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Offline Theophilus  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, August 5, 2009 12:55:52 PM(UTC)
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I hope you won't mind my coming at this question by way of sharing an exchange I had on another forum. The question being what was / is meant by the instructions in Exodus 22:18. I turned to TOM and found it in #334.

Quote:TOM
Quote:
(334) Do not allow anyone practicing witchcraft to live. “You shall not permit a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18) The Hebrew word translated “sorceress” is actually a verb, kasap, meaning to practice magic or sorcery, to use supernatural (i.e., demonic) powers. Listed among King Manasseh’s many sins was kasap: “he practiced soothsaying, used witchcraft and sorcery, and consulted mediums and spiritists.” (II Chronicles 33:6) Notice God’s instruction here: it’s not to disavow the use of sorcery. That’s taken care of elsewhere. Rather, it’s to make sure that no one who practices such things survives. Manasseh reigned for fifty-five years in Jerusalem and yet no one bothered to invoke Exodus 22:18. This means all of Judah was guilty under the law for not dealing with Manasseh’s sin.

It is also instructive to see the kind of things Yahweh promises to lump in with practicing sorcery when it comes time for judgment: “And I will come near you for judgment; I will be a swift witness against sorcerers (kasap), against adulterers, against perjurers, against those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans, and against those who turn away an alien—because they do not fear Me, says Yahweh of hosts.” (Malachi 3:5) One way or another, he’s just touched on Commandments 1, 3, 7, 8, 9, and 10. Sorcery is not only placing “another god” before Yahweh, it’s also the very essence of what it is to regard the name of Yahweh as worthlessness—which is what the Third Commandment is all about.


After sharing KP's commentary, I answered:

Quote:
My understanding is that the penal phase of this instruction was for the governance of theocratic Israel, although there likely are applications for one devoted to the God of Israel in not seeking magic solutions to our troubles. I can also see where Judah's crime might be in tolerating Manasseh's activities rather than for not explicating killing him, as the king seems to define the community, not be exiled from it.


This generated a reply that makes me wonder anew as to how this instruction was meant to be applied specifically with regard to King Manasseh:

Quote:
Hmm .. are you suggesting that the kingdom of Judah should have killed Manasseh?

I don't believe that's a fair reading. Witness David's dealings with Saul. The Lord had rejected Saul as king over Israel, but David would still not harm a hair of his head, because he was the Lord's anointed. Flee from him, yes. Cut off a piece of his garment while he was sleeping ,yes. Go to the Philistine cities and serve as a mercenary in their equivalent of the Foreign Legion, yes. But not kill the king. That was in God's hands.

Nor do we see any prophet save one ever ordering the people to slay the king. And that was not a general insurrection -- it was a specific commission to a specific individual (Jehu).

The way it seems to have worked in the OT is that when kings went wrong, the prophets were sent to them to call them back to the path of righteousness. If they didn't listen, God would commission a particular individual (usually a foreign adversary, like the Babylonians or the Philistines) to kill him and remove him from his place. But there is no mechanism in the OT for rebellion against the king, even a wicked one. Which makes perfect sense. If people were permitted to kill the king every time the king went wrong, no king could sit on his throne for long without having some madman trying to kill him and claiming religious justification for it.

Bottom line: Unless a prophet like Elisha specifically anoints you to kill the king, you don't have the right to do so; it's murder. Elijah didn't try to kill Ahab, after all.

I'm glad that kasap means 'demonic' rather than 'supernatural', because if it just meant 'supernatural', then Elijah and Jesus would be subject to execution as well, and that's an absurd reading. So it's not supernatural power that's forbidden -- it's exercise of supernatural power from some other source than YHWH. Which makes sense. If YWHW has sworn to provide all the supernatural things you need, going to some other spirit is very like adultery.

