logo
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
View
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline sirgodfrey  
#1 Posted : Monday, December 20, 2010 7:32:40 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

YAH is neither omniscient nor omnipresent.

Let's discuss.
Offline James  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, December 21, 2010 5:36:38 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
Kinda funny I have a friend who brought this exact topic up about two weeks ago, then I see someone bring it up with Yada, and now here.

Keeping it short to start with I will just state the main reasons I believe he is neither.

Omniscient: The goal of Yahushua's ordeal on Passover, and Unleavened Bread was to make it so Yah would not know our sins, therefore there is at least one thing that Yah either doesn't know, or chooses not to know. Also the verse where Yahushua describes people standing before the father, to whom he will simply say, "I never knew you."

Omnipresent: The simplest explanation for why he is not omnipresent is, omnipresent means present everywhere, at all times. Scripture makes it clear that their is at least one place, hell, that Yah can not be. Since hell is the place of separation from Yah, Yah can not be in the place of separation from himself.

Post 204 has Yada addressing this idea, and he brings up a few good points as well.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline sirgodfrey  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:00:12 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

I'm the one that brought it up with Yada. The thought that Yah is neither omniscient nor omnipresent is pretty amazing. Yada shared that if He were omnipresent, He would be the universe as opposed to the unique character who created the universe. Furthermore, if Yah were omnipresent He would be in the presence of sin, making redemption meaningless.

If one also considers the fact that Yah has yet to experience being in the presence of His children, and growing from that, then such a conclusion can be made.
Offline MadDog  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:10:15 AM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 604
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Was thanked: 19 time(s) in 13 post(s)
Omniscience and Omnipresence as per wikipedia. I've never really gave this subject much thought until YY, but Yada does make sense. My take is that he isn't omnipresent as in the case with Sodom and Gomorrah. Yahweh had to come down from heaven himself and bare witness because he just couldn't believe what was going on in those cities. And the story about the tower of Babel where Yahweh came down to see the tower and city himself. In these cases he had to see with his own eyes.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, December 21, 2010 11:39:21 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

MadDog,

I thought myself that Yah had come down to witness the atrocities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Yada contends that Yah did not come down, but sent an angel. He asked why would Yah subject Himself to Sodom?

Offline In His Name  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, December 21, 2010 1:11:20 PM(UTC)
In His Name
Joined: 9/7/2008(UTC)
Posts: 550

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
sirgodfrey wrote:
MadDog,

I thought myself that Yah had come down to witness the atrocities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Yada contends that Yah did not come down, but sent an angel. He asked why would Yah subject Himself to Sodom?



See Genesis 18 and 19 LINK
When Abraham argued for the salvation of Sodom there were 3 visitors.
When Lot protected the messengers from the Sodom crowd there were 2.
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline sirgodfrey  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, December 21, 2010 1:34:10 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

Reading it again there were only 2 men that actually went to the city.
Offline MadDog  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, December 21, 2010 4:45:02 PM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 604
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Was thanked: 19 time(s) in 13 post(s)
sirgodfrey wrote:
MadDog,

I thought myself that Yah had come down to witness the atrocities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Yada contends that Yah did not come down, but sent an angel. He asked why would Yah subject Himself to Sodom?



All I know is what was said in Genesis 18 and 19 and yeah I added Yahweh instead of "the Lord." Okay, to answer your question with another question(s). Why would Yahweh subject himself in the form of Yahshua to be executed upon a stake and sent into the place of separation? And why even bother coming down to earth at all, both in Genesis and in the time of Yahshau? Why not send an angel to take Yahshua's place after all an angel is an angel right, pure and innocent? Why would Yahweh get his hands dirty with his creation, let an angel deal with that riff raff down there, right? Oh wait, an angel isn't the judge of all the earth, so maybe the BIG GUY needed to get involved personally? Also, why did he stop short at Abraham's tent and then disappear back to heaven, why not go all the way, he was halfway there just about anyway? Why even bother chatting up Abraham and spilling the beans about Sodom and Gomorrah if Yahweh already knew the answer? Why even bother at all, just do it, it's not like Yahweh needed anyone's permission.

Why? Why? Why indeed. I can only come up with is that Yahweh wanted to interact with his creation.

According to these passages, Yahweh did see what was happening as an eye witness. Considering we are talking about Yahweh, I'm pretty sure he could go undetected much like Yahshua was able to hide from the mobs who wanted to stone him and after his resurrection be able to travel great distances in the blink of an eye.

Quote:
KJV 18:
20 And Yahweh said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before Yahweh.
33 And Yahweh went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

KJV 19:
12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of Yahweh; and Yahweh hath sent us to destroy it.


Unless you have a better translation, and I'm sure you do, the above tells me Yahweh witnessed firsthand (just like he said he would) because he was personally going to condemn Sodom and Gomorrah if the reports he was getting were true. Yahweh personally intervening in human/world events is a rare thing because "free will" is paramount. I think he was there just like he said, but not in any humanly discernible way.

Oh and here is what prompted my response to your question about omniscience (and maybe omnipresent as well) in dark red. Yahweh wasn't 100% about Sodom and Gomorrah, he therefore had to see for himself. Yada says Yahweh isn't omniscient or omnipresent, well here is a perfect example for that only if you both can accept that when Yahweh said he would go down personally he did in fact do it, but in some other form or level. Yes only two men visibly showed up, but we Yada Yahweh and lastly, Yahweh didn't subject himself to Sodom, he subjugated Sodom.

Edited by user Tuesday, December 21, 2010 6:36:12 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline James  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, December 22, 2010 4:22:57 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
Reading through an amplified translation of Genesis 18 and 19, I am inclined to agree with MadDog.

