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Offline cgb2  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:22:36 PM(UTC)
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Thought I'd start a new topic since we were somewhat hijacking the "God Damn Religion" thread discussing Louisiana bill to allowed concealed carry in churches.

Interesting discussion so far. Let's discuss further the "turn the other cheek" vs "if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one".

Beside the individual dillemma, perhaps also discussion of politics in places that disallow that. Wicked rulers who monopolize their power by disarming their subjects. Historically common it's done prior to mass murder of their subjects, and often in the name of public safety.
http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#chart
Is gun control wicked or good?

Is self defense wrong or right per Yahweh's word?
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2010 2:34:45 PM(UTC)
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I heard an interesting story on this from a preacher once - that to turn the other cheek was to give the person hitting you no other option but to treat you as an equal.

The example given was it was legal for you to hit a slave with one side of your hand (cant remember which way round) but to turn the other cheek would mean they would have to hit you with the other side. This by law made you equal to them and therefor free.

Now I have no idea the factual evidence for this at all - I just thought I would throw it out there for it to be torn apart lol
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Richard  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:08:52 PM(UTC)
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Why do you suppose the Master prefaced the "other cheek" statement with, "Do not resist an evil person" right after He mentioned that we had heard, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth"? Was He just talking to hear Himself speak, or was He not making a specific point for the children of the Kingdom? When Shim'own hacked off one of the mob member's ears, Yahushua did not exclaim, "Way to go, Shim'own!" Rather, He told him to put his weapon away and healed the impulsive disciple's damage. Nowhere do we find where any of the prepared and sent out messengers taught or demonstrated that resorting to violence is approved or tolerable. In absence of such teaching, I think it safe to go what was actually recorded: "Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also."

Do we have the courage to do that, or shall we mask our fear of losing things and/or face behind violent outbursts of "justifiable self-defense"?

Interesting point about the two sides of the hand. It actually makes sense in an oriental sort of way. I read a book many, many moons ago entitled Orientalisms in the Bible. It was fascinating.
Offline cgb2  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:09:23 PM(UTC)
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>I heard an interesting story on this from a preacher once - that to turn the other cheek was to give the person hitting you no other option but to treat you as an equal.

Wiki supports what you're saying (Literal interpretation):
http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Turning_the_other_cheek

TWTY Mat 5:38-42
http://www.thewaytoyahuw...ersion1/matthew#chapter5

TWTY Luke 6:27-31?
http://www.thewaytoyahuw.../version1/lucus#chapter6

Edited by user Wednesday, June 23, 2010 2:38:05 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline cgb2  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:17:00 PM(UTC)
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TWTY Luke 22:35-38
http://www.thewaytoyahuw...version1/lucus#chapter22

Edited by user Wednesday, June 23, 2010 2:38:44 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline cgb2  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:33:55 PM(UTC)
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Some quick verses from article ( http://www.biblicalselfdefense.com/ )

Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.

Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'

Genesis 9:5-6 5 And surely your blood, the blood of your lives, will I require; At the hand of every beast will I require it. And at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man's brother, will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: For in the image of God made he man.

Exodus 22:2-3 2 "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. 3 "If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed.

Nehemiah 4 17 Those who were rebuilding the wall and those who carried burdens took their load with one hand doing the work and the other holding a weapon. 18 As for the builders, each wore his sword girded at his side as he built, while the trumpeter stood near me. ... 21 So we carried on the work with half of them holding spears from dawn until the stars appeared. .... 23 So neither I, my brothers, my servants, nor the men of the guard who followed me, none of us removed our clothes, each took his weapon even to the water.

Esther 8:11-12 11 By these letters the king permitted the Jews who were in every city to gather together and protect their lives -- to destroy, kill, and annihilate all the forces of any people or province that would assault them, both little children and women, and to plunder their possessions...

Esther 9:1-5 ...the Jews themselves overpowered those who hated them. 2 The Jews gathered together in their cities throughout all the provinces of King Ahasuerus to lay hands on those who sought their harm. And no one could withstand them, because fear of them fell upon all people.... 5 Thus the Jews defeated all their enemies with the stroke of the sword, with slaughter and destruction,

Samuel 13:19-22 9 Now there was no blacksmith to be found throughout all the land of Israel, for the Philistines said, "Lest the Hebrews make swords or spears."... 22 So it came about, on the day of battle, that there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people who were with Saul and Jonathan. But they were found with Saul and Jonathan his son.

Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

Psalm 18:34 He teaches my hands to make war, So that my arms can bend a bow of bronze


Offline cgb2  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:53:23 PM(UTC)
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flintface wrote:

...Do we have the courage to do that, or shall we mask our fear of losing things and/or face behind violent outbursts of "justifiable self-defense"?