Respectfully,


I found the reply to be thoughtful and applicable in today's world, that is not killing mystics on the street. I'd like to ask for what others think on this, especially Ken as author of TOM. I can see where Mannanseh as king of Judah leading his people into idolatry and Spiritual Infidelity would jeopardize Yahweh's plan for his people. I don't see what the Yahuwdym of Yudah were supposed to do short of killing the king or at least exposing and condemning an idolatrous king, which would I think carry a death penalty. Should all of the faithful in his kingdom flee? Were there no prophets of Yah denouncing the king calling for hos execution or arrest?
Offline kp  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, August 5, 2009 5:19:52 PM(UTC)
kp
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Location: Palmyra, VA

The answer to the conundrum is patently obvious. Saul was not a sorcerer; Manassah was. Saul was just an ordinary boob who started believing his own press. He ignored Yahweh's instructions, but he didn't go out of his way to lead the nation astray. Manassah did---and yes, Israel, under the Torah, was therefore under instructions to put him to death (on the testimony of two or three witnesses, of course). If Israel had taken the Torah to heart (not to mention mind) things would have turned out very differently for them, and I believe they would have recognized their Messiah when they saw Him. But Yahweh knew from the beginning what they would do, and He told them so through Moses in Deuteronomy 29. "Religious justification" has nothing to do with it. It's a simple case of following God's clear instructions---whether toward king or commoner. God is no respecter of persons.

That's not to say we today are to go around killing every idiot who claims to be a sorcerer, or even people who try to prevent others from coming to faith in Yahweh. As with much of the Torah, this precept was literal for theocratic Israel (as Theo pointed out) because their job was to deliver Messiah to the world, but it is "only" a symbolic truth for the rest of us: we are to consider the dead to be dead---hence not worth listening to. Yahweh has reserved judgment for Himself. Vengeance is His alone: He will repay. In other words, we can trust Yahweh to do His own "wet work." Soon.

kp
Offline Theophilus  
#3 Posted : Thursday, August 6, 2009 3:41:58 PM(UTC)
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Ken, thanks you for getting back to me on this so swiftly. I can see where especially a king would be in a position to coerce people, in this case Yah's chosen, into Idolatry and imperil the plan Yah had for them, would make removing such a king understandable in this context.

While I agree with you that this instruction, at least in a literal application, was for ancient theocratic Yisra'el, do you see any direct support for this conclusion? For instance, I recall in TOM other Torah passages calling for penal sanctions, that the accused offender(s) was to be brought before the congregation.
Offline kp  
#4 Posted : Friday, August 7, 2009 5:09:05 AM(UTC)
kp
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I'm not suggesting that "due process" was to be dispensed with in the disposition of the punishment for this or any other sin in Israel. One was to be executed only on the testimony of two or three witnesses, a process that would normally take place before the elders of Israel. There is nothing in the Torah that even hints that kings (a future phenomenon) would be held to any lesser standard in this regard. If anything, they were to be judged even more strictly because of the influence they wielded. (There's a lesson in there for our contemporary political leaders: you're not above the law.)

The injunction against consulting spirits is reiterated in Leviticus 20:6. "And the person who turns to mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people."

Again, in Deuteronomy 13, we get a more focused, personal look at the subject: “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for Yahweh your God is testing you to know whether you love Yahweh your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after Yahweh your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from Yahweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which Yahweh your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst..." Idolatry and sorcery are spoken of in virtually synonymous terms, and the penalty was death. Yahweh is using the symbols of the Torah to announce His own intentions: He will not allow those who lead people away from His fellowship to survive.