Originally Posted by: Ba' Go to Quoted Post
I will descend (yarad - go down) to see (ra’ah - inspect) if (‘ym) they pursue (bow’) and do (‘asah - prepare and produce) all of the forbidden and destructive (kalah) things that have become known (yada’) through the distressing cries (sa’aqah).‟


This seems to me to make it pretty clear that Yah is neither Omnipresent nor Omniscient. He had to descend to Sodom in order to know if what he had heard is true. So he had heard of it, through the distressing cries, but he did not know that it was true, until he inspected it for himself.

Now there were three with 'Abraham and only two with Lot, and the two with Lot were refereed to as messengers, so I would say that Yah was not with Lot. If I had to guess I would say that Yah arrived at Sodom with the messengers, inspected it, made his decision and then sent the messengers in to retrieve Lot and carry out the judgment, but to borrow from Ken i would say that's Speculation Factor 3.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Daniel  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, December 22, 2010 4:35:33 AM(UTC)
Daniel
Joined: 10/24/2010(UTC)
Posts: 694
Location: Florida

James wrote:
This seems to me to make it pretty clear that Yah is neither Omnipresent nor Omniscient.


So are silent prayers heard?
Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline sirgodfrey  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, December 22, 2010 5:29:04 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

Yes, James, MadDog, myself and Yada agree that Yah is neither omniscient nor omnipresent. What we seem to disagree is whether Yah actually went into the city or not. Yah descended and spoke to Abraham, but Scripture seems to be unclear concerning whether Yah Himself actually went into the city. It is clear that 2 angels went INTO the city.
Offline nannala  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, December 22, 2010 7:08:43 AM(UTC)
nannala
Joined: 5/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 12

He tells us, "His kids", our sins/behaviors are unseen by Him because we are covered by His Set Apart Spirit. Did He not know and see that the Israelites went after pagan gods and were punished for doing so. If He didn't know that, how did He know that? Did He not punish them for building a golden calf?
Offline Royce  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, December 22, 2010 6:57:30 PM(UTC)
Royce
Joined: 9/2/2010(UTC)
Posts: 225
Man
Location: USA

Do you all believe that Yahushua and Yahuwah are the same being or related like family members?
Offline sirgodfrey  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, December 22, 2010 7:18:54 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

Yahuwah is one. Yahushua is an extension of Yahuwah - A part of Him set-apart for a specific purpose.
Offline MadDog  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, December 22, 2010 8:56:47 PM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 604
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Was thanked: 19 time(s) in 13 post(s)
James wrote:
If I had to guess I would say that Yah arrived at Sodom with the messengers, inspected it, made his decision and then sent the messengers in to retrieve Lot and carry out the judgment, but to borrow from Ken i would say that's Speculation Factor 3.


Or maybe they visited Gomorrah first and Yahweh did his Yahweh thing and condemned it. Then sent the angels to get Lot out of Dodge. Or maybe they split up and the angels went to Sodom and Yahweh to Gomorrah.

Also, it didn't seem like the angels had any time to inspect the city anyway, since Lot practically dragged them to his house as soon as they arrived in Sodom. And to think Yahweh cast judgement upon two cities by this very, very short visit by a couple of angels who really didn't see much anyway.

sirgodfrey wrote:
What we seem to disagree is whether Yah actually went into the city or not. Yah descended and spoke to Abraham, but Scripture seems to be unclear concerning whether Yah Himself actually went into the city. It is clear that 2 angels went INTO the city.


Also, there's no telling that the two angels that Lot greeted were the same two who were at Abraham's tent. They sure didn't seem to indicate anything about just visiting his Uncle Abraham. Maybe like James said, Yahweh and his two angels had come and left already by the time Lot got to the city gates and sent two more angels to get Lot out. Hearing the buzz about strangers in the city is maybe what prompted Lot to go to the city gates to meet any more strangers who arrived too late into the night, seeming they would be in great peril if they stayed out on the streets.

The first wave of angels was a recon mission. The second wave a rescue mission. The third wave was a destroy mission.

There is also not enough info on how much time elasped from Yahweh's visit with Abraham and the two angels arriving at the Sodom city gates (also don't forget IF these angels were the same angels that visited Abraham, which could very well be that they were not the same two).

From what I remember about this story growing up, it would indicate that this story all happened within a day or two (chapters 18 and 19), however we all YY and we know what it takes to get Yahweh really, really hopping mad, especially for him to personally bear witness. Methinks this story had been unfolding for quiet a while with a time gap from Yahweh showing up with Abraham and the two angels finally showing up for the rescue mission, eventhough they still seemed to be in recon mode.

And it wasn't just Sodom, it was also Gomorrah and the surrounding towns and even some more cities in that region that needed a good inspection before Yahweh passed a death sentence. All of that based on two angels who didn't have time to tour the city Sodom and on only a one night stay locked up in a house? Hmmmm!!!!

Either way, Yahweh said he would personally see for himself and that makes it final in my book.

Edited by user Wednesday, December 22, 2010 10:20:18 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Noel  
#16 Posted : Thursday, December 23, 2010 6:37:36 AM(UTC)
Noel
Joined: 9/27/2009(UTC)
Posts: 92
Location: UK


Royce said:-
Do you all believe that Yahushua and Yahuwah are the same being or related like family members?

This is my view:-

Having for most of my life 'believed' in the trinity as christianity has it, I now view YHWH as himself and two set apart aspects of Him for particular purposes, and for particular physical purposes too. Like Yada explains ice and steam as the same as water but with different apparent phsical properties. However, they are water, and Yahuwah is one.

