Again, the weekly Shabbawth coincides with the Roman "days of Saturn."

The second battle listed by Cassius Dio occurred in 36 BCE, is the one that resulted in the very first King Herod coming to power:

"The Yahu-Deem, indeed, had done much injury to the Romans, but they suffered far more themselves.
The first of them to be captured were those who were fighting for the precinct of their Ail, and then the rest on the day even then called the day of Saturn.
And so excessive were they in their devotion to religion that the first set of prisoners, those who had been captured along with the temple, obtained leave from Sosius, when the day of Saturn came round again, and went up into the temple and there performed all the customary rites, together with the rest of the people.
These people Antony entrusted to a certain Herod to govern; but Antigonus he bound to a cross and flogged,— a punishment no other king had suffered at the hands of the Romans,— and afterwards slew him." Cassius Dio Roman History 49.22.4-6
Note that Cassius Dio reports the Yahu-Deem as keeping "customary rites" at the temple on "the day even then called Day of Saturn." This indicates that the Shabbawth wasn't only called the "Day of Saturn" during his lifetime, but it was called the "Day of Saturn" back in 36 BCE, well before Yahu-Shuah was born in Bethlehem.
Next, he records that the 70 CE Yerushalayim destruction was on the Shabbawth, which he once again calls the "day of Saturn:"

70 - 229 CE

Thus was Yerushalayim destroyed on the very day of Saturn, the day which even now the Yahu-Deem reverence most.
From that time forth it was ordered that the Yahu-Deem who continued to observe their ancestral customs should pay an annual tribute of two denarii to Jupiter Capitoline.
In consequence of this success both generals received the title of imperator, but neither got that of Yahu-Daïcus, although all the other honors that were fitting on the occasion of so magnificent a victory, including triumphal arches, were voted to them. Cassius Dio Roman History 65.7.2
So his report is that the Yahu-Deem kept the Shabbawth on the "day of Saturn" from 63 BCE up until his day, no later than 229 CE. His report also agrees with Frontinus' account of the 70 CE battle.
c. 100 CE

The Historian Cornelius Tacitus (ca. 56CE – ca. 117CE), after suggesting that Yahu-Deem kept the Shabbawth out of laziness, also associated the Shabbawth with the Roman idol, Saturn:

They are said to have devoted the seventh day to rest, because that day brought an end to their troubles. Later, finding idleness alluring, they gave up the seventh year as well to sloth.
Others maintain that they do this in honor of Saturn; either because their religious principles are derived from the Idaei, who are supposed to have been driven out with Saturn and become the ancestors of the Yahu-Dish people; or else because, of the seven constellations which govern the lives of men, the star of Saturn moves in the topmost orbit and exercises peculiar influence, and also because most of the heavenly bodies move round their courses in multiples of seven. From The Histories, Book V

Again, the fact that a pagan associated Shabbawth keeping with Saturn demonstrates that the Roman week's day of Saturn (Satur-day) was concurrent with what Yahuwah calls the Shabbawth day. Tacitus is an eyewitness from the first century who has no "axe to grind" in regards to when the Shabbawth should be observed. He wrote this a mere 30 years after the destruction of the temple in Yerushalayim.

28 BCE to 1 BCE

Tibullus, a Latin Poet who lived from 54 BCE - 19 BCE, references the Shabbawth in one of his Elegies. The Poet is quoted by J. Hugh Michael in his paper entitled "The Yahu-Dish Sabbath in the Latin Classical Writers." In this Journal article, he says:

"Tibullus, again, gives us a glimpse of the influence of the Shabbawwth on the Romans. The Poet, sick in a foreign land, complains of his loneliness; neither mother nor sister has he there to nurse him; nor is Delia with him--she who had inquired of all the ailoheem before permitting him to leave the city. Says Tibillus:

All promised a return; yet did nothing stay her from looking back in tears and terror on my journey. Yea, even I her comforter, after I had given my parting charge, sought still in my disquiet for reasons to linger and delay. Either birds or words of evil omen were my pretexts, or there was the holy day of Saturn to detain me. (Book I, Eleg. iii 13-18 in Postgate's translation in the Loeb Classics.)