Moses' message now gets personal: Even “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from Yahweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-11) As with Molech-worship, the penalty in theocratic Israel was to stone the perp. This method of execution was chosen because it involved the whole community: it was they who had been sinned against, so it was they who were to carry out the penalty. All of them. Contrast this to the execution of murderers: they were to be slain by the victim's designated "avenger of blood," a member of the victim's family who had been chosen to track down the murderer and exact retribution. Again the principle is established: he who is sinned against will personally punish the wrongdoer. The point is that in the end, all our sins are an affront to Yahweh Himself. Any temporal punishments we mete out in this life are merely a metaphor for what the real "Offended Party" has promised to do. Sorcery, of course, is not the tame, foolish pursuit we tend to associate with the word today: trying to turn lead into gold, so to speak. It's "heeding the doctrines of demons," it's blocking the door to fellowship with Yahweh. It's the spiritual abortion of God's potential children.

kp
Offline Theophilus  
#5 Posted : Friday, August 7, 2009 9:28:30 AM(UTC)
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Hello Ken,

I did not yet share your last post, but recieved to replies to the prior one. One indicates that he believes that ii Chronicles to be a late book (post-excile) as well as the Torah in it's present form based on the Torah not poviding an explicit mechanism to deal with idolatrous Israelite kings. I offered that the Torah's ommission may also indicate it's early pre-king / judge writing and that Yah did not want to encourage human monarchs among His people. The other reply was much more lenghty:

Quote:
Well, Theophilus, I'm afraid I must completely and wholeheartedly disagree with your commentator.

1) Saul may not have been practicing literal kasaph for most of his reign, but what he did was every bit as bad in God's eyes. "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft" (1 Samuel 15:23), remember?

2) Saul ended his reign practicing kasaph. He consulted the witch of Endor, remember? Almost the very last act of his life? God wouldn't answer him by Urim or by prophets, so he turned to witchcraft for his answers.

3) What about Jeroboam? He instituted the sin of the golden calf and led Isreal into idolatry (1 Kings 12), among the single greatest sins ever committed by a king of Isreal, yet God did not command the Isrealites to kill Jeroboam. Instead, he raised up a prophet to rebuke him (1 Kings 13) and later brought judgement on him and his family at the hands of the house of Baasha.

4) What about Ahab? I mentioned that in the previous post. Elijah rebuked Ahab, but he neither attempted to murder him nor did he command others to do so. He commanded that the priests of Baal should die at Mount Carmel, but he did not raise his hand against Ahab, who was present at the time (1 Kings 18).

5) What about Jehoram? He was a son of the line of David, and he brought to Judah all the detestable practices of the house of Ahab. And he murdered his own brothers. Yet again no man laid a hand on him, nor is anyone condemned for not doing so. Instead, God speaking through Elijah cursed him, and he died of a lingering painful disease (2 Chronicles 21:4-21), "to no one's regret".

6) What about Ahaz, the son of Hezekiah, who was king in the time of the prophet Isaiah? He also sacrificed his son in the fire ... what does the Bible say ...


Quote:
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3 He walked in the ways of the kings of Israel and even sacrificed his son in [a] the fire, following the detestable ways of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites. 4 He offered sacrifices and burned incense at the high places, on the hilltops and under every spreading tree.


2 Kings 16:3-4.

Ahaz was king during the time of the prophet Isaiah, and in fact Isaiah speaking to Ahaz is recorded in the book of Isaiah (Isaiah 7).

There are 66 chapters in the book of Isaiah. It's one of the longest prophetic books in the OT. There is much blessing and much cursing, and many prophetic visions. But at no time does Isaiah attempt to murder Ahaz, nor does he command others to do so.

=====

Shall I go on?

Reading through this brief survey, it seems to me that kings who led Judah or Isreal astray through idolatry or mediums or spiritism or sorcery were the rule rather than the exception. But that still doesn't give the people of Judah or Isreal the right to kill the king. That is murder and treason, *unless* God specifically authorizes the task, as he authorized Jehu to kill Joram and the family of Ahab. It's a duty that God could appoint men to, but no man should simply take upon himself.

I distrust the doctrine that teaches otherwise -- that men have the right to kill other men simply because they see them doing evil. We are not the appointed judges of our fellow men, and God may lead them to repentence. I am worried that following too far down that road leads us to murderous fundamentalists stabbing people to death in their beds "in the name of God". It's happened before. And that is so far from the Spirit I have come to know and commune with it might as well be in another solar system.