Over and above this, I have come to realise that mankind in his rather presumptuous assumption that he can know everything NOW, actually knows little about anything. We can't even agree on much of scientific accepted theory. We are not capable of even conceptualising the distance to even the nearest star, let alone infinity, or the size of the universe. And we shall never be so enabled whilst in this physical body. So to try and understand fully the person who invented, created, and saved the entire thing is something I frankly do not expect to understand fully until I am out of this rather old and rapidly decaying shell.

Noel

P.s.( happy ?) Nimrod's Birthday !!
Offline Daniel  
#17 Posted : Thursday, December 23, 2010 10:20:11 AM(UTC)
Daniel
Joined: 10/24/2010(UTC)
Posts: 694
Location: Florida

Noel wrote:
P.s.( happy ?) Nimrod's Birthday !!


Like I told one of my church friends: "It may be the birthday of 'christ', but it is not the MessiYah's birthday!"
Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline JamesH  
#18 Posted : Thursday, December 23, 2010 11:47:51 AM(UTC)
JamesH
Joined: 1/8/2008(UTC)
Posts: 356
Location: Fresno, CA

Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 2 post(s)
I like to respond with Happy Metanoeo. Jim
Offline cgb2  
#19 Posted : Thursday, December 23, 2010 12:32:16 PM(UTC)
cgb2
Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 689
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 18 post(s)
Royce wrote:
Do you all believe that Yahushua and Yahuwah are the same being or related like family members?


In going off both TaNaK & messianic writings, especially repeated prophecies of the Great Day of YHWH/2nd comming of Messiah being used interchangebly. I think the diminished manifestation of YHWH for both Son and Ruach seems to fit. The universe can't contain Him, nor can man look on Him and live.

But yet a tough one to be crystal clear. YaHushua said if you've seen me you've seen the father, I and the father are one, and ticked off the Pharisees by claiming to be Elohim. Also "Immanuel" includes "everlasting Father" as one description. Also note in Isaiah 40 & 53 it refers to MessiYaH as "the arm of YHWH".

I also note that "Ruach" is feminine in Hebrew and the set-apart spirit is often described with maternal aspects (comforter, instructor, etc)
Gen 1:27 And Elohim created the man in His image, in the image of Elohim He created him – male and female He created them.
The above verse not redundant, but to clarify I think.

Also note that pagan counterfiet sun-gods are usually Father/Mother/Son trinity - often 3 distinct persons in unity

Hear Oh Isreal YHWH is one.
Offline Royce  
#20 Posted : Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:30:44 PM(UTC)
Royce
Joined: 9/2/2010(UTC)
Posts: 225
Man
Location: USA

Thanks for all that took time to reply, so what is the correct translation of Yahuchanon? I always took this to mean that Yahushua or the Word and Yahuwah have always been together and Yahushua as the Word of Yahuwah is His creating hand or in Yahuwahs case he needs no hand he just speaks and the Word does.

Edited by user Saturday, December 25, 2010 7:52:05 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Royce  
#21 Posted : Friday, December 24, 2010 5:34:09 PM(UTC)
Royce
Joined: 9/2/2010(UTC)
Posts: 225
Man
Location: USA

more like Yahuwahs voice I guess
Offline max  
#22 Posted : Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:48:56 AM(UTC)
max
Joined: 12/29/2010(UTC)
Posts: 10

When, how, does Yah know when we have left Babylon (religion), walked out of the wilderness, and started walking the narrow path to Him?
Offline Noel  
#23 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:39:19 AM(UTC)
Noel
Joined: 9/27/2009(UTC)
Posts: 92
Location: UK

Because he knows the thoughts of the heart and what is the motive behind absolutely anything we do.

He can also see the end of anything in advance, being outside of time. He can see the carnival procession not just from a street corner which restricts the view to what happens to be going past you at the time, but rather the whole thing from a helicopter perspective. i.e. he can see the end and the beginning at the same time if he wants to.

Offline Noel  
#24 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 5:17:43 AM(UTC)
Noel
Joined: 9/27/2009(UTC)
Posts: 92
Location: UK

Moreover, he actually knows (even before you decide to come out of false religion), that you are going to. So the question when does he know actually does not apply, as it pre-supposes that he is in the dimension of time which he is not unless he chooses to come into it for a bit. (which of course he did, and will do again)

n
Offline Noel  
#25 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 5:24:35 AM(UTC)
Noel
Joined: 9/27/2009(UTC)
Posts: 92
Location: UK

Sorry, Max. Keep having thoughts.........

This is not to say of course that just because he knows in advance, that you don't have free will to make your own choice. You do. However, he happens to know what your choices are in advance, I think. That must be one of the reasons why his word is so full of accurate prophecy. He knows what is going to happen in advance.

n
Offline max  
#26 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 6:06:45 AM(UTC)
max
Joined: 12/29/2010(UTC)
Posts: 10

So Yah knows my choices, but not my thoughts, or feelings? I am just trying to get omniscience straight in my head. Thanks, Noel.
Offline Royce  
#27 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 6:29:14 AM(UTC)
Royce
Joined: 9/2/2010(UTC)
Posts: 225
Man
Location: USA

So you are saying we have already made whatever the choice is we will make for every decision in our lives? We can change nothing? Interesting.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#28 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 8:25:28 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

I disagree. I am quite sure that we are not all just walking around having already made choices before we have actually made them. That defeats the very essence of free-will.

Offline cgb2  
#29 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 12:23:34 PM(UTC)
cgb2
Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 689
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 18 post(s)
Don't know if this applies, but interesting to ponder none the less.

