A friend has asked me to help understand how a loving God could permit those who revere Him and seek to serve Him faithfully to suffer after experiecing blessings. In this case a fellow who went from being worldly and a heavy drinker, and near to suicide, and as a last act turned to Messiah. He felt empowered to give up drinking and worldly habits and otherwise transform his life proclaiming the Good News and testifying what his Savior did in his life. Lately he's been struggling with mental health issues that have resulted in him struggling to function or remain clear headed.

I first thought of the book of Job/Yob as an example of one who knew fellowship and blessing from Yah only to later have that protection and blessing removed for a season. We know after seeking answers among his associates that he seeks answers from Yah and finds his answer not in reasoning but rather experienced fulfillment in his seeking by experiencing renewed fellowship.

I've read other apologetics on this question, but I'd love to hear your thoughts?

Edited by user Thursday, May 8, 2008 4:45:40 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Our mortal lives were never meant to be permanent, pain-free, or devoid of work or responsibility. They are, rather, opportunities to learn, to grow, to mature---to choose to walk with Yahweh or do something else. Even before Adam fell into sin, Yahweh gave him a job to do in the garden (and then gave him a wife to help him get it done). We tend to think of pain as a bad thing, but at its core, it's a gift: it teaches us to avoid injuring ourselves. Sometimes the feedback loop is more or less instantaneous: "Don't touch the stove; it will burn you." Sometimes it's more subtle: "That coughing you did with your first puff (and the pretty green color you turned) were telling you not to smoke cigarettes; they'll damage your body in the long run." A primary symptom of one of the most dreaded diseases known to man (leprosy, a.k.a. Hansen's Disease) is that the sufferer can no longer feel pain, and as a result, tends to suffer more injuries, and more severe injuries, than he otherwise would.

But the phenomenon of pain and suffering is far more complicated than that. In my experience, suffering can in itself be the preparation we need to do the job Yahweh has prepared for us. When my wife was young---in her twenties and early thirties---she had four knee surgeries and various and sundry other operations and experiences requiring hospitalization. She's a godly woman, and so it always seemed a bit unfair to me. But then we started adopting children---and not just healthy kids, but some real basket cases. By the time we got to that point, she had learned a depth of compassion and empathy for suffering kids that few people would understand. In short, her pain had prepared her for the job God had for her to do, and she did it well. In fact, without health problems of her own, she wouldn't have had a clue what those kids were going through.

We have a choice: we can either bitch and moan when things are not perfect in our world, or we can thank God for the opportunity to prepare for whatever He's got lined up for us next. It's our call.

kp

I wonder what it is that makes people want to blame Yahuweh (or "God" in most cases). Does it have to do with our culture and its total lack or responsibility for oneself? Is it the way we are raised?

I wonder this because (and I don't say this to brag), as far as I can remember, I have never once blamed Yahuweh for anything bad that has happened in my life. It hasn't even crossed my mind. I've had my fair share of issues as well, most dealing with my wife. Even when I was in the military and she left and started talking about divorce (and I had no clue as to why) I never thought to blame Yahuweh, instead, I turned more toward him. After our baby was born and my wife became psychotic, again I did not even think about blaming Yahuweh. And, with our most recent incident (which I've already related), again I never thought to blame Yahuweh, instead I talk to him more.

So, for me, it is hard to understand exactly why someone would blame Yahuweh or even have to fight the urge to. Where does that come from? It seems to me that our society refuses to accept responsibility for our actions and choices. But, they don't hesistate to take credit for the good things. I am just the opposite, I take responsibility for the bad things that happen based on my choices, and if I had no control over (as with my wife's health) then I see it has some other factor (another person's choices, the evironment, etc). But, when something good happens, or I do well, then I thank Yahuweh and give him the credit. I don't count, but I know I thank Yahuweh many times every day, even when bad things happen.

What makes that difference?