IMO, the appropriate response to Manasseh was to refuse to bow down to his idols, and to refuse to carry out his commands to murder the innocent. To play Elijah, rebuking his madness. At the last need, relieve him of his office and confine him to quarters, the way a ship's captain might be relieved due to insanity. I understand something like that happened in the time of King Uzziah, when he came down with leprosy (2 chronicles 26:21). King in name only, he lived in quarantine while Jotham his son ruled the kingdom. Something very like that could perhaps have been done with Manasseh, except that the "disease" in this case isn't leprosy, but being Too Evil To Live.

Instead, we are told

Quote:
Quote:
Manasseh also shed so much innocent blood that he filled Jerusalem from end to end


2 Kings 21:16.

And again in 2 Kings 24:

Quote:
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3 Surely these things happened to Judah according to the LORD's command, in order to remove them from his presence because of the sins of Manasseh and all he had done, 4 including the shedding of innocent blood. For he had filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the LORD was not willing to forgive.


Manasseh didn't do that alone. IMO, the reason judgement fell on Judah was because Judah was with Manasseh, body and soul, and they did not repent of his deeds even in the time of Josiah (Jeremiah 3:6-10). They played along with a good king, but were quick to turn to evil when Josiah left the scene.

Manasseh may have led the nation into evil, but the nation followed him. God sent them prophets to follow, to turn away from wickedness, but they chose to follow Manasseh into sin rather than Jeremiah and those like him into righteousness. IMO, that is why judgement fell on the entire nation rather than on the man only , as happened in the time of Jehoram.

Respectfully,


I am still pondering you most recent post as you speak about due process of witnesses before elders of Israel,a body that no longer exists as such. I don't doubt that Yah continues to detest Idolatry or sorcery or rebellion against Yah but apparently judges these as far as a penalty phase Himself, while expecting us to 1) not participate and 2) denounce the same especially among people how do so and claim fellowship with Yah.
Offline kp  
#6 Posted : Friday, August 7, 2009 12:42:53 PM(UTC)
kp
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Location: Palmyra, VA

Theo, your friend apparently has no conception as to what the Torah was designed to do. He's still looking at it as a list of rules and regulations that used to have temporal value in a limited sense, but ever since Calvary are obsolete---of no consequence and no significance. Listing a bunch of kings of Israel and Judah who did things condemned by the Torah but weren't summarily punished by God's prophets doesn't get us any closer to the truth. The fact is, none of us has kept the Torah---under the letter of its law, we all stand condemned. If we were all held to its standards in this life, none of us would have lived past the age of five or six---and the human race would have died out thousands of years ago. But the instructions, besides informing us of how badly we're blowing it, aren't there primarily to rule our lives---to tell us what to do. They're there as a rehearsal of what God is doing (which explains why only Israel was told to observe them). Everything in the Torah---and I mean everything---points one way or another toward how Yahweh was planning to reconcile us to Himself, and conversely, what would happen if we ignored or attacked Him.

The key to understand the purpose of the Torah is to recognize Yahshua's relationship with it. He came not to "keep" it, but to fulfill it. If you'll indulge me, please allow me to quote a couple of paragraphs from my new book, The Torah Code. I believe they may be helpful in this regard...

Quote:
Yahshua plainly said, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:17-19) So the Law of Moses, He says, stands intact. It is to be both kept and taught. But then, as if this weren’t confusing enough already, God confirmed that gentile (non-Israelite) believers did not have to physically perform the Law of Moses in order to be saved. The test case was circumcision (see Acts 15), a symbolic rite which was still required of Jews. Was God instituting a double standard, one method of redemption and reconciliation for the Jews, and another (easier) road for the gentiles? No. But to understand why, we need to comprehend what Yahshua meant when He said He had come to fulfill the Law but not to destroy it. If keeping the Torah to perfection was the price of peace with God, then exempting a segment of the world’s population from compliance would indeed have destroyed the Law—abrogated it, done away with it. And that, He said, was not His purpose.