I would be more restrained with self-defense, but far more agressive about loved-ones-defense, especially wife and children.

Edited by user Wednesday, June 23, 2010 4:43:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline RobGuy  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, June 23, 2010 10:39:31 AM(UTC)
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Here's my 2 cents.

If someone was beating my wife right in front of me (in this hypothetical situation, I'm married), I do NOT think Yahshua wants me to say "here's my daughter, beat her too." I think rather, it is a MINDSET he wants us to adopt, one of mercy and compassion, which is to say that ultimately, we are relying upon Yahweh to dispense justice. It's not our job to be "vigilantes." We are more to be doctors, treating whoever falls within our influence.

For instance, would a paramedic refuse to treat the drunk driver responsible for the accident he has been called to? Absolutely not! He would do his best to save that life as he would any other. We aren't called to condemn others, but love them unconditionally. As much as we have been forgiven, so we are to forgive others.

Additionally, we should look at the context of the situation between Shim'own and the mob guy. Shim'own was in fact trying to, though with a good intent and unwittingly, circumvent Yahweh's will and the means to salvation for all mankind. Yahshua's sacrifice HAD to occur in order for the world to be forgiven. It was of paramount importance that this occurred.

Important to is Yahshua's reaction. As was stated earlier, he healed the man and rebuked Shim'own's action. As Flintface stated:
Quote:
Nowhere do we find where any of the prepared and sent out messengers taught or demonstrated that resorting to violence is approved or tolerable. In absence of such teaching, I think it safe to go what was actually recorded: "Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also."


Eloquently put. I couldn't agree more.

I would also like to bring to mind the Apostles actions later on in life, as it applies directly to this. When they were persecuted, they rejoiced! They praised Yah for giving them the honored position of being persecuted for His name's sake. Paul stayed in prison to save the guards. They preached and praised Yah with their voices AND their actions before, during, and after their persecutions. And I think that is something we could all work on. Or maybe it's only me who needs help with that...
Offline Bridget  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:41:47 PM(UTC)
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This is a tough one for me.

We shouldn't kill, but it's okay to watch someone get killed when we can stop it?

Who is to say we have to kill? How about I just shoot to Stop the attack? Seriously...what if some wacked out crackhead is abound...?

You can't play with an animal.

I mean, I'm okay with dying...on earth....but...can I shoot someone in the legs and stop the madness??





Offline bigritchie  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, June 23, 2010 5:00:36 PM(UTC)
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I will take a swing at this one.

Eye for eye, Tooth for tooth was a governmental court issue.

The Rabbi's has turned it into "Billy punched me in the face therefor I can punch him back in the face"

I do not really have the time to go into the entire thing right now, but I think he was interpreting the Torah and correcting the teachings of the Pharisees at the same time.

I humbly suggest he was saying "if someone steals your Ox, do not steal their ox in retaliation, let the proper authorities deal with it and make judgment according to Torah"
Offline Richard  
#11 Posted : Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:06:37 AM(UTC)
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RobGuy wrote:
I think rather, it is a MINDSET he wants us to adopt, one of mercy and compassion, which is to say that ultimately, we are relying upon Yahweh to dispense justice.


You're right on, in my opinion. All His ways are peace.

I also agree with those who say that we ought not to just stand there and watch someone get beaten, raped, or whatever. However, there is a proverb which compares someone who intervenes in an argument in which he is not directly involved to someone who picks up a dog by its ears. Any police officer who has answered a domestic violence call will tell you that the proverb is absolutely the truth. Husband smacks wife, leaving bruises and cuts; police try to arrest the husband; the battered wife attacks the police who are there to help her. So we would have to rely on Yahuweh's wisdom to know when to step in and when to walk on by.

I'm with RobGuy here. I need to walk with my Father, meditating on His words and ways as often as I will. Then, if such a situation arises, I will have less difficulty discerning His instructions for the moment.

Richard
Offline Richard  
#12 Posted : Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:08:02 AM(UTC)
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bigritchie wrote:
I will take a swing at this one.

Eye for eye, Tooth for tooth was a governmental court issue.

The Rabbi's has turned it into "Billy punched me in the face therefor I can punch him back in the face"

I do not really have the time to go into the entire thing right now, but I think he was interpreting the Torah and correcting the teachings of the Pharisees at the same time.

