Matthew wrote:On what reasoning is point 1 based upon? Because as far as my feeble mind can comprehend I see infinite being infinte, with no beginning and no end, because if we say something infinite needs to grow then that means it had a starting point.
The mathematical concept of infinity is that it is unreachable, because it is never ending, in order to be never ending it must continue to grow, because if it does not grow, it has an end.
Just because something grows, doesn't mean it has a starting point, a plane, mathematically speaking, expands infinitely in all directions, we choose a point as the center for the purposes of using it, but that is not an origin, it is just an arbitrary center.
Matthew wrote:And as far as we are concerned Yahweh exists, always existed and will always exist, therefore something infinite cannot cease to grow, simply because it's not growing in the first place.
The reason that Yahweh created man to begin with, was so that he could grow, he was incomplete with out man. Just as we grow by having children, he grew by creating us. At least this is my understanding of why Yahweh created us.
Matthew wrote:But growing where we have to ask, growing in size, in knowledge, or maybe in love, etc.?
I don't see Yahweh infinite size, but rather having the ability to reach wherever He wants to and therefore in a way infnite in size. (try not get confused). I also see Yahweh infinite in possibilities, being able to accomplish anything He so desires. But then I get a philosophical question coming to mind: can Yah sin? No. So can Yah do anything He so desires based on the fact He cannot sin? Yes and no. I base this "yes" on the fact that Yah does not desire to sin, therefore He can do anything He desires, but also say "no" because, well, He cannot sin. Is Yahweh infinite in knowledge? Well we are told He doesn't know unbelievers, or does this just mean He knows about them but not on a personal bases? But I don't want to linger on this point because a migraine will most likely set in.
As the determiner of what Sin is Yahweh can not sin, because he doesn't desire to sin. I agree lingering on this is not really necessary and can be a bit mind wrecking, a bit like pondering time paradoxes, but it is a bit fun from time to time.
As far as Yahweh not knowing unbelievers, I believe the knowing is in a personal way, Yahweh knows they exist, but since they are not interested in knowing him, he is not interested in knowing them. For example there where many people in my graduating class, I knew of most of them, but I didn't know anything about them other than what I herd, I didn't take the time to know them, because I was not interested in it, and they weren't interested in knowing me.
Matthew wrote:And what about love? Well I don't think He required us in order to grow in love, but rather wanted to express and share His nature and desires with someone, with anybody who wanted to, and therefore came us with this magnificent creation and plan of redemption with us being the center for its purpose. It sounds rather like Yahweh was "lacking" companionship. So we ask: did Yahweh require to create us to "complete" Him, or did He create us because He so desired?
I don't think he requires us to grow in love, but he grows by sharing his love with us, just as we grow when we share our love with others. I was a loving person, but with out sharing that love with the people I care about, it does me know good, I grew incredibly when I meet my wife, and was able to share my love and life with her. So when Yahweh created us, and shared his love with us, he grew in some way.
Matthew wrote:Since we are created in His image, that of male, female and child (family) and that of free-will, in order to experience family we need to grow in love and respect, of which free-will is the agent to accomplish the process of that growing familial relationship we share.
Agreed, but for it to be a productive relationship, both parties must benifit from it, and so as we grow by forming a relationship with him, he grows by forming a relationship with us.
Matthew wrote:So is Yahweh infinite in love? Well, I see Him infinite in love, perfect and complete in love, but maybe Himself not personally feeling "complete" in love because in order to love you need someone to love! What's the point of being love and no one to share it with?
That's pretty much what I mean by growing, having love is one thing, but it doesn't do you much good until you share it. Not feeling complete, is what I mean by growing, he is growing more complete all the time.
Matthew wrote:PS: don't have time to really edit it so don't mind my rambling. It would be interesting to see other opinions by members!
This whole thread was based on the ramblings in my head, and ramblings with my friend over a few beers.
T-B-T wrote:Coming out of a false religion of 18 yrs.(LDS) this is right up my alley. This is mormonism at its best. They believe we just like Yahshua, start out as men and progress to the point that we become gods. Then we just as Yahshua, will create our own worlds that we will populate with our own spiritual children. Thank Yahweh for opening my eyes to the absurdity of this false doctrine and all the other false teachings of the mormon church. If you would like more info. on it, mormonism is a good place to start. I wouldn't waste my time though, unless your friend is a mormon and you want to get the info. so you can help them understand the absurdity of it.
My mother and sister both spent time in the LDS, when they married into a mormon church, so I got to learn a few things about LDS. Of course this was back in my agnostic/atheist days, and I did have fun arguing atheism with mormons, actually had a few of their door to door 'missionaries' questioning their 'faith' by the time they left. mormonism is pretty easy to tear part, but I digress. When my friend first mentioned this to me, I had the same feeling that it was eerily reminiscent of mormon teaching. My friend is not a mormon, and he doesn't really believe this, it was just a thought he had, like I said we where discussing it over a few beers, so it was more just musing on the topic and this came up as a 'possibility'. Personally I don't really agree with it, but it was an interesting proposition. We both kinda came to the conclusion that we really can't know, but i thought I would see if anyone in the forum had any thought on it.