"...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one."
- Albert Einstein

http://everythingforever.com/einstein.htm
Offline FBondServ  
#30 Posted : Friday, December 31, 2010 6:20:52 AM(UTC)
FBondServ
Joined: 12/31/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: WA state

You guys are unbelievable! !

Too educated for your own good ...
This thread is most disturbing and sickening.

GOD made evil by being love and GOOD.

HE is everywhere at the same time and scripture says that if I decend in to hell HE is there...

Wake up men.

FLATLY YAH is all knowing and everywhere. This does NOT mean that he had to go somewhere to figure it out.

HE knows the end from the beginning and is NOT trapped in time. STOP being so anal ands silly in your effort to strip what the scripture says to make HIM not what scripture says HE is. This whole thing smacks of religious pride and human figuring out of things....

LET HIM who sits on the throne just be and accept that HE is a rewarder of those who diligently seek HIM.

Mincing over words and scratching through techinal semantics does NOT make me "know HIM"

I love the maker of the universe and what ever manifestation to me is the GOD of the bible or scripture I trust in. Holy men of old gave us the scriptures as we know them and they are NOT all of the God head manifest...

This whole thread seems futile.

LOVE the Lord your God and in HIM you shall trust... It is of NO consequence that you split hairs over the use of the word "LORD"



I know HIM and HE knows me.... The name I cal HIM who created the universe is NOT consistant with all religions lead to heaven...... BUT it is much easier to live with myself and in HIS presence when I am settled in spirit so I can be led of HIS holy spirit and direction...

THANKS...

I am a brand new member and this is my very first post here. PLEASE be careful with me and gentle.... I can not bear another rejection or abrasion with religious thinking and futile human reasoning.....

I am in hopes we here are capable. :-))
Offline Daniel  
#31 Posted : Friday, December 31, 2010 6:55:59 AM(UTC)
Daniel
Joined: 10/24/2010(UTC)
Posts: 694
Location: Florida

FBondServ wrote:
scripture says that if I decend in to hell HE is there...


I must have missed that verse.

Citation, please!

My understanding that the definition of H-E-double-toothpicks was separation from Him.
Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline Richard  
#32 Posted : Friday, December 31, 2010 8:09:30 AM(UTC)
Richard
Joined: 1/19/2010(UTC)
Posts: 695
Man
United States

Thanks: 4 times
Was thanked: 8 time(s) in 7 post(s)
I believe the passage being referenced is this one.

Psalm 139:8 wrote:
If I ascend up into heaven, you are there.
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, you are there!


Richard
Offline Daniel  
#33 Posted : Friday, December 31, 2010 8:37:48 AM(UTC)
Daniel
Joined: 10/24/2010(UTC)
Posts: 694
Location: Florida

flintface wrote:
I believe the passage being referenced is this one.



Wiki wrote:
In the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job. The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses "Hades" to refer to the abode of the dead. (Revelation 20:13) The belief that those in Sheol awaited the resurrection either in comfort (in the bosom of Abraham) or in torment may be reflected in the story of the New Testament of Lazarus and Dives. English translations of the Hebrew scriptures have variously rendered the word Sheol as "Hell" or "the grave".



Seems to me that Sheol (the place David is talking about) is not the "Hell" referred to by evangelical-new-testament-fundamentalist-4/5point-calvinistic-baptisterians.
Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline MadDog  
#34 Posted : Friday, December 31, 2010 10:16:48 AM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 604
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Was thanked: 19 time(s) in 13 post(s)
FBondServ wrote:
You guys are unbelievable! !

Too educated for your own good ...
This thread is most disturbing and sickening.

Wake up men.

STOP being so anal ands silly in your effort to strip what the scripture says to make HIM not what scripture says HE is. This whole thing smacks of religious pride and human figuring out of things....

This whole thread seems futile.

I am a brand new member and this is my very first post here. PLEASE be careful with me and gentle.... I can not bear another rejection or abrasion with religious thinking and futile human reasoning.....

I am in hopes we here are capable. :-))


Yeah, I don't see why anybody would take offense to what you stated. None whatsoever. I too go off every once in a while, but you say this is your first post? Wow, what an introduction.

You hope we are capable and yet you go off on a rant like that. So....so long as we agree with everything you say, everything will be just honky dory. You know one of the main reasons I came to YY was to get away from organized religion; imagine that and yet you accuse this forum of being the exact thing we are trying to shed ourselves of.

FBondServ wrote:
HE knows the end from the beginning and is NOT trapped in time.


Who said anything about Yahweh being trapped in time? I don't recall anyone saying such. What I do recall is that Yahweh is outside our space-time, hence his set-apart status. He is timeless, heck he created (our) space-time and from my perspective when Yahweh personally intervenes in our space-time it is due to dire circumstances and usually people die when he does. Probably why he doesn't do it that often.

FBondServ wrote:
Mincing over words and scratching through techinal semantics does NOT make me "know HIM"

Holy men of old gave us the scriptures as we know them and they are NOT all of the God head manifest...

LOVE the Lord your God and in HIM you shall trust... It is of NO consequence that you split hairs over the use of the word "LORD"

I know HIM and HE knows me.... The name I cal HIM who created the universe is NOT consistant with all religions lead to heaven...... BUT it is much easier to live with myself and in HIS presence when I am settled in spirit so I can be led of HIS holy spirit and direction...


So why bother reading scripture at all? Let's ignore Yahweh's warning about "my people perish for lack of knowledge." The Torah, just words uttered by Yahweh and in Hebrew I might add. And there is no God Head, Yahweh is one. You may not see anything wrong with using the title "LORD" but from reading scripture Yahweh certainly does mind.

