I've seen several post that they just don't *get* Paul.
That the letters thought to be written by him don't make sense.
I felt that way, until recently.

Thanks to a close friend, I think I finally understand the argument made in the letters commonly attributed to Paul.
Not that I agree, but I think I understand.

Here's his recommended reading course, that got me there:
Genesis Chapters 1-3
Genesis Chapters 12-21
Galatians
2 Corinthians Chapters 2 & 3
Ephesians Chapter 2
I added Romans Chapters 3, 4 to the list, because I saw the same theme evident.

Read all of these mindful of the viewpoint that “Torah” begins with Exodus Chapter 12, 430 years AFTER the Covenant with Abraham.

The argument being made is that Messiah has restored us to the state of the covenant with Abraham, before Yahweh through Moses saddled the people with the burden of the law.

BUT:

In Galatians 5, Paul argues against circumcision, which was the symbol of the covenant cut with Abraham. I just can't reconcile his arguing for the restored state, without the accompanying sign.

Also, I've come to agree that James, 1 & 2 Peter, 1 2 & 3 John, and Jude were likely written in response to the way people were interpreting the letters attributed to Paul. Examples:
In 2 Corinthians 3:18, “Paul” writes of the “open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord”. James uses very similar language in 1:22-25, when he then contrasts the “hearer” with the ”doer” of the “perfect law of liberty”.
“Paul” writes of Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar in Galatians 4; James addresses faith and works, using the example of Abraham & Isaac, in 2:14-26.
James, Peter, John, and Jude all warn of false prophets; and two times mention the error of Balaam, revealed in Revelation as leading the people to eat food sacrificed to idols (a la 1 Corinthians 8).
Peter and John emphasize that they were eyewitnesses, Peter even contrasts this with “cunningly devised fables” (2 Peter 1:16-18).
Peter's direct reference to Paul (2 Peter 3:15-18), and the error of the wicked (athesmos, meaning lawless).
John's repetition of the importance of keeping God's commandments.

The law was from the beginning, and it was only re-introduced through Moses since it had been largely lost in the years of Egyptian slavery. The sabbath, for example, was from the seventh day of creation, recorded early in Genesis. The commandment at Sinai was to “remember” it, because it already existed; it wasn't new. But it had to be re-learned, including a double portion of manna on the 6th day, followed by none on the Sabbath. Peter makes this point also, in 2 Peter 2:8 – if Abraham didn't have “the Law”, speaking of those at Sodom and Gomorrah, how could Lot be vexed in “his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds”?

Thoughts?

When it boils down to it Messiah commanded his followers to do and teach the least of the Torah.

So in my humble opinion what Paul may or may not say, does simply not matter.

I think all one really needs to do is read Romans Chapter 3, and then look up every single "verse" that Paul quotes, and read the entire thing in context. That is what finally did it for me, reading Paul's quotes in context with what was truly being written in the Torah and prophets, and many times they say the exact opposite of the view point Paul is trying to Push

This is pretty interesting, I never really thought of it in those terms, but that makes sense. the Sodom and Gomorrah one occurred to me a while back, when I was translating that section, but the part about remembering the Sabbath, does seem to make it sound as though the Sabbath had been given to man prior.

As for understanding Paul, in my opinion, rather intentionally or just because he wasn't a good communicator, Paul's writings are written in a way that you can take it however you want. A pro Torah person can argue that he is pro Torah, and Christians can argue that the Torah is void. Just my two cents.

Thanks bigritch for the clarification, I can see your view more in full now.



I can see your point in there being a difference between those calling upon Yahweh and them. One thing that gets me is that David says in Psalm 51 (the psalm used for Romans 3:4) in verse 5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Verse 2 even has the word "iniquity" used to describe the harshness of his sin against Yahweh. The passage goes on to say that God does "not delight in sacrifice" and "does not take pleasure in burnt offerings," otherwise David would offer them, instead God takes more pleasure in "a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart."