While I was writing my initial post I was going to say that you, Theo, should maybe ask KP for wisdom on this situation but I didn't want to put him on the spot, nevertheless he responded to the topic very quickly and spoke from experience he has seen his wife go through, which prepared her for adopting children with disabilities.

I have been learning to realise that any suffering I do is for a greater reason, unless of course self inflicted, but even then I try learn from my mistakes.

I once disobeyed my father after warning not to touch the red hot stove, needless to say the consequence was as expected :) I was very young then, I remember it well, it's not something I willfully want to experience again.

I hope this might help.

When Moses was asking YHWH to reconsider the destruction of the Israelites after they rejected the findings of Joshua and Caleb (Num 14:29),
YHWH commuted the sentence so that only those under 20 yrs of age would enter the land.

I may be mistaken but I have always understood that from 20 was the age of accountability in ones own right. Until that the parental units had/have a considerable influence!!!

Jane

I wonder why you would say this person is blaming Yahuweh at all. That's something I don't see in the oringinal message. Only that the friend is wondering why suffering is allowed to exist in the world. That does not automatically mean that one blames something, or someone for their troubles. Only that they are coming to terms with what they are undergoing.

As to why suffering exists, perhaps this will help.

"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ which is far better.

Nevertheless to remain in the fless is more needful to you."

Philippians 1:21-24

Death is the end of our suffering and the begining of our eternal rest in Yahuweh. But - for as long as we are on this earth our suffering is not for nothing. There is a purpose for us being still in the body - otherwise we would have been taken. Our suffering can change us, create a whole new person - for better or worse. It shapes who we are, and brings us closer to the divine. Through this renewed union we can touch the lives of others.

Yes, some days it may seem easier to wish for that eternal rest - but there are others that need us - who have been given to us to help.

What prompted me to ask that question, Lucretia, was not the original post, but what Tiffany said:

Peace and Love Everyone,
"Time and chance will befall man" Proverbs?

Your Loving Brother,
Michael Browell

without aplogtics,
it is known simply
nutritional deficiencies cause most known dis-eases, including especially mental unclearness to bipolllar.
According to Scripture, the dunglords have deceived the whole world, including practically all churches(I've been kicked out of churches for bringing up the KNOWN CURE FOR LEUKEMIA and pointing out that the AMA BURIED IT (can't patent it) UNDER ORDERS FROM THE DUNGLORDS.

The nutritional aspects of health are totally overridden by spirituals - in an instant possibly.
The physical is subject to the spiritual - faith can literally move or remove staggering obstacles.

Still, the CURE for every dis-ease has been known since before 1950, then the dunglords made the CURES ILLEGAL
because they can't be patented (they're all NATURAL AND INEXPENSIVE).

Accne, auutissm, Luukeemia, beast cncr, arrrthritiis, diabbbbtes, addddd, -hd, skkkin cncccr, poooor visssion,
dannndruf, hiiiiii bud pessure, shhhhinggles ..... ALL CURABLE, DECADES AGO, NATURALLY, inexpensive.

People are so deceived, they often won't even SEEK and ye shall find-their brain trusts man instead of Yahweh


email or post questions for the known cure for anything.... even dowwwwn s. sYdome.!

Hello and welcome to the forum glory2glorious. Thanks for sharing your insights.



I think love is composed of both; as heart attitudes usually preceeds and generates heart actions.

;-) Made ya' think, huh? Blessings! Thanks for the welcome, as well. I'm a long time student of Yada Yahweh/POD, and have had the absolute honor of coming to know one or two of you, in days gone by. It's been a while, however. So though you, Yada, Ken and where exactly is Robin? -- have been out of sight you've not been out of mind and most certainly not far from my prayers.