Also remember the English translations we have today have been manipulated and corrupted in order to organize people into a religious frame of mind and thus rule them, and don't forget the numerous translations that allowed error upon error to creep in. And if you had read YY you would know that even the Levites who were ordered to preserve the Torah took liberties in altering it most specificly by substituting Yahweh's name with the "LORD." If you had read YY you would know that it isn't just a high-minded whim we are basing that on. Well actually Criag and Ken who finally connected the dots, but I think most on this forum like myself always had a suspicion that there was something quiet not right with our "religion."

And I'm not quiet sure I got this straight, are you stating that all religions lead to heaven regardless of what they call God?

Before I go further have you even read Yada Yahaweh?

Edited by user Friday, December 31, 2010 4:39:54 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline James  
#35 Posted : Friday, December 31, 2010 11:51:00 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
Daniel wrote:
Seems to me that Sheol (the place David is talking about) is not the "Hell" referred to by evangelical-new-testament-fundamentalist-4/5point-calvinistic-baptisterians.


At it's core the most accurate meaning of Sheol is simply the grave. It is not Hell as we think of it, and as some translators are want to translate it. It is the grave, or the abode of the dead.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Royce  
#36 Posted : Friday, December 31, 2010 3:23:52 PM(UTC)
Royce
Joined: 9/2/2010(UTC)
Posts: 225
Man
Location: USA

Hey man, you sound like the many churches I have been to when they come up against a question they dont want to face. "Dont question it, there are things human minds cant understand" isnt that what you want to say? I guess you did in other words though.. We are discussing this FRIEND, thats what this is A DISCUSSION FORUM.


FBondServ wrote:
You guys are unbelievable! !

Too educated for your own good ...
This thread is most disturbing and sickening.

GOD made evil by being love and GOOD.

HE is everywhere at the same time and scripture says that if I decend in to hell HE is there...

Wake up men.

FLATLY YAH is all knowing and everywhere. This does NOT mean that he had to go somewhere to figure it out.

HE knows the end from the beginning and is NOT trapped in time. STOP being so anal ands silly in your effort to strip what the scripture says to make HIM not what scripture says HE is. This whole thing smacks of religious pride and human figuring out of things....

LET HIM who sits on the throne just be and accept that HE is a rewarder of those who diligently seek HIM.

Mincing over words and scratching through techinal semantics does NOT make me "know HIM"

I love the maker of the universe and what ever manifestation to me is the GOD of the bible or scripture I trust in. Holy men of old gave us the scriptures as we know them and they are NOT all of the God head manifest...

This whole thread seems futile.

LOVE the Lord your God and in HIM you shall trust... It is of NO consequence that you split hairs over the use of the word "LORD"



I know HIM and HE knows me.... The name I cal HIM who created the universe is NOT consistant with all religions lead to heaven...... BUT it is much easier to live with myself and in HIS presence when I am settled in spirit so I can be led of HIS holy spirit and direction...

THANKS...

I am a brand new member and this is my very first post here. PLEASE be careful with me and gentle.... I can not bear another rejection or abrasion with religious thinking and futile human reasoning.....

I am in hopes we here are capable. :-))

Offline Noel  
#37 Posted : Friday, December 31, 2010 11:03:07 PM(UTC)
Noel
Joined: 9/27/2009(UTC)
Posts: 92
Location: UK

Returning to the subject...........

All I was trying to say to Max was that I think we both have freewill but yet he knows in advance what we are going to do. How do you think prophecy about historical things which subsequently happened were correct if this was not the case ?

I really don't think we can force Yahuwah's perspective into the capabilities of a human mind, even though it is what we all want to do and most of us get really annoyed when we fail to do so. Having a controlling spirit is not a good thing from a human point of view. Trying to fit what Yahuwah thinks and knows into the brain of a current human model is not only impossible, but it also is an attempt to control him, which actually describes a lot of what goes on in religion.

When I looked at my children, I often knew which choice of confectionery they would make even though they had free choice of more than one option. That is because I knew them well. Yes, yes I know that is simplistic, but it illustrates the point.

All we are talking about here is time. Our thoughts and actions take place in time and we cannot escape that for now. Yahuwah can go anywhere he wants in the length of the timescale and appear and do anything at any time by re-entering it either in the past or the future or the present. Therefore he must know what we have chosen on any subject just by going ahead a bit and looking. This does not mean we didn't have free will. I think his appearances as a human in the Tanach were exactly this, only going backwards. He was not born yet, but that is only a problem if you are in the constriction of time. He is not.

As to the other points being made about 'intellectual' discussions etc. etc.etc. If I had a pound for each time I have been accused of trying to intellectualize the whole thing, I would be a rich man. This in my view is an early card played by those who have glimpsed the beginning of something which is going to rock their religious boat, and they hope to get out of it that way. I even tried that one myself with Yada as I gradually exited Babylon. I am pleased that he dealt with me firmly, yet honestly. Just don't try it on this forum. It is not helpful.

I thought Sheol was a place with various compartments, including the Abraham's bosom bit, which was emptied at the feast of Bikurim/ Matzah. Of Course God can go there. But he can't go to the place of separation which is the ultimate destination for many, and is not Sheol.


n
Offline Matthew  
#38 Posted : Saturday, January 1, 2011 1:11:15 PM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
FBondServ wrote:
Mincing over words and scratching through techinal semantics does NOT make me "know HIM"


This could easily turn nasty.