The day of which the poet speaks is of course the Saturday, or, as Postgate puts it, "the Yahu-Dish Shabbawth, on which no work was to be undertaken," and the implication is clear that unwillingness to set off on a journey on the Shabbawth day was no unusual thing among the inhabitants of Rome, for Tibullus is enumerating the common reasons for the postponement of journeys of which he was only too ready to avail himself." The Yahu-Dish Shabbawth in the Latin Classical Writers. J. Hugh Michael Victoria College, Toronto, Canada. The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. 40, No. 2. (Jan., 1924), pp. 117-124.

It is interesting that Roman's would have any concern at all about traveling on the Shabbawth. J. Hugh Michael references another writing by the Poet Ovid, who lived from 43 BCE to 17 CE:

Still more impressive is the witness of Ovid. In the Ars Amatoria he instructs the young Roman who is desirous of finding an object for his affections how he should set about his search.
The quest need not take him far a field: there is no lack of suitable damsels in Rome.
The poet even specifies the parts of Rome where the quest of the amorous youth is most likely to be crowned with success: he should not neglect '(Adonis lamented of Venus, or the seventh day observed as holy by the Syrian Yahu-D."
The first part of this direction can only mean that the youth should visit the Temple of Venus when her grief for Adonis was commemorated on the anniversary of his death.
Similarly the second part must mean that he should attend the Shabbawth services held in the Yahu-Dish synagogues.
Is it possible to attach any other meaning to the advice that the youth should not avoid the seventh day observed by the Syrian Yahu-D?
And what meaning is there in the counsel unless Roman maidens were wont to attend those services?
It is not easy to think that it was the poet's intention that the young Roman should become enamored of a Yahu-Dess! The Yahu-Dish Shabbawth in the Latin Classical Writers. J. Hugh Michael Victoria College, Toronto, Canada. The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. 40, No. 2. (Jan., 1924), pp. 117-124

The work that J. Hugh Michael references, Ars Amatoria, was written in approximately 1 BCE. Thus, it is evident that even the Romans were associating the seventh day of their Roman week with the Shabbawth. But was Shabbawth keeping really this tied into their culture?

119 CE

The Shabbawth does appear to be closely entwined to the weekly cycle of the first century Romans. This is evidenced by the writings of Suetonius. Suetonius (ca. 69CE - 130CE) was a Roman historian who wrote "Lives of twelve Caesars" in 119 CE. While describing the life of Tiberius Caesar (14 - 37 CE), he wrote::

"The grammarian Diogenes, who used to lecture every Shabbawth at Rhodes, would not admit Tiberius when he came to hear him on a different day, but sent a message by a common slave of his, putting him off to the seventh day. When this man waited before the Emperor's door at Rome to pay his respects, Tiberius took no further revenge than to bid him return seven years later." Suetonius The Life of Tiberius 32.2

Rhodes was a major schooling center for Roman families. It's interesting that the seventh day is referred to as the "Shabbawth" (Latin: sabbatis) in Roman literature, especially when it is written by a pagan historian who was even the Roman Emperor' secretary for a time (Wikipedia entry on Suetonius).

It appears that J. Hugh Michael's references to the Roman poets, as well as this reference from Suetonius, is a strong indication that the seventh day Shabbawth had become more tied into Roman society than most people realize. Possibly this is one of the reasons Josephus said:

"The masses have long since shown a keen desire to adopt our religious observances; and there is not one city, Greek or barbarian, nor a single nation, to which our custom of abstaining from work on the seventh day has not spread and where our fasts and the lighting of lamps and many of our prohibitions in the matter of food are not observed. Apion 2:282-283

In consideration of these things, it appears to me that the Romans picked up the recurring seven day week from the Yahu-Deem, not the...
Offline lassie1865  
#33 Posted : Monday, August 29, 2011 6:56:28 AM(UTC)
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Thank you for all that info! I am very happy to keep the present 7th Day Sabbath -- it surely would be difficult to keep it by the phases of the moon . . .

