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Offline Theophilus  
#1 Posted : Monday, April 26, 2010 9:45:15 AM(UTC)
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I've been pondering the passage from Genesis 3:22-23 that tells of Adam being in part expelled from Eden to prevent him from reaching out his hand and eating of the Tree of Life, becoming like Us (Yahweh speaking). What I've been wondering is whether this was a metaphorical tree or like the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad, a ppears to be an actual tree which would have a real consequence?

From YY Nesama chapter of Genesis:

Quote:
Quote:
“Then Yahuweh, God (‘elohym), said (‘amar), ‘Behold (hen — now look and see), the man ‘Adam has become (hayah — exists) like (ka — similar to) one (‘echad — a singular unity) of (min — from) us (nahnu — a discourse reference to the speaker and associates) being acquainted with (yada’ — being aware of and knowing) good (towb — beauty, prosperity, and generosity) and bad (ra’ — evil, distress, and trouble). Now (wa), lest (pen) he stretch out (salah — reach out and extend) his hand (yad) and also (gam) take (laqah — receive and obtain, accept and grasp) from (min) the Tree (‘es) of Life (hayyim) and eat (‘akal), existing (hayah) forever (‘olam — for all eternity, forevermore), Yahuweh, God, sent him out (salah — dispatched him and sent him away) from (min) the protected and sheltered enclosed garden (gan) ‘Eden (‘eden — of overwhelming joy, delight, ultimate pleasure, extreme satisfaction and luxury, a favorable state of great gladness) to (la) work (‘abad — toil in) the ground (‘adamah — earth) from which relationally (‘asher) he was taken (laqah — grasp).” (Genesis 3:22-23)

Most of the time ‘elohiym is used, it is designed to convey the ancient Hebrew concept of the “royal we,” and represents a singular entity held in the highest esteem. However here, ‘elohiym, the plural of ‘el, meaning “mighty one” or “god,” is followed by nahnu, so Yahweh is expressing an association with an audience. Therefore, we can hold that “we” refers to the heavenly host of spiritual beings in His presence or that Yahweh is at this important juncture suggesting the existence of His two set-apart manifestations: Savior and Spirit.

Adam’s and Chawah’s expulsion from the Garden of Eden might sound intolerant, overbearing, and uncompassionate, but had God not done this, He would have become dishonest, unjust, and unreliable. As such, there would have been no hope for any of us.
It bears repeating, Adam had unabridged access to all that was good. All he “gained” in his deal with the devil was an awareness of evil, of distress and trouble. He had been given everything: direct access to God, companionship, nurturing, shelter, joy, pleasure, and life everlasting. He didn’t have to do anything for it; Eden was a gift. But as a consequence of choosing to reject Yah’s directions and generosity, he was now out on his own and destined to work for his own survival. It is the same choice we must all make. Do we want to rely on God or on ourselves?

As we previously discovered, in the Garden, the Tree of Life represents the upright pole upon which Yahushua hung. It is the permanent solution to Adam’s dilemma, the doorway to complete reconciliation and to eternal life. Those who consume its fruit live forever.
Based upon what we are told later in Scripture, Adam would ultimately come to avail himself of this gift and was eventually immersed in Yahweh’s Spirit, but not on this day. He had chosen to be acquainted with “bad, evil, trouble, and distress,” and he would get his wish. Adam was banished from the protected enclosure, and it was a hostile world out there, replete with suffering, anguish, fear, toil, pain, and even death.

These troubling conditions had existed outside the garden enclosure all along. That was the reason Eden had walls and armed guards. The fact is, we aren’t told how long Adam, Chawah, and Yahweh camped out together before the fall. It could have been a million years—although I suspect seventy (based upon Adam representing the first millennium of human history and of his life lasting 930 years post exile). Yet it doesn’t matter, because prior to the fall, Adam was incorruptible and thus immortal. Time was a meaningless concept for him, or at most a dimension, as it will one day be for us.


I see Yada saying the tree alludes to the upright pole and Yahushua's atoning sacrafice. I agree that this makes sense in an ultimate sense, but the passage seems to be meaningful to readers before Yahushua's earthly life and wonder if there might be more to it? I thought possibly it was in rejecting trust in Yahweh, and thus disassociating Adam's soul from Yah's Spirit, continuing to eat of th Tree of Life would result in associating his soul with the Advesary's rebellious Spirit? It just seems that there's more to this concept then I'm making sense of and welcome input from the forum.