While I'm not one to be concerned about word usage, whereas some would argue that it's crucial to use certain words and refrain from using certain words in order to know Yahweh (Yahuweh, Yahowah...) and have salvation. However, words can be very revealing, for example James' recent post regarding the core meaning of Sheol. Perhaps too this whole debate of what God does and doesn't know is based upon semantics.

In my mind God knows who every person on the planet is; however, whether they have a relationship with Yahweh and "know" Him is another story. When God says "I do not know you" I prefer to see it meaning something like "since you don't have a relationship with Me, even though I know everything about you, I don't recognise you as one of my own children because you chose not to be one!"

God cannot lie! Is this because He is incapable of lying or is it because He chooses to not lie? What about the Abyss, can God go there if He had to?
Offline sirgodfrey  
#39 Posted : Saturday, January 1, 2011 2:22:52 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

"evangelical-new-testament-fundamentalist-4/5point-calvinistic-baptisterians" LOLOL

Matthew, I'm going to have to ask Yah that when we're chillin. That is an amazing inquiry!! Does Yah have the ability to lie, or does He choose not to lie? WHHHOOAAAA....
Offline MadDog  
#40 Posted : Saturday, January 1, 2011 6:45:29 PM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 604
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Was thanked: 19 time(s) in 13 post(s)
Matthew wrote:
God cannot lie! Is this because He is incapable of lying or is it because He chooses to not lie? What about the Abyss, can God go there if He had to?


I had a few of things in mind. I think he chooses not to lie or at least not tell the whole truth, which is technically not lying. Like for instance the time he told Moses to tell Pharaoh to let his people go in order to give a feast to Yahweh. All the time knowing that Yahweh wasn't just going to let them celebrate his feast and then return to Egypt. In this case he knew that the Pharaoh would unleash his army to slaughter the Jews, eventhough Yahweh/Moses gave the impression that they were only going out for the feast and eventhough they didn't say it, return. From Pharaoh's perspective, Yahweh's decree would have been a lie, but we have the luxury by looking into the past to know what Pharaoh didn't know at the time.

The second scenario was when Yahweh had Moses strike a rock in order to make it gush out water. Moses out of anger goofed up the miracle metaphor and this angered Yahweh so much that it prevented Moses from entering Israel. I find it interesting that Yahweh had to break his word (in essence) and let the miracle happen otherwise the mob would have killed Moses or at the very least, diminished Moses' and Yahweh's stature. I take it Yahweh took one on the chin for this one.

The third scenario is with Yonah and Nineveh. Again with the destruction of an entire city like Sodom and Gomorrah, except this time he gave them a warning. What is interesting is he sent one of his prophets to warn a gentile city and secondly the city actually listened. The reason I bring this up is because Yahweh spoke, gave a prophecy and a choice, so it could have gone either way. I think we forget the other white meat, Satan's ability to also intervene in human affairs. So I think our space-time free-will is fluid, enough so that an entity like Satan or Yahweh can intervene and change history.

The above tells me is that Yahweh is dealing with a handicap. If Yahweh were "Almighty" like christians believe he is, then he could do no wrong, never ever. Not him and not his prophets, who are representatives of him. Yahweh needs to lose some in order to win some. I think it was on BlogTalkRadio Yada came up with the point that by Yahweh diminishing himself in the form of Yahshua he actually increased himself.

I think Yahweh already did go into the Abyss and back.
Offline york mister  
#41 Posted : Sunday, January 2, 2011 12:31:23 AM(UTC)
york mister
Joined: 4/8/2010(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: uk

"You guys are unbelievable! !

Too educated for your own good ...
This thread is most disturbing and sickening.

GOD made evil by being love and GOOD."

... I was surprised no-one picked up on this "GOD made evil" bit.... I always thought that just as darkness is an absence of light, so evil is an absence of God... and I certainly don't think it is in God's 'personaity' to create evil!
Offline MadDog  
#42 Posted : Sunday, January 2, 2011 1:15:27 AM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 604
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Was thanked: 19 time(s) in 13 post(s)
york mister wrote:
... I was surprised no-one picked up on this "GOD made evil" bit.... I always thought that just as darkness is an absence of light, so evil is an absence of God... and I certainly don't think it is in God's 'personaity' to create evil!


Quote:
Isa.45
[5} I am Yahweh, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
[6] That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am Yahweh, and there is none else.
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I Yahweh do all these things.
[8] Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I Yahweh have created it.
[9] Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
[10] Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
[11] Thus saith Yahweh, the Set-Apart One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
[12] I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.


I beg to differ sir. In order to for us humans to have free-will, we need a to be able to choose. We need the ability to accept him, to reject him, and yes even to ignore him. Yahweh's declarative statement stands firm.

Yahweh gave us free-will, just like when he gave Adam free-will. And if you are still asking why; then my only answer is he wanted offspring. In essence he "allowed" evil to give us free-will. Free-will is the answer.

You seem to think that there was never darkness and light before our space-time creation. You need to be able to set-apart dark from light as opposed from good and evil. Can anyone else here on the forum shed more "light" on this translation?
Offline york mister  
#43 Posted : Sunday, January 2, 2011 7:08:58 AM(UTC)
york mister
Joined: 4/8/2010(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: uk

hmm - I see what you mean.. I notice the root of the word for evil is ra'a' (Strong's H7489 - for what that's worth) which is a verb - meaning to be evil, rather than just evil. That would of course fit in with the free will aspect - ie. I make (asah) peace (I complete/finish you, make sound etc if you chose me/my way), I create (bara) (those who chose to be) evil.