Hummm ... now there's a point to ponder. Heart attitudes -- but of course, those would be the attitudes of a heart right with Yahweh, huh? Much love.

me

If I most humbly might, Theo, kp -- indeed I do believe that children are set apart to God, at least up to the age of accountability as is taught in Judaism, and which is at what age? 13? Isn't it even written in the Psalms that God Himself knits us together within our mother's wombs? Isn't it written that He knows our innermost beings before we so much as take our first breath? Didn't Yahushua say that it would better for one to have a millstone tied around his neck and his body thrown into the deepest part of the sea than for anyone to cause one of the "little ones" to sin? How attentive He is regarding children, and this isn't contigent upon whether one is born whole or what the world deems abnormal. How could anything that God creates, such as a child, ever be considered less than a miracle? And of course, there are so many more Biblical references, regarding children, that one need not wonder, for surely it seems clear.

You guys are really pulling at my heartstrings here, even inasmuchas it is that I have a disabled child, and one whom I consider no less than a gift! I stand in awe of Yahweh, even on a daily basis, to think that He found me worthy enough, trustworthy enough, to care for this most defenseless one, and for as long as He (God) has determined that he (Stephen) shall live, and everyday and every month through each passing year that he does live, that his heart doesn't fail him, is no less a gift! But even more than that, I get to take part in God's purpose for him, which has thus far been to educate people who might otherwise abort or abandon such as him! Because there is Stephen so many unborn babies have been given a chance to live and in one way or another bless those around them.

Please forgive me, as I may tend to get lengthy, but God never does cease to amaze me, and one of my most favorite things to do is to share in the wonder of HIM! So if I may continue ... regarding the above post by Theo, regarding his friend. Can you tell us more about him? Is he on any meds? Does he have a chemical imbalance? Are there particular tests or trials going on in his life? Or perhaps he's having a reaction to a prescribed medication that's adversely affecting him?

I come from a long line of alcoholics, and have seen the devastation. My mother was an alcoholic, and dead at but age 34. She so played games with God, through the last few years of her life spent fighting cancer. One moment she'd be on death's door and begging God's mercy, and the next she'd be out the door, to the amazement of her myriad of doctors who couldn't imagine how it was she'd survived! God's mercy. But no sooner than she would make such a miraculous recovery than she would be off to the bars and the men again. I need a moment here .. to reflect ...

I sometimes think God must have taken her while He yet had her -- in one of her repentent states, and while the three of us -- however orphaned -- were, for the first time in a very long time, safe, warm and dry. I want to talk about this a bit too, inasmuchas it was so very much God who made right so many horrible wrongs, and made even all of the horrors so very worthwhile.

As I mentioned, previously, upon her death the three of us were orphaned, but God moved within the heart of my brother's teacher who, along with his wife, decided to move their own three children over and us in to their home. In order to do this they had to move literal mountains, for all of the legalities involved. He was a mere teacher and they did have three kids of their own. We would all need beds of our own and so many other things. For a long while there it was one Washington State courtroom after another, but eventually, if only temporarily, they were allowed to keep us, but not to adobt us, as the state found it in our best interest that we be placed with family. Neither the Wilson's nor the three of us had any say in the matter and family was found, albeit in another state, California, and nevermind that we barely knew them and that for the first time in our lives we would be separated, to boot, which was like death to me, being the oldest and more like a mother than sibling. Taking care of my brother and sister was all that I knew. Well, that and God. I knew Him then, too.

To make a rather long story short, we weren't allowed to stay with the Wilson's and so off we went, to California to live separate and apart, and for a very long time it didn't make much sense to me, but I had no choice but to continue to trust God to know what He was doing in our lives even if it didn't make sense (and was quite painful and frightening besides) to me. Many years later, upon contacting the Wilson's who I yet hold very near and dear to my heart I came to realize God's purpose in everything, which is to say that though we were the Wilson's first foster children we were most certainly not their last! After the three of us they went on to take in more than 160 frightened, lost, abused abandoned children such as we were, and I well understood then that but for the three of us, that would never have happened. But for the three of us, and the fact that we weren't allowed to stay, there wouldn't have come to be those so many other children who couldn't have been but blessed to have been so loved and cared for by the Wilson's. So though we may have hurt, and so though we may have been frightened, and so though we were not allowed to remain together I can so clearly see and praise God for His higher, all knowing, purpose, and there is not so much as one moment that I would change. Not one.