Repectfully,

-Theophilus
Offline James  
#2 Posted : Monday, April 26, 2010 11:14:19 AM(UTC)
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I would say that there was a actual tree of life in the garden. 'Adam had to be physically separated from it because if he were to eat from the tree, he would be made spiritually immortal, but still with sin. The tree of life is certainly symbolic and foreshadowing the Upright Pole, it was through Yahushua's sacrifice on the upright pole that we are able to become spiritually immortal, but it was accompanied with his Matsah sacrifice, which removed penalty of our sin, so that we would be immortal, and sinless in Yah's eyes. Had 'Adam or Chawa ate from the tree of life, they would have been made immortal, but because their sins were not covered up, they would be forced to live separated from Yah for eternity.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline RidesWithYah  
#3 Posted : Monday, April 26, 2010 1:59:21 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
What I've been wondering is whether this was a metaphorical tree or like the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad, a ppears to be an actual tree which would have a real consequence?


I'm fortunate enough to know Joshua Collins, who wrote this book.

Although it's a difficult read, it's well worth the investment. His argument is that the two "trees" were actually what we would call a "tree", and a "vine", intertwined. Eating of the vine caused Eve to lose her unborn child. This is why their shame led to covering their private parts, why the punishment was coupled with childbirth (pain), and why Adam was sentenced to labor in the soil (that held the blood of his son). Also puts an interesting perspective on Yahshua referring to himself as the "Son of Man". The "hook" of the argument is that the Hebrew translated "to make one wise" in Genesis 3:6, is mistranslated. Check your Strong's -- "make" in Gen 3:6 is not numbered (the most common word translated make is #6213), and "wise" is NOT 2450 (chakam, meaning wise) it's 7919 "sakal" which is spelled almost IDENTICALLY with 7921 "shakol", meaning "to miscarry, suffer abortion".

Adam and Eve seeing their child stillborn, as a result of their "choice" to disobey, would certainly have been an eye-opening experience.

Highly recommend you check it out, if you're investigating the trees.

In His Love,
RWY.
Offline J&M  
#4 Posted : Monday, April 26, 2010 10:34:37 PM(UTC)
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I would prefer to see the garden as having two layers, a spiritual layer containing the Tree of Life, and a physical layer containing the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This then reflects the dual nature of Adam (dust and neshama)

He would then have had physical food for the physical part and spiritual 'life' from the spiritual tree.

When he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge, his 'eyes were opened' and his knowledge became based upon what he could 'physically' see as opossed to that of his neshama connection to YHWH (in the form of the tree off life)

"Dying thous shalt die" can be looked at as emphasising the death in Hebrew, but it could also refer to two deaths, a spiritual death and a longer drawn out physical death.

To me, if this was emphatic, then total death would have been instantaneous. But it was not intantaneous in the physical sense.

In the 'cool of the day' is a most awful translation, it being the 'ruarch' of the 'yom' in Hebrew

a 'Yom' has very little meaning to YHWH who is timeless, we define it (physically) as one revolution of the planet earth, but we know that 'yom' in Genesis 1 had a different (spiritual) connotation.

It should be noted at this point that Adam could not 'see' YHWH only hear Him. I would suggest that what this is trying to put across is that YHWH was in the 'spiritual layer' of Eden and Adam was now trapped in the physical layer, cut off from the tree of life because his neshama has been seriously damaged. The Adversary however, may well have been able to further enable Adam to get to the Tree of Life by some form of demonic possesion.

The woman confesses to being beguiled by the serpent and is thus instantly forgiven (see 1 John 1 v 9), but Adam blames the woman and YHWH for his plight. ONLY ADAM IS TO BE EXCLUDED FROM EDEN, there is no mention of the woman being excluded from Eden.....

Thus, under Torah, only men MUST attend the Temple Sacrifice....

The woman's fertility is increased, because death has changed the prevailing conditions, and Adam names the woman Chavah - giver of life.