Out of my depth here and only using blue letter for the translation but it ties in with what we already know.
Any help appreciated here!
Offline cgb2  
#44 Posted : Sunday, January 2, 2011 4:44:57 PM(UTC)
cgb2
Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 689
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 18 post(s)
MadDog wrote:
I had a few of things in mind. I think he chooses not to lie or at least not tell the whole truth, which is technically not lying. Like for instance the time he told Moses to tell Pharaoh to let his people go in order to give a feast to Yahweh. All the time knowing that Yahweh wasn't just going to let them celebrate his feast and then return to Egypt. In this case he knew that the Pharaoh would unleash his army to slaughter the Jews, eventhough Yahweh/Moses gave the impression that they were only going out for the feast and eventhough they didn't say it, return. From Pharaoh's perspective, Yahweh's decree would have been a lie, but we have the luxury by looking into the past to know what Pharaoh didn't know at the time.

The second scenario was when Yahweh had Moses strike a rock in order to make it gush out water. Moses out of anger goofed up the miracle metaphor and this angered Yahweh so much that it prevented Moses from entering Israel. I find it interesting that Yahweh had to break his word (in essence) and let the miracle happen otherwise the mob would have killed Moses or at the very least, diminished Moses' and Yahweh's stature. I take it Yahweh took one on the chin for this one.

The third scenario is with Yonah and Nineveh. Again with the destruction of an entire city like Sodom and Gomorrah, except this time he gave them a warning. What is interesting is he sent one of his prophets to warn a gentile city and secondly the city actually listened. The reason I bring this up is because Yahweh spoke, gave a prophecy and a choice, so it could have gone either way. I think we forget the other white meat, Satan's ability to also intervene in human affairs. So I think our space-time free-will is fluid, enough so that an entity like Satan or Yahweh can intervene and change history.

The above tells me is that Yahweh is dealing with a handicap. If Yahweh were "Almighty" like christians believe he is, then he could do no wrong, never ever. Not him and not his prophets, who are representatives of him. Yahweh needs to lose some in order to win some. I think it was on BlogTalkRadio Yada came up with the point that by Yahweh diminishing himself in the form of Yahshua he actually increased himself.

I think Yahweh already did go into the Abyss and back.


Interesting, but a few nits. "....Pharaoh would unleash his army to slaughter the Jews..." - I think Pharoah would have wanted to slaughter all the Hebrews, not just those of the tribe of Yahudah (Judah = Jews).

Also Yahweh commanded Moshe to speak to the rock:
Num 20:7 And יהוה spoke to Mosheh, saying,
Num 20:8 “Take the rod and assemble the congregation, you and your brother Aharon. And you shall speak to the rock before their eyes, and it shall give its water. And you shall bring water for them out of the rock and give drink to the congregation and their livestock.”
Num 20:9 And Mosheh took the rod from before יהוה as He commanded him.
Num 20:10 And Mosheh and Aharon assembled the assembly before the rock. And he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels, shall we bring water for you out of this rock?”
Num 20:11 Then Mosheh lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod. And much water came out, and the congregation and their livestock drank.
Num 20:12 But יהוה spoke to Mosheh and to Aharon, “Because you did not believe Me, to set Me apart in the eyes of the children of Yisra’ĕl, therefore you do not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”
Offline MadDog  
#45 Posted : Sunday, January 2, 2011 8:49:53 PM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 604
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Was thanked: 19 time(s) in 13 post(s)
cgb2 wrote:
Also Yahweh commanded Moshe to speak to the rock:
Num 20:7 And יהוה spoke to Mosheh, saying,
Num 20:8 “Take the rod and assemble the congregation, you and your brother Aharon. And you shall speak to the rock before their eyes, and it shall give its water. And you shall bring water for them out of the rock and give drink to the congregation and their livestock.”
Num 20:9 And Mosheh took the rod from before יהוה as He commanded him.
Num 20:10 And Mosheh and Aharon assembled the assembly before the rock. And he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels, shall we bring water for you out of this rock?”
Num 20:11 Then Mosheh lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod. And much water came out, and the congregation and their livestock drank.
Num 20:12 But יהוה spoke to Mosheh and to Aharon, “Because you did not believe Me, to set Me apart in the eyes of the children of Yisra’ĕl, therefore you do not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”


I take "we" to mean Moshe and Aaron and not Moshe and Yahweh because he would have used Yahweh's name as he should have when he spoke to the rock. Also the fact that out of the hundred of previous micacles Moshe did, he gave Yahweh the credit.

Quote:
Num.20
[23] And Yahweh spake unto Moses and Aaron in mount Hor, by the coast of the land of Edom, saying,
[24] Aaron shall be gathered unto his people: for he shall not enter into the land which I have given unto the children of Israel, because ye rebelled against my word at the water of Meribah.
[25] Take Aaron and Eleazar his son, and bring them up unto mount Hor:
[26] And strip Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son: and Aaron shall be gathered unto his people, and shall die there.
[27] And Moses did as Yahweh commanded: and they went up into mount Hor in the sight of all the congregation.
[28] And Moses stripped Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son; and Aaron died there in the top of the mount: and Moses and Eleazar came down from the mount.
[29] And when all the congregation saw that Aaron was dead, they mourned for Aaron thirty days, even all the house of Israel.


Quote:
Deut.32
[48] And Yahweh spake unto Moses that selfsame day, saying,
[49] Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho; and behold the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel for a possession:
[50] And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:
[51] Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.
[52] Yet thou shalt see the land before thee; but thou shalt not go thither unto the land which I give the children of Israel.