"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John 8:7

From birth we have all missed the mark, have sinned, and all of us have at some point in our lives spoken outright lies or half lies. While it not might be my intent to purposefully lead people away from Yahweh I can assure you somewhere along the way I've said some half-truth (poison), or was a poor example through my actions, that caused a person to turn more away from Yahweh than towards Him.

Psalm 51:2 "Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin." According to Psalm 51 David didn't go offer sacrifices to please God, instead he acknowledged his sin and requested God's favour and forgiveness so that he could be restored to the joy of salvation, to Yahshua. So according to Romans 3, and Psalm 51 it seems, we do not perform the Torah to find favour with Yahweh, instead we believe in His Salvation that comes through our broken spirits before Him, seeking His favour, grace and forgiveness. However, I must certainly agree that David clearly showed that he understood the Torah and its associated sacrifices, whereas most Christians and Jews don't.



From my understanding verses 4 of both Romans 3 and Psalm 51 speak of Yahweh being proved right, by proving us wrong, through His Torah. If we have wronged Yahweh it means we have sinned against Him and have in some way or another stood condemned before Him.

How does the Torah bring life? Through offering sacrifices, circumcision, etc. or through an acknowledgement of one's errors followed by trust in Yahshua? Of course trust must be followed by change in one's ways to that of God's ways. And I would recommend circumcision as a sign, as much as I would water baptism; however I would put more focus on the 10 Commandments. Preaching to myself here.

If I read Romans 4 I see Paul trying to say that it doesn't matter how literally perfect one walks because in the end one slip is enough to be condemned if one doesn't trust in Yahshua to provide forgiveness and salvation. He says that "trust and reliance" is what seals the deal for both Jews and Gentiles.

I must say the part you say "Where there is no law, there is no sin" had me there for a second. What I think it means is that God specifically opened the door to salvation through a promise rather than through a hard-to-do law, because through a hard-to-do law there would obviously be a lot of missing the mark, so much so that we would all stand condemned and suffer spiritual and physical death. Therefore, if there was no law it means we wouldn't be able to break it, resulting in us always being perfect regardless of relationship or not, which would then mean that having a promise would be pointless too because we wouldn't need to have a relationship with Yahweh to be perfect. Still a lot of studying to do on my part to figure out and understand this one in full.



The quote by Yahshua the Messiah is from Matthew 19:16-30 16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." 18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honour your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'" 20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

In Romans 13:8-9 Paul says: 8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

In response to Romans 13:8-10 Yada says in chapter 10 of QP: It’s okay, you can scream and yell and vent your frustration at Paul for writing "and also whatever other commandments are in the Word." I did. His attitude is appalling. I’m sure that you noticed that Sha’uwl left some of the Commandments off of his list. Do you suppose that this was because he didn’t know them or because he didn’t want his audience to know that he was guilty of violating them? The answer to that question is found in Commandments Paul omitted.

My concern is that neither did Yahshua list the loving God part, right after being asked by the young man which one's he lacked, and neither do I see Yada venting his frustration at Yahshua for the one's He omitted. I think the reason neither Yahshua nor Paul list those is because they're are, or at least become, obvious through a study of the Commandments and I assume the young man already knew about the loving God part and keeping Sabbath.

In regards to the parents of John the Baptist I would quote Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins." Even though we believe and are considered righteous in God's eyes, as some have done before us, we all now and again fall; however, it's Yahweh Spirit that covers over our sin.

One of Paul's central arguments is that Abraham was considered righteous before God prior to being circumcised. Hence why he stresses throughout Romans that Salvation comes through a promise (Jew or not) and not through attempting literal obedience in one's own strength.



Yeah, hence why so much confusion and such difficulty in understanding him.

Going to place my words in red for easier reading.



I can see your point in there being a difference between those calling upon Yahweh and them. One thing that gets me is that David says in Psalm 51 (the psalm used for Romans 3:4) in verse 5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Verse 2 even has the word "iniquity" used to describe the harshness of his sin against Yahweh. The passage goes on to say that God does "not delight in sacrifice" and "does not take pleasure in burnt offerings," otherwise David would offer them, instead God takes more pleasure in "a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart."

Something that needs to be kept in mind with Psalms 51. It was written after Nathan had come to David and his sin with Bathsheba.