YHWH makes the first blood sacrifice, and covers them with the bloody animal skins.


The woman is free to eat from the tree of life, but is ruled over by her husband who has not got access.
Offline James  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, April 27, 2010 3:17:51 AM(UTC)
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RidesWithYah wrote:
Although it's a difficult read, it's well worth the investment. His argument is that the two "trees" were actually what we would call a "tree", and a "vine", intertwined. Eating of the vine caused Eve to lose her unborn child. This is why their shame led to covering their private parts, why the punishment was coupled with childbirth (pain), and why Adam was sentenced to labor in the soil (that held the blood of his son). Also puts an interesting perspective on Yahshua referring to himself as the "Son of Man". The "hook" of the argument is that the Hebrew translated "to make one wise" in Genesis 3:6, is mistranslated. Check your Strong's -- "make" in Gen 3:6 is not numbered (the most common word translated make is #6213), and "wise" is NOT 2450 (chakam, meaning wise) it's 7919 "sakal" which is spelled almost IDENTICALLY with 7921 "shakol", meaning "to miscarry, suffer abortion".

Adam and Eve seeing their child stillborn, as a result of their "choice" to disobey, would certainly have been an eye-opening experience.

Highly recommend you check it out, if you're investigating the trees.

In His Love,
RWY.

I would have to disagree with this guy's interpretation here RWY. Genesis 3:6 reads:
Gen3:6 wrote:
The woman and wife (`issah) looked and saw (ra'ah - viewed and perceived) that indeed (kiy - surely and truly) the tree's (`es) food (ma'akal) was good (towb), and that indeed (kiy) it was desirable (ta'awah - satisfying a longing and craving) visually (`ayin - to the eye), and she coveted (hamad - usted for and desired) the tree's (`es) insights (sakal - wisdom and understanding, teaching and ability to be circumspect and prudent), so she grasped hold of (laqah - accepted, received, and took) some of (min - from) the fruit (pari) and ate (`akal - consumed) it. Moreover, she immediately (gama' - in addition she quickly) gave (natan) it to (la) her husband and man (`ish) who was with (i'm - near) her and he ate.


Now I don't have my Logos with me right now, so I can neither confirm nor deny that sakal and sakol are the same in the Hebrew, or that sakol means miscarry, but given the context of the sentence it makes no sense to translate it as such. She coveted the tree's miscarriage and grasped hold of some of the fruit and ate it.

Considering this is talking about the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, I'm inclined to think that she coveted the tree's insights, wisdom and understanding, teaching and ability to be circumspect and prudent, and not it's miscarriage.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:38:41 AM(UTC)
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I love the line of thought J&M has in this. different but logical - I would like to study it more.

Interestingly I thought of the famous "Man shall not live by bread alone..." I was just linking the symbols together in my head, how the tree that gives us life is Yahushua - the branch - the vine. The real problem that was dealt with is man's physical godlike nature - in the sense that we rely on our knowledge of good and evil and not Yah's. Yahushua removed the stain of that - because obviously imperfection is annihilated in Yah's presence - but more so He opened the way for us to once again lean on Yah's knowledge of good and evil (Torah) - and leave ours behind.

Just some thoughts.
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline PerryM  
#7 Posted : Friday, April 30, 2010 5:09:48 AM(UTC)
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Isn’t “sakol” vs “sakal” just another layer of meaning? Our wisdom and understanding come through the mistakes and bad times of our lives which could be construed as the miscarriages on our path of understanding.
Offline RidesWithYah  
#8 Posted : Thursday, August 5, 2010 1:01:00 AM(UTC)
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Joshua Collins, who I wrote about above, has released another book.

Send me a PM with your address, and I'll be glad to send you a copy.
It's well worth the time to read.

UserPostedImage
Offline Matthew  
#9 Posted : Thursday, August 5, 2010 5:56:57 AM(UTC)
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RWY, the book looks interesting.

From the product description and the reviews it seems as if the book is implying that Satan planed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, even though Genesis 2:9 seems to say that Yahweh had planted it: (NIV) And Yahweh made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The author seems to base Satan planting it on what Matthew 15:13 says.