Edited by user Sunday, January 2, 2011 11:22:34 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline MadDog  
#46 Posted : Sunday, January 2, 2011 11:16:30 PM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 604
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Was thanked: 19 time(s) in 13 post(s)
york mister wrote:
"I always thought that just as darkness is an absence of light, so evil is an absence of God... and I certainly don't think it is in God's 'personaity' to create evil!


york mister wrote:
hmm - I see what you mean.. I notice the root of the word for evil is ra'a' (Strong's H7489 - for what that's worth) which is a verb - meaning to be evil, rather than just evil. That would of course fit in with the free will aspect - ie. I make (asah) peace (I complete/finish you, make sound etc if you chose me/my way), I create (bara) (those who chose to be) evil.

Out of my depth here and only using blue letter for the translation but it ties in with what we already know.
Any help appreciated here!


Quote:
Isa.45
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I Yahweh do all these things.


Can you back up the translation to the highlighted part? Yahweh says "form" and then "create" for light and dark. And how is evil the opposite of peace (if he were even trying to connect the two in this statement); wouldn't good be a better word? From Merriam-Websters: Near Antonyms for peace: conflict, contention, discord, dissidence, strife, trouble; tumult, turmoil, unrest, upheaval; fighting, warfare; action, battle, combat.

Quote:
Gen.1
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
[4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


Quote:
Job.1
[6] Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also among them.
[7] And Yahweh said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered Yahweh, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
[8] And Yahweh said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?


Makes my head spin thinking about this. Good and evil existed long before earth was ready to be inhabited. To me, before our time-space existed, scripture speaks of Lucifer and a great war (the big bang?). Maybe (my speculation only) that that is why the universe was in dissarray or maybe even caused part of the creation.

In Job we see Satan standing before Yahweh. If you consider Satan evil then how can he stand before Yahweh? And another example of Yahweh not knowing something, hence him asking a question. Besides, how can Satan sneak past all those angels without being detected? Someone needs to get better security.

I posted this before and I really like the scriptural twist to this. Professor Kaku speaking on whether earth is in between a white and black universe.

http://video.foxnews.com...-hole/?playlist_id=86909

Okay, I'm just rambling now and way off the subject.

Edited by user Monday, January 3, 2011 1:10:32 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline James  
#47 Posted : Monday, January 3, 2011 4:29:05 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Yasah' Go to Quoted Post
I form (yatsar - fashion, shape, devise, create, and mold) light (‘owr) and I create (bara’ – make, form or fashion something out of elements that exist, cause something to happen, carve or pare down) darkness (choshek — obscurity, blackness, concealment and confusion; the absence of light; ignorance, distress, and sorrow), I prepare and produce (‘asah — cause to happen, make, gain and profit from, deal with, ordain, fashion, and bring about) reconciliation (shalowm — favor and salvation, health, peace, prosperity, safety, friendship, companionship, and relationship) and create (bara’ – make, form or fashion something out of elements that exist, cause something to happen, carve or pare down) evil (ra' - that which is disagreeable, displeasing, and malignant), I Yahuwah make, prepare and produce (‘asah — cause to happen, make, gain and profit from, deal with, ordain, fashion, and bring about) all of (kol) this.


‘Owr, the word rendered "light" can be "the light of instruction and guidance, the light of judgment, the light which removes someone from darkness, trouble and danger, the light of life, the light of a lamp, or the light of God." ‘Owr can also be the "light of the sun and stars"

The DSS Bible differs in one word in this verse. Shalowm does not appear in the DSS, since we do not yet have access to the actual scrolls and must rely on translations, I am not certain what the Hebrew word used was, the DSS Bible translates it as Goodness, which if I had to guess I would say is the Hebrew word is tuwb - beneficial qualities, abundance, beauty, fairness, and joy.

In the most basic sense Yah is behind evil, in that he created the Adversary, he created man, and everything else.
What I find interesting is the word bara’ is used with both Choshek and Ra’ but not with ‘Owr or Shalowm/Tuwb. Bara’ carries the connotation of using something that is already there, darkness being the absence of light, darkness is achieved by removing light. Yah is often compared to light, so darkness is created by Yah pulling back, contracting Himself to allow it.

I think the same idea can be draw in the second part of the verse. It is often said that evil exists when good men do nothing, so at least to a degree evil is not just the opposite of good, it is the absence of good as well, when Yah was present in Eden with Adam, there was not evil, but after the fall, Yah pulled Himself back and thus allowed evil to exist.

So both darkness and evil exist because Yah allows it to exist, by pulling back Himself, and not stopping it. I would say that he allows it because it is needed for free will.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Noel  
#48 Posted : Monday, January 3, 2011 8:48:45 AM(UTC)
Noel
Joined: 9/27/2009(UTC)
Posts: 92
Location: UK

James, I agree with that. Well put.

Something else occurred to me. Is there not a consequence of any creative act? Example ... build a house but trees etc have to die. Create most anything and some energy source has to be diminished. Does not creating anything also create diminution in something else? Therefore is there not a cost to doing anything creative?
When there is light, created by God, is the cost not darkness? When there is heat is there not cold? But the act of creating the one ends inevitably with the existence of the other, even though the latter was not in itself directly created per se.

Offline york mister  
#49 Posted : Monday, January 3, 2011 10:14:17 AM(UTC)
york mister
Joined: 4/8/2010(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: uk

Thanks James + Maddog for elaborating! I think it makes sense that, as Noel said, the creation of evil was not a direct act, but a consequence of creating beings that have a will of their own to chose to be in the light, or without the light - with God who guides you down the right path, or without God which leads to evil (my NKJV has this as calamity).



Users browsing this topic
Guest
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.