And yes David speaks of the Creator not delighting in sacrifice (and then clarifies himself). He says the sacrifices of the Creator are a broken spirit and a contrite heart, AND THEN thou shalt be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with the burnt offering and whole burnt offering, THEN shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

Circumcision of the heart is a Tanakh concept to begin with. Isaiah makes it clear the Creator gets very annoyed when people go through the motions of sacrifice or keeping a Feast, yet fail to live a life according to Torah.



"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John 8:7

Messiah was 100% correct in this, as the men who had brought the woman caught in adultery were in fact themselves breaking Torah. What does the Torah say regarding a man and woman caught in adultery? BOTH shall be brought. Notice the man is not brought in this account and only the woman is.

From birth we have all missed the mark, have sinned, and all of us have at some point in our lives spoken outright lies or half lies. While it not might be my intent to purposefully lead people away from Yahweh I can assure you somewhere along the way I've said some half-truth (poison), or was a poor example through my actions, that caused a person to turn more away from Yahweh than towards Him.

I agree, everyone has sinned. Everyone stumbles sometimes and falls off the path. yet you repent, and get back on the path. Do you know what book talks about forgiveness of sin more then any other book in the Bible? Leviticus!

Psalm 51:2 "Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin." According to Psalm 51 David didn't go offer sacrifices to please God, instead he acknowledged his sin and requested God's favour and forgiveness so that he could be restored to the joy of salvation, to Yahshua. So according to Romans 3, and Psalm 51 it seems, we do not perform the Torah to find favour with Yahweh, instead we believe in His Salvation that comes through our broken spirits before Him, seeking His favour, grace and forgiveness. However, I must certainly agree that David clearly showed that he understood the Torah and its associated sacrifices, whereas most Christians and Jews don't.

David simply first repented and was broken, and THEN in verse 19 clarifies that the Creator will be pleased with the sacrifice. David's heart was circumcised and even though he had sinned he repented. Whereas many people would simply offer the "sacrifice" and think things are then ok. David did both.



From my understanding verses 4 of both Romans 3 and Psalm 51 speak of Yahweh being proved right, by proving us wrong, through His Torah. If we have wronged Yahweh it means we have sinned against Him and have in some way or another stood condemned before Him.

Did the Creator condemn Cain when he first sinned? No, he told Cain to do what was right and pleasing and then everything would be ok. Cain then of course "shook his fist" so to speak at the Creator and went and murdered Abel.

How does the Torah bring life? Through offering sacrifices, circumcision, etc. or through an acknowledgement of one's errors followed by trust in Yahshua? Of course trust must be followed by change in one's ways to that of God's ways. And I would recommend circumcision as a sign, as much as I would water baptism; however I would put more focus on the 10 Commandments. Preaching to myself here.

The Torah brings life and blessing when you walk in its ways and keep the commandments. It frees you from the religious opinions of men.

If I read Romans 4 I see Paul trying to say that it doesn't matter how literally perfect one walks because in the end one slip is enough to be condemned if one doesn't trust in Yahshua to provide forgiveness and salvation. He says that "trust and reliance" is what seals the deal for both Jews and Gentiles.

Yes but the Torah in fact provided for people slipping up. The Creator says that if people would return to him and keep his commandments he would forgive and forget their sin. The Torah never expected human beings to be 100% perfect at all times. In fact Righteousness could be said to be "Upright and good standing with the Creator"

I must say the part you say "Where there is no law, there is no sin" had me there for a second. What I think it means is that God specifically opened the door to salvation through a promise rather than through a hard-to-do law, because through a hard-to-do law there would obviously be a lot of missing the mark, so much so that we would all stand condemned and suffer spiritual and physical death. Therefore, if there was no law it means we wouldn't be able to break it, resulting in us always being perfect regardless of relationship or not, which would then mean that having a promise would be pointless too because we wouldn't need to have a relationship with Yahweh to be perfect. Still a lot of studying to do on my part to figure out and understand this one in full.

Yes but is the law hard to do? Was it hard for you not to steal a car yesterday? Was it hard for you not to kill anyone yesterday? Of course not. John also says the commandments are NOT a burden or hard to do.