Here's Matthew 15:10-20 in context: (NIV) Yahshua called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'" Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?" He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." Peter said, "Explain the parable to us." "Are you still so dull?" Yahshua asked them. "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'"

But what gets me (confused that is) is this:

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Genesis 3:21-22 Yahweh made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. And Yahweh said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

If eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil caused Man to become like Him, by knowing good and evil, why would Man be banished from eating of the physical tree of life?
Offline kp  
#10 Posted : Thursday, August 5, 2010 8:17:04 AM(UTC)
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It seems to me (for what it's worth) that the fruit of the "tree of life" was symbolic, just as the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was. That is, it wasn't the tree itself that caused one to live or die, but that which it represented. Eating the fruit of the tree of life while spiritually dead would have been tantamount to trying to attain eternal life in one's mortal body--a body that was never designed to go there. You can drive a Ford down the street: you can't drive it to the moon, and if you figured out how to launch the family sedan skyward, the result would be disaster.

Perhaps this entry from The Owner's Manual will be of assistance:

Quote:
(618) Realize that nothing good comes from evil. “Then Yahweh, God, said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever’—therefore Yahweh, God, sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.” (Genesis 3:22-24) There was another tree of note in the Garden, one called the “tree of life.” Though it hadn’t been declared off limits like the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it was now, in the wake of Adam’s and Eve’s sin, deemed a hazard to them, something from which they had to be kept isolated for their own good. (It is pretty obvious that seeing the fallen couple live “forever” in their sinful, mortal bodies wouldn’t have done Yahweh any harm at all. This move was made for Adam’s benefit.)

This was harder for me to understand when I was in my twenties than it is now, forty years later. Although attaining eternal life is still one of my goals, I can no longer pretend that I’d like to live forever in this body. Truth be told, it’s falling apart—and it’s going to get worse, not better, before I finally die or get raptured. This mortal frame I inherited from my father Adam is not built to last. In I Corinthians 15, Paul describes the solution God has devised: we will leave behind these old, mortal, corruptible bodies and inherit new, immortal bodies—bodies designed and built to endure for eternity in fellowship with our Creator.

The world as we know it is a lame duck—it’s on it’s way out. But transitioning between this doomed environment and the eternal state, Yahweh speaks of a one-thousand-year long period in which mortal man will once again be given an Eden-like world in which to live—certainly in Zion (and most likely everywhere else Yahweh is honored). The world will be healed by a “river of life” (actually, Zechariah mentions two of them) emanating from beneath the Millennial Temple. There are trees growing alongside this river: “Along the bank of the river, on this side and that, will grow all kinds of trees used for food; their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. They will bear fruit every month, because their water flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine.’” (Ezekiel 47:12) The prophets speak of a time when longevity—as in the days before the flood—will be restored. It is clear that these rivers and the trees that grow on their banks have something to do with that. But it is not said that these are “trees of life,” though they bear a family resemblance. Longevity is not remotely the same thing as eternal life—mortal men will still grow old, for that’s the curse they’ve inherited from Adam. But as the Millennial Kingdom draws to an end, every child of Yahweh will have received his or her immortal body. Death will have been rendered obsolete.

It is only after we have received these immortal, “spiritual” bodies that the tree of life could cease being a curse to us. And so it is that it reappears in the last chapter of the Bible as John describes the post-Millennial heavenly state—an eternal “place” called the New Jerusalem. “And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.” (Revelation 22:1-2) In the New Jerusalem, every soul who has chosen to be made alive by the indwelling of Yahweh’s Spirit will discover that the tree of life no longer poses a danger. The sustenance and healing it provides will go on forever. Because of Adam’s sin, mankind was evicted from the Garden: nothing good comes from evil. But the converse is also true. Through Yahshua’s atonement, mankind can regain paradise: nothing evil comes from good.

kp
Offline RidesWithYah  
#11 Posted : Thursday, August 5, 2010 2:11:27 PM(UTC)
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Matthew, KP, all...

I'm not going to try to present his case in the forums, because I really wouldn't do it justice.
He's got good evidence, his theory makes a lot of pieces fit together neatly, and it isn't a hard read.

Seriously, nothing would make me happier than to mail several of these out to forum folks.
All I would ask in return is that you share your thoughts after reading it.
Just send me your address -- even international.

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