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User is suspended until 6/17/2124 4:37:23 PM(UTC) BillyBobthethird  
#1 Posted : Saturday, May 15, 2010 8:37:19 AM(UTC)
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Since most believe we are now living in the last days who will tell us of the things to come on our world?


BBTT
Offline kp  
#2 Posted : Saturday, May 15, 2010 9:45:25 AM(UTC)
kp
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A good place to start: Future History (www.futuretruth.net)---in particular (as for your topic title), chapter 21.

kp
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#3 Posted : Monday, May 17, 2010 1:06:52 PM(UTC)
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Swalchy wrote:
The two witnesses in Revelation are Enoch and the prophet EliYah, who haven't returned to earth just yet



I believe the two witnesses are Moshe and EliYah, but not literally in the flesh, but rather they come in the spirit of Moshe and EliYah through the written word of Yahweh. They represent the Torah ( Moshe ) and the prophets ( EliYah ). We are given an illustration of this in Luke 16: 29-31 " Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. "

It is the written word of Yahweh that will declare judgement upon the world, it is the Torah ( the law ) and the prophets ( testimony/ prophecy ) that torments man. We can see this in Zechariah 5:1,3,4 " Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll ( scriptures ). And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.
Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it. I will bring it forth, saith Yahweh of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof. "


TBT
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#4 Posted : Monday, May 17, 2010 9:42:01 PM(UTC)
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I also love the fact that EliYah was circumcised and Enoch wasn't... almost like a witness for both factions as to say.
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline RidesWithYah  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, May 18, 2010 1:30:34 AM(UTC)
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I no longer read this as literal people for literal days.

I see the two witnesses as the Law and the Prophets, clothed in sackloth during the reign of the Catholic church...
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, May 18, 2010 2:45:29 AM(UTC)
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RidesWithYah wrote:
I no longer read this as literal people for literal days.

I see the two witnesses as the Law and the Prophets, clothed in sackloth during the reign of the Catholic church...


RWY, thats what I was trying to convey to Swalchy, the law being represented by Moshe as the law giver and the prophets being represented by EliYAh. I agree the the sackclothe is the diminishing of the word of Yahweh and the truth being surpressed ( killed ) and at the time of the end the truth of the word of Yahweh will be unsealed or rather revealed ( resurrected ) , turning the water ( the word ) to blood ( the judgement ). I also think that it could also be possible for Yahweh to call out and set apart two indivisuals on earth to be the two witnesses, but they come in the spirit of Moshe and EliYah as in the way John the Baptist has already illustrated in coming " in the spirit " of EliYah.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, May 18, 2010 2:55:25 AM(UTC)
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not sure I am too comfortable with assigning Yah's law to a man - kinda like saying The Law of Moshe instead of the Law of Yahweh... Moshe was just the messenger lol If we are going with the Law and the Prophets idea, I would say it would have to be, ya a prophet - but the only other human manifestation of the Law that there ever was - Yahushua...
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline kp  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, May 18, 2010 4:46:03 AM(UTC)
kp
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In my experience, although Yahweh uses symbols, metaphors, and even allegories all the time, there is always a literal component to His prophecies as well. So although the two witnesses may represent "the Law and the Prophets" (or, as I see it, "Israel and the gentile nations"), there will also be two literal people there in Jerusalem acting like mosquitoes at the Antichrist's picnic for 1,260 days, men who will be literally murdered, and who will literally rise from the dead three and a half days later. If there weren't a literal component upon which to hang Yahweh's symbols, we couldn't know anything about anything.

kp
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, May 18, 2010 1:12:20 PM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
In my experience, although Yahweh uses symbols, metaphors, and even allegories all the time, there is always a literal component to His prophecies as well. So although the two witnesses may represent "the Law and the Prophets" (or, as I see it, "Israel and the gentile nations"), there will also be two literal people there in Jerusalem acting like mosquitoes at the Antichrist's picnic for 1,260 days, men who will be literally murdered, and who will literally rise from the dead three and a half days later. If there weren't a literal component upon which to hang Yahweh's symbols, we couldn't know anything about anything.


Ken I get what your saying, my problem is where does it say two men, persons, or something that could only be a human person. Two witnesses could mean anything, I think we can hang Yahweh's symbols to his words to get the meaning , we should be able to show through his words who or what the two witnesses are or is. When we compare the verses from Revelation to the verses in Zechariah we are told about two olive trees, and the two candlesticks. What do they represent ? My quess, hope I'm right, lol , is that the candlesticks represent the word of Yahweh as the light unto the world. The olive trees represent the Ruach Qodesh which is the teacher of the word of Yahweh.

If I'm correct about what the olive trees, and the candlesticks represent we can say that the two witnesses are the word of Yahweh "the Law and the Prophets" being taught by Ruach Qodesh as the light unto the world ( opening up understanding ) during the last days. Can we hang this on the scriptures ? I've already given an illustration given to us in Luke 16 where Abraham tells Lazarus that his family has Moshe and the prophets as witnesses unto the truth. I'm sure you already know that the "the Law and the Prophets" refers to the word of Yahweh , but here are a few that show it.

Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

Rom.3:21 But now the righteousness of Yahweh without the law is manifested, being witnessed by ; "the law and the prophets"

Notice that the righteousness of Yahweh is being witnessed by his words "the law and the prophets".

TBT


Offline RidesWithYah  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, May 18, 2010 3:37:55 PM(UTC)
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In 533 AD, Emperor Justinian declared that the Bishop of Rome was the supreme head of christian churches throughout the known world. At the time, the empire was at war with Arian tribes who refused to recognize the Pope's supremacy. In 534, Rome defeated the Vandals. In 536, the Roman Empire recaptured the city of Rome, which had been taken by the Ostrogoths. The Ostrogoths attempted to retake the city, and the siege was not broken until March of 538, at which time Justinian's decree took effect.

Papal Rome remained in power until February 1798, when French General Louis Berthier captured Rome, and took Pope Pius VI back to France as prisoner. The 1,260 year reign (538-1798) of papal Rome forced the true church, spiritual Israel, into hiding to avoid persecution.

So "days" are "years". And the Law and the Prophets were in sackloth under the rule of the Roman Catholic Church.


Rev 12: 3
Quote:
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.


The mortal wound was the 1798 capture of Pope Pius by General Berthier. The wound was healed in 1929, when Mussolini returned control of the Vatican City State to the Pope through the Lateran Treaty. (The Vatican's “St. John's Lateran Cathedral” is the former palace of Emperor Constantine, and sits atop one of the seven hills of Rome.)
Offline lassie1865  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, May 18, 2010 4:30:18 PM(UTC)
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I would think that the 1,260 days for years (the catholic church/pope scenario) would be a "type", a foreshadowing of the actual 1,260 days of the Great Tribulation, etc.
Offline Prodigal  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, May 19, 2010 2:59:09 AM(UTC)
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RWY-

I was also intrigued by that line of thinking and kept turning it around in my head. I reread (or rather relistened to) FH and Ken addresses this theory specifically. The only reason one would change "days" to "years" is to make the catholic church into the anti-christ.

It could certainly be a foreshadowing, something I hadn't considered, but why the separation of 235 years until Yahushua's return (assuming that's still on time in 2033). I seem to recall His return being within the tribulation, not "days" (or "years") later.

Also, what happened to Daniel's 70th week?

As for the witnesses, if they aren't actual people, explain their bodies laying in the streets for the whole world to see for 3 1/2 days. People are said to be rejoicing over bodies. After 3 1/2 days of this, Yahuweh breathes the breadth of life into them and commands them to ascend to Him. So either this is one hell of a metaphor so dense that no one will be able to follow it, or it will be 2 living people. Whether it's actually EliYah and Enoch, or someone with the same personality is yet to be seen, but I think Ken makes a pretty good case for it being those two in particular.
Offline RidesWithYah  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, May 19, 2010 4:13:28 PM(UTC)
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Posts: 331

Quote:
The only reason one would change "days" to "years" is to make the catholic church into the anti-christ.


Or, to follow the example given by the fulfillment of prophecies in Daniel.

I've got a draft written up about Chapters 12 and 13; I'll try to post if I can figure out attachments.
As for the bodies laying in the streets and taken up in Chapter 11; I'm still noodling on that, but agree that the RCC being a "type" for what's yet to come does make sense.
Offline Prodigal  
#14 Posted : Thursday, May 20, 2010 1:06:57 AM(UTC)
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RWY-
I don't remember anywhere else in Daniel where days were translated into years. There were the weeks of years, but I think that was pretty clearly explained as being written differently than weeks of days. I guess I'll have to wait to read what you've got to see.

BBTT, please don't threadjack. It's rude. What do feasts have to do with the witnesses? And if you must advertise your site, just put it in your signature instead of in the thread where it looks like it actually contains an explanation for your vague comments.
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#15 Posted : Thursday, May 20, 2010 8:28:50 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
Papal Rome remained in power until February 1798, when French General Louis Berthier captured Rome, and took Pope Pius VI back to France as prisoner. The 1,260 year reign (538-1798) of papal Rome forced the true church, spiritual Israel, into hiding to avoid persecution.


"In 1793, the decree passed the French Assembly suppressing the Bible. Just three years after, a resolution was introduced into the Assembly going to supersede the decree, and giving toleration to the scriptures. That resolution lay on the table for six months, when it was taken up and passed without a dissenting vote .... On 17th June 1797." George Stoffs, Midnight Cry, Vol 4, Nos.5-6, 47

17 November 1793 - France votes the Bible and religion out. (Death)

17 June 1797 - France votes the Bible and religion back in. (Resurrected)

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