The key, therefore, is to understand what it means to “fulfill” the Law. The word in Greek is pleroo, meaning to make full, to fill up, hence to make something complete or perfect, to accomplish, to carry out an undertaking, to bring it to realization or fruition. If the Torah is just a collection of rules we must obey to please God, this makes no sense. How does one “fill up” a regulation? How does one complete a law or bring it to fruition? If I were to obey all the traffic laws while driving my car (yeah, picture that), I may have kept the law, but I still wouldn’t have fulfilled it: nothing about the law would have been fundamentally concluded or accomplished when I reached my destination. The use of the word “fulfill” implies something beyond mere performance. It speaks of realizing a potential, of completing an unfinished act, of keeping a promise. Yahshua was therefore announcing that the Torah was a pledge or vow God intended to keep—through Him. That is, the things God instructed Israel to do comprised a demonstration, a dress rehearsal, of what He Himself had pledged in His heart to do on behalf of all mankind—Jews and gentiles alike.

Israel’s job, then, was to reenact the image of God’s intentions before all of humanity throughout their generations. By keeping the Torah, they would be, in effect, telling the world, Our God has a wonderful plan to redeem fallen man, to restore anyone who seeks Him to fellowship and blessing. And the things we do symbolize and reflect—in detail—the various components of that plan. Well, that’s how it was supposed to work. As it is, since they don’t keep the Torah as God delivered it, all we have to go by is the instructions themselves. It’s as if the Jews were supposed to be the actors in a Broadway play, but they missed their cues, blew their lines, and lynched the Leading Man—so not surprisingly, the production closed on the first night. Now, all we have left is the script.


Hope that helps.

kp
Offline Theophilus  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, August 11, 2009 8:46:59 AM(UTC)
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Hello Ken,

That helped indeed. I've not recieved a reply to the latest as of yet and imagine the prospective that you speak of regarding the Torah, that is as a means of understanding Yahweh through Messiah rather than an arcaich list of does and dont's is rather revolutionary and may take time to digest.


Speaking of which, how is work going with your newest work in prgress? Please let me know if you'd like a proof reader? And thank you again for your timely and thoughtful answers.

Theo
Offline kp  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:28:15 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Revolutionary? Really? Maybe I've been immersed in the Torah too long (is that possible?) but it seems to me that it's the only explanation that makes any sense at all. If the whole thing isn't a complex and comprehensive road map to redemption, if its symbols and metaphors aren't the crux of its message, then we're left with no alternative than to think of Yahweh as a micro-managing sadist. And you can't be a micromanager and a proponent of free will at the same time. I mean, the Torah can't be kept in its entirety today, not literally. It was probably never possible. It's certain that nobody born of Adam's race ever kept it. But One Man fulfilled it---and that's the key.

My new project? Looks like it's going to be another long one. I've only completed one chapter---and I'm about halfway through the next, with 18 planned. I've always been a slow writer: either I'm lazy or extremely thoughtful---I'll let you guys decide :-) When I get a couple of hundred pages under my belt, I'll put the work in progress up on the TOM site, and y'all can proofread your hearts out.

kp
Offline sirgodfrey  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, August 11, 2009 3:14:44 PM(UTC)
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Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

kp wrote:
I've always been a slow writer: either I'm lazy or extremely thoughtful---I'll let you guys decide :-)
kp


gosh, this was sooo funny to me. :)
Offline edStueart  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, August 11, 2009 3:50:48 PM(UTC)
edStueart
Joined: 10/29/2008(UTC)
Posts: 370
Location: Philadelphia

kp wrote:
...if its symbols and metaphors aren't the crux of its message, ...



Crux?

I think your Freudian slip is showing!

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)


kp wrote:
Torah can't be kept in its entirety today, not literally. It was probably never possible. It's certain that nobody born of Adam's race ever kept it. But One Man fulfilled it---and that's the key.



One Man did fulfill it, and you saw what they did to Him!

Revolutionary? ABSOLUTELY!
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
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