The quote by Yahshua the Messiah is from Matthew 19:16-30 16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." 18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honour your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'" 20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

The key here that most people miss is this:

Which ones? The man is simply asking if he should keep the commandments of the Creator or the Oral Torah of the Rabbis. The Rabbis taught if you disobeyed the Creator he would forgive you, but if you broke their man made religious rules and regulations you would have no part in the life to come. "Which one?" is a very Jewish cultural question. Sadly the young man was not willingly to totally sell out to Messiah and follow him, just as billions of religious people on planet earth will not leave their wealth of "religion" behind and obey the Creator and Messiah.

In Romans 13:8-9 Paul says: 8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Sadly Paul left out "love thy God with all the heart, soul, and might here.

And 1 John makes it clear how we know we correctly love our neighbor, if we keep the commandments.

In response to Romans 13:8-10 Yada says in chapter 10 of QP: It’s okay, you can scream and yell and vent your frustration at Paul for writing "and also whatever other commandments are in the Word." I did. His attitude is appalling. I’m sure that you noticed that Sha’uwl left some of the Commandments off of his list. Do you suppose that this was because he didn’t know them or because he didn’t want his audience to know that he was guilty of violating them? The answer to that question is found in Commandments Paul omitted.

My concern is that neither did Yahshua list the loving God part, right after being asked by the young man which one's he lacked, and neither do I see Yada venting his frustration at Yahshua for the one's He omitted. I think the reason neither Yahshua nor Paul list those is because they're are, or at least become, obvious through a study of the Commandments and I assume the young man already knew about the loving God part and keeping Sabbath.

I agree with you here. There was no need to list every commandment when Messiah was asked. And as I said before I personally believe when the young man said "which ones" he was asking "The commandments of God or my religious leaders".

In regards to the parents of John the Baptist I would quote Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins." Even though we believe and are considered righteous in God's eyes, as some have done before us, we all now and again fall; however, it's Yahweh Spirit that covers over our sin.

Do not get me wrong, I am not suggesting that his parents never sinned. I am simply showing that when a person does sin, when they repent they are then perfect and upright in the Creator's eyes once again

One of Paul's central arguments is that Abraham was considered righteous before God prior to being circumcised. Hence why he stresses throughout Romans that Salvation comes through a promise (Jew or not) and not through attempting literal obedience in one's own strength.

Yes but later the Creator tells Isaac "because Abraham kept my commandments and my statutes...." Salvation in my opinion comes through a circumcised heart and love of the Creator and obedience to him and the teachings of Messiah because you love them. If you "believe on" Messiah's name, you believe YHWH saves, and because you believe he saves, you keep his commandments.



Yeah, hence why so much confusion and such difficulty in understanding him.

I agree with you hear for sure. Would that Paul's letters were simply like Torah and not the mess that they are. In fact the very fact that Paul's letters are "Hard to Understand" and confusing should trouble people greatly. We can thank Paul for the thousands of denominations and confusion in the world.

Nice post bigritchie, you raise some interesting posts, certainly gets me thinking. I think my following comment to James' post will be a response to your comment regarding Matthew 19:16-20.



Yeah, I was in the shower now, before having read your and bigritchie's posts, and I realised I wasn't really paying attention to the words of Yahshua. If I think about it He was saying "well, good for you, you do the easy laws but are you willing to sell all you have and follow Me?!" In other words, "do you love Me?" i.e. keep the first batch of commandments with all your heart, mind and soul. So my apologies there mate for speaking before thinking ;) Also, I was reminded by Swalchy today that John 7:53-8:11 only makes its appearance during the 5th century so I should've been more somewhat hesitant to quote the passage regarding "throwing the first stone."

I like how you put that there Matt, "Good for you". No need to apologize man, we are all trying to gain better understanding.

I almost brought up the John thing, but I couldn't remember for sure that that was the case, but that is one of my favorite examples for why we really shouldn't trust the fidelity of the RC, that is one of the most quoted verses by Christians, and there is no evidence of it's existence for about 400 years.