I humbly suggest he was saying "if someone steals your Ox, do not steal their ox in retaliation, let the proper authorities deal with it and make judgment according to Torah"


Thank you, BigRitchie. Good point.
Offline kp  
#13 Posted : Thursday, June 24, 2010 9:04:34 AM(UTC)
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Looking at a specific theoretical case through the eyes of the Torah may prove helpful. This is from The Owner's Manual, Vol II, chapter 11:

Quote:
(874) Evil inflicted is to be paid back with the equivalent evil. “If a man causes disfigurement of his neighbor, as he has done, so shall it be done to him—fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he has caused disfigurement of a man, so shall it be done to him.” (Leviticus 24:19-20) Whether through malice or negligence, injuries inflicted are to be met with payment in kind. The stark logic and equity of God’s law can be somewhat startling when compared with the anemic shadow we see in our own legal statutes. Consider this hypothetical scenario: a guy walks into a bar (no, this isn’t the beginning of a joke) and has a few too many beers. Another patron comes in and says something that offends him, so our drunken subject expresses his opinion to the contrary with a pool cue, breaking the man’s arm.

Under our laws, he might be arrested for being drunk and disorderly with a side order of assault, jailed for a month at taxpayer’ expense, slapped with a fine (which goes to the county, not the victim), and released on parole (again, at taxpayers’ expense). The victim, meanwhile, goes to the hospital to get his arm set, misses four days of work, sticks his insurance company with the bill (after paying a hefty deductible), and then weighs the option of hiring a lawyer to sue his assailant for damages, deciding in the end that since the inebriate with the pool cue is probably as broke as he is stupid, suing him would be an expensive exercise in futility. The insurance company spreads out their loss over the future premiums of a hundred thousand policy holders, the county uses the perp’s fine to cover court costs and police salaries, and the victim’s employer builds the cost of his recovery time into the price of their product, passing it on to you and me.

Yahweh’s law works a bit differently. The witnesses would take the offender to the town’s elders and explain what happened. Upon confirmation of the facts, he would be required to (1) pay out of his own pocket all of his victim’s medical expenses; (2) make good the loss of income the victim (or his employer) would have incurred due to his injuries (see Mitzvah #299, Exodus 21:18-19); and then (3) have his own arm broken with a pool cue. Direct, just, and dare I say, downright poetic. At this point, of course, the perp (having sobered up) is thinking to himself, I think I’m losing my taste for beer. Thank God I didn’t shoot him in the kneecap.

The whole thing could have turned out quite differently under our laws, of course. Yahweh’s instructions prevent this scenario as well: the victim does decide to sue, and hires the slickest lawyer he can find. He wins his civil case and is awarded four thousand dollars in actual damages (though neither his insurance company or employer ever get reimbursed for their expenses) and four million in punitive damages. The offender’s insurance company negotiates it down to two point five mil and passes the loss on to their policyholders. Justice has not been served here. It has been mugged and left for dead on the sidewalk.

The inevitable spiritual application looks like this: if your handling of spiritual matters (doctrine, exegesis, interpretation, etc.) is used maliciously or negligently to harm or exert control, hindering someone’s search for God’s truth, expect the “weapons” you use to be turned back against you. I know you’re probably getting tired of hearing me say this, but religion is often the single biggest impediment to forming a relationship with Yahweh. If your philosophy blinds your brother to the truth of Yahweh’s love, you’d better start getting used to life in the dark.


kp
Offline bitnet  
#14 Posted : Friday, June 25, 2010 5:27:41 AM(UTC)
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Shabbat Shalom,

And there it is... wisdom again from Abba Yahweh through brother KP. But what about wars? I think the issue is whether and how we should defend ourselves. Other than the obvious choice -- running -- is it wrong to defend ourselves? I think Scripture has shown many instances where His people have to defend themselves against many enemies, even taking the offense against them in some instances. Is this applicable today? Why not? I see WWII as an example of how to resolve such issues, and the Marshall Plan, flawed as it was, did enable the victors to rebuild themselves and the world. But should we choose to fight at all or simply submit and let Yahweh take matters into His hands at the appointed time? Simply submitting to Yahweh seems to be the solution at the end time when 200 million enemies surround Israel.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Richard  
#15 Posted : Friday, June 25, 2010 10:03:14 AM(UTC)
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This is great stuff. Thank you, everyone who has chipped in to the discussion.

I have my own opinion about war. We have been called out of this world's way of doing things. We have been set free from the political institutions of man. We have been blessed with the opportunity to hang out with Yahuweh, to learn His Word directly from Him. Therefore, the cares of this world's governments are none of my concern.

For example, when Yahushua called one young man, the fellow answered, "Master, let me go bury my dad first." Yahushua replied, "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead." In other words, once we've been called to follow Him, we ought not waste our time continuing to do the things those who have not joined with Him are doing.

Sure, "nation will rise against nation" because that is the nature of man and man's governments. It has nothing to do with us. We ought to let it alone. Yahuweh is the one who lifts up one ruler and deposes another according to His will. The guns and other weaponry of man have nothing to do with the final outcome of any war or skirmish.

As touching the examples you provided, Ken, I agree with you that our "justice system" is far removed from Yahuweh's written standard, and we are all the worse off for it.
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