No, He does not ever cease to amaze me.

Shalom All,

Welcome to the forum, glory2glorious, and may you be be blessed with the Set-Apart Spirit in your search for Truth.

Shalom All,

A fascinating and engrossing thread! Having lost a brother at age 39 and both parents to disease, and seeing the affliction of cancer, diabetes and myriad other diseases and accidents on family, friends, acquaintances and strangers, questions like these are bound to arise.

In my experience, despite the sorrows and challenges, I have always contended that these things teach us and help shape our character. The unholy trinity of "I, me and myself" eventually gives way to thinking of others and their circumstances, and the role of the Creator in all of this.

All I can say is that we are on a burning cruise ship (we started the fire) that has lost it's Captain (we sacked Him for being a party-pooper) and which is beginning to list into the water. We've been told by the experienced Captain to abandon ship and get into a lifeboat. If we believe Him we follow His instructions. Those remaining on the ship fall into five groups: those who still think the ship will not sink; those who think that there are enough lifeboats and time to get in and are in no particular hurry whilst they stay to fight or observe the fire; those who are panicking and diving into the water; those who know of the fire but are trying to find safer spots on the ship to survive fearing the small lifeboats in the water; and those who are completely unaware of the problems facing the ship.

Since we believed the experienced Captain and have gone onto the lifeboats, we can coax people onto the lifeboats despite our own fears, worries and losses. It's nerve-wrecking as the heat from the ship's fire is becoming unbearable, the water is freezing cold and the presence of sharks are not helping.

At least we are safe, and we now can reach out our hands to those in need. Putting our immediate concerns aside to save others is what matters now, and we have to shout out loud to be heard over the mayhem that is ensuing. There will always be time for grief in between saves, but each new person on the lifeboat is cause for rejoicing.

However, there are still those who blame the Captain for all the problems, forgetting or ignoring the fact that it was some of us who set fire to His ship while we partied with wild abandon in the first place!

When we look at the pain and suffering the Captain endured for us, our losses pale into comparison. He was not only the Captain but also the cruiseline owner and this is His flagship, and He sees the people onboard as His family despite being sacked by most of them. For each of our personal loss, His grief is multiplied severalfold as everyone could have been like family members to Him.

If we remember He volunteered to give Himself up and endure so much pain for us, we should be thankful that we have not lost as much as He has. It was in giving Himself completely that He saved us, and by focusing on others rather than self we can do better with our lives as well and cope with our pains.

We leave the lives of the lost innocents in His care as He will certainly know what to do with them. As for the unrepentant firestarters, we also know their sad fate, and we trust that He will deal mercifully and graciously with each one of us who are remorseful and have distanced ourselves from the firestarters. We will do better in His eyes if we had tried to reach out to people in all the five groups rather than keep the lifeboats to ourselves.

Pardon the above story but it is somewhat a reflection of how I am coping with loss in my life.

G2G, you can always use any story on this site. I am far from perfect but I am comforted with His presence and His people here. So you are good-to-go now that you have been here. Wait till you see the lighter side of me. :-)

It may be "Just a thought.."...but it is beautiful. Thank you for sharing.

Shalom Suffering Servants,
I know that until about May, I begged Yah to end My Life. He responded by leading me here.
The Adversary is P.O. ed that we have peace. So trials WIll Come!!! The apostle Ya'cob i believe said to Revel in adversary. I know that this to shall pass.

Keep Your Chin Up!!
OUR FATHER HAS OUR BACKS!!

We "guys" and our car metaphors. In the book I'm working on, here's what I was thinking about how the body, soul, and spirit work together...



kp