Welcome to the forum.
Offline cgb2  
#34 Posted : Monday, August 29, 2011 8:24:25 AM(UTC)
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will brinson: ferguson wrote:

P.S. - When a man or woman are honestly mistaken and hears the truth, they will either stop being mistaken or cease to be honest.


Great quote!
Offline Berean  
#35 Posted : Monday, August 29, 2011 8:55:42 AM(UTC)
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Check it out... openly and honestly. The Lunar Sabbath is truth! Check out http://www.worldslastchance.com. WorldsLastChance is, by far, the most exhaustive resource on the web for studying the true Sabbath (as far as I can tell). The current erroneous Gregorian Saturday paradigm is based on nothing more than paganism and assumption. Yahuwah's true Sabbath is being restored to His faithful in these last days - just as Isaiah prophesied (ch.58).

http://www.worldslastcha...se-of-the-lunar-sabbath-|-part-1.html

We are clearly instructed to keep THE Sabbath holy, not A Sabbath. We, of ourselves, can make nothing holy. We can only keep Holy what Yah has made holy ... THE 7th day Sabbath, based on the luni-solar calendar established at Creation (the ONLY calendar found in the entire Bible!). This is not a matter of convenience. This is a matter of truth, for which there can be no substitute! :)
Offline James  
#36 Posted : Monday, August 29, 2011 9:50:44 AM(UTC)
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Berean wrote:
Check it out... openly and honestly. The Lunar Sabbath is truth! Check out http://www.worldslastchance.com. WorldsLastChance is, by far, the most exhaustive resource on the web for studying the true Sabbath (as far as I can tell). The current erroneous Gregorian Saturday paradigm is based on nothing more than paganism and assumption. Yahuwah's true Sabbath is being restored to His faithful in these last days - just as Isaiah prophesied (ch.58).

http://www.worldslastcha...se-of-the-lunar-sabbath-|-part-1.html

We are clearly instructed to keep THE Sabbath holy, not A Sabbath. We, of ourselves, can make nothing holy. We can only keep Holy what Yah has made holy ... THE 7th day Sabbath, based on the luni-solar calendar established at Creation (the ONLY calendar found in the entire Bible!). This is not a matter of convenience. This is a matter of truth, for which there can be no substitute! :)

Just a suggestion, but rather than posting links to yet another site, retort the arguments already made against Lunar Sabbaths, and then point me to the link. I have been through about a dozen of these "definitive proof" for lunar sabbath sites and have disproved and refuted everyone. So read what is above, address those points, and then I will go read the site you have linked to. But until someone can address the points I have laid out above there is no reason for me to waste my time on another site that twists Scripture and evidence to justify their conclusion.

Sorry if I have a tone to my words but I can't stand links and links without argument. Address what is written first please. Don't just try to promote another site.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline cgb2  
#37 Posted : Monday, August 29, 2011 12:43:15 PM(UTC)
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James wrote:
Just a suggestion, but rather than posting links to yet another site, retort the arguments already made against Lunar Sabbaths, and then point me to the link. I have been through about a dozen of these "definitive proof" for lunar sabbath sites and have disproved and refuted everyone. So read what is above, address those points, and then I will go read the site you have linked to. But until someone can address the points I have laid out above there is no reason for me to waste my time on another site that twists Scripture and evidence to justify their conclusion.

Sorry if I have a tone to my words but I can't stand links and links without argument. Address what is written first please. Don't just try to promote another site.


Good call James. I wasted a little time on this site. Seems to be pushing EG White's books (adventist), vegan, lunar sabbath, 9 appointed times for worship...made my head swim.
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