Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC) Posts: 2,616 Location: Texas Thanks: 5 times Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
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The folowing is a response I have prepared to a post in another forum. I thought I would post it here and get reations, before I post it in the other forum. I have adopted Yada's response method, and placed my response within the context of the question. My response is in bold italics. 10 Questions Every Intelligent Christian Must Answer I intend to answer all your questions, as well as pose a few of my own, but first I would like to state that if you are asking me to “PROVE” God then I am afraid I will disappoint you. I do not claim that I can prove God, anymore than you can disprove God. You can only Prove that which is quantifiable, God is infinite. I will answer your challenges, some I feel have a good base, and others I feel are emotionally charged, but intellectually void of reason. I would like to point out first off that I am a member of NO religion, and consider myself irreligious at the very least, and in many ways anti-religious as I feel religions often put themselves between man and Yahweh who seeks a personal relationship with us, and not mindless ritual. I state this because some of your questions are more about religious tradition than about God. Through out my answers and my questions I will paraphrase, quote or reference other sources, much of this is because these people are either better qualified to answer your questions, or simply much better with words than myself and can state what I am thinking better than I ever could. While I do not know all there is to know, and am not able to prove to you that God exist I hope that you will at least take the time to read and consider my responses carefully, I have tried to be thorough, but not too verbose with my responses. My Questions however required in depth explanations and so I tried to provide as much as I could with out making it so long and boring that no one would read it. Lastly I have to admit that given the phrasing of the questions, I believe that as far as the author is concerned my answers will likely fall on deaf ears I hope that I am wrong. I write this mostly for others who might read this, so believers might better prepare themselves to debate such things, so that agnostics might see Scripture in a new non-religious way, and so intellectual atheist might see that God and provable Science aren’t at odds. If you are an educated Christian, I would like to talk with you today about an important and interesting question. Have you ever thought about using your college education to think about your faith? College education isn’t everything in fact I believe that if you go to a liberal arts program your likely to be less intelligent than if you didn’t but for the sake of argument I will assume that by college education you mean reason skills and that I agree with in fact it was through the development of my reasoning skills and applying them to faith that I came to mine so I hope I am able to answer your questions.Your life and your career demand that you behave and act rationally. Let’s apply your critical thinking skills as we discuss 10 simple questions about your religion. Here is an example of the kind of thing I am talking about: As a Christian, you believe in the power of prayer. According to a recent poll, 3 out of 4 doctors believe that God is performing medical miracles on earth right now. Most Christians believe that God is curing cancers, healing diseases, reversing the effects of poisons and so on. So here is question 1: Why won’t God heal amputees? It’s a simple question, isn’t it? We all know that amputated legs do not spontaneously regenerate in response to prayer. Amputees get no miracles from God. As the saying goes God works in mysterious ways just because he hasn’t made their leg grow back doesn’t mean their haven’t been miracles in their life, it might be as simple as bringing the love of their life into their life so that they might care for them, give them strength, or keep them from falling into deep depression. You don’t know every detail of their lives so to say God has worked NO miracle for them is speaking in ignorance. If you are an intelligent person, you have to admit that it’s an interesting question No I don’t in fact I think it is ridiculous for reasons that I will soon point out. On the one hand, you believe that God answers prayers and performs miracles. On the other hand, you know that God completely ignores amputees here you go again when they pray for miracles. How do you deal with this discrepancy? As an intelligent person, you have to deal with it, because it makes no sense. Only because you have outlined a ridiculous question that has no basis in reason. In order to handle it, notice that you have to create some kind of rationalization. You have to invent an excuse on God’s behalf to explain this strange fact of life. You might say, "well, God must have some kind of special plan for amputees." So you invent your excuse, whatever it is, and then you stop thinking about it because it is uncomfortable. First of all this is what in debate parlance is called a straw man argument. To disprove God by saying he doesn’t do X so he doesn’t exist, when he never said that he would do X. God never said he would heal amputees, and as far as the answering of prayers no one who believes in God and has lost a limb has asked for God to make it grow back, nor would a true believer be inclined to. As a believer I would ask that God help to care for my family, to be productive, to still serve him, but I would never ask that my limb spontaneously grow back nor do I believe any true believer would, and I don’t believe God would do it even if they asked. For there to be free will any interaction by God in our lives must be explainable in a non-God way. Which is why most non believers are able to look at what a believer might call a miracle and say no it’s not it’s … Which is why a believer will say God caused my cancer to go away and an atheist will say cancers go in to remission all the time your just lucky. Both responses may be valid and you can’t prove either one. Also for future reference just because people believe something about God does not mean that God has said it or that it is part of God’s nature, people misconstrue God frequently I would suggest that you take a look at scripture before you try to disprove God by what believers say. Man is frequently errant. Here is another example. As a Christian, you believe that God cares about you and answers your prayers. See above about confusing God with what peoples believe.So the second question is: Why are there so many starving people in our world? Look out at our world and notice that millions of children are dying of starvation. It really is horrific. Why would God be worried about you getting a raise, see what I said earlier about what believers pray for, true believers are not selfish, arrogant people praying for a raise, while at the same time ignoring the prayers of these desperate, innocent little children? It really doesn’t make any sense, does it? Why would a loving god do this? To explain it, you have to come up with some sort of very strange excuse for God. Like, "God wants these children to suffer and die for some divine, mysterious reason." Then you push it out of your mind because it absolutely does not fit with your view of a loving, caring God. Again we must address free will, if you would simply grasp this concept it would answer a lot of your questions. Most starving people in the world live in oppressive countries where their starvation and poverty is the result of evil men. God gives man free will to do what he pleases unfortunately the human race is very inhumane. And evil triumphs most of the time. God will not interfere with a tyrannical dictator who keeps his people in poverty that is our job. People are starving around the world because people let them starve not because God has chosen them to starve. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. I would also point out that it is believers not atheist who do the most to help the impoverished. The world is not what God wants it to be it is what man has made it. In fact I dare to say if the world were populated only by believers in Yahweh that there would be no starving people. And I know what you’re thinking America is not an evil or oppressive state and we have starving people. I would point out that with the number of food kitchens, charities, shelters and good people that it is nearly impossible to stave to death in America, but we can still work to make it zero, If you’re truly concerned about this I would suggest donating to a charity volunteering or something along those lines. I think that would be a lot more productive than sitting on a web site attacking the people who do the most good. For an interesting look at the role of Free Will in Scripture, read this discussion on the amplified rendering of Romans 13, a passage that is grotesquely misunderstood http://forum.yadayahweh....pter-13.aspx?find=unread the most interesting part starts at post 20.Third question: Why does God demand the death of so many innocent who decides innocence? You? people in the Bible? Look up these verses: - Exodus 35:2 – God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day. First a close reading of this and you will see that is does not say that men were to put these people to death it says that they shall be put to death. And since there is no scriptural evidence anywhere of anyone ever being put to death by man for working on the Sabbath it is safe to say that this is not saying that man should put these people to death. In fact the death is not a physical death, but rather a spiritual death. To fully understand what God is saying here you need to invest considerable time in to understanding the nature of death and afterlife as lined out in scripture, a note to Christians this is not as simple as heaven for believers and hell for non believers, Yahweh has a much fairer and just concept than that. For those with little time and resources I would recommend Ken Power’s The Owner’s Manual found free of charge at www.theownersmanual.net Mr. Powers does and excellent job of explaining the Law’s of Moses. But I digress the death here is one of soul, a person who ignores the Sabbath, and doesn’t repent before their death, of body, will have their soul put to deat, acctully not so much put to death, but allowed to die. A BRIEF EXPLANATION OF SOULS AND AFTERLIFE According to scripture all living things have a soul, even animals, if you don’t believe this take a Strong’s Concordance and look up the word for soul and the word for creature, in the Hebrew they are the same. The soul is not the same as the spirit. The soul is simply consciousness the Greek word for soul in the oldest translations of the Old Covenant scriptures is psyche a term anyone who has taken a psychology course is familiar with. In fact to begin with humans don’t have a spirit they have 3 things, a body, a soul, and the one thing that distinguishes us from all other of Yahweh’s creations, the nashamah, the closest term for this in English while not perfect is conscience, the nashamah is the ability to discern right and wrong and to choose. It is what gives man the ability to choose God or not to, it also gives us the ability to become immortal by choosing God and linking our mortal soul, the soul by definition is mortal, in fact one of it’s definitions is mortality, to his immortal spirit. So man has three choices, something necessary for God to be just, 1.We can choose Yahweh and link our soul to his and live eternally with him 2. We can choose the Adversary, Satan, and link our soul with his spirit, and live eternally with him, this is usually done to obtain power, money and other such things. These are the people actively and knowingly promote false doctrines and draw man away from God for their own glory. 3. This is by far the most common, either out of ignorance, apathy or arrogance a person links their soul to no spirit and as a result the mortal soul dies, a result of not having been born of spirit.
Now that we have an understanding of that (I would encourage everyone to do their own research on that, simply amplify scripture you will learn a lot that simplistic English translations don’t give you, another good resource is www.yadayahweh.com the books available for free there are great, and the forum had some great people who can help you answer many questions, and provide a great discussion) I think it would be safe to say here that the put to death means that those who ignore the Sabbath and do not repent have chosen not to link themselves to God and as a result their souls will be put to death. ON YAHWEH I feel the need to explain this briefly Yahweh is the name of the God of Scripture anywhere you see LORD in scripture the name Yahweh should be their, if you’ll look at the front of any “bible” you will see notes on the translation and this is explained, I choose to use Yahweh’s name as he gave it to us to use. Also if you see the name Yahushua I am referring to the Messiah who most call Jesus Christ. I’m not going to get into this right now but if you’re interested the books I mentioned above are a great start. - Deuteronomy 21:18-21 – God demands that we kill disobedient teenagers. To start God never said this Deuteronomy is a compilation of Mosaic sermons. But the question still has some credibility. First there are many pre-requisites prior to stoning. He must be continuously then he most be brought before the elders of the city, and then if they agree that he is rebellious, a gluten and a drunkard then he could be stoned. We have similar concepts here in America only instead of elders we have courts, and likely we would not stone them, but perhaps lock them up in jail, well in the time of Moses the Israelites were a nomadic people, and jails didn’t exist, the only real alternative would have been to banish him, and in a desert that would certainly be a death sentence as well, probably one much worse that stoning. That is really beside the point however, I’m sure you would call that rationalizing. What’s important here to understand is that the entire book of Deuteronomy are sermons meant to convey messages, not to lay down strict laws that were to be adhered to. What’s important is the theme of the sermon and the example. In this case as the statement ends it says it, they were to put evil away from among them. With the Israelites Yahweh was creating a whole new society unlike any other on earth at the time. It was important for the Israelites to not tolerate evil among them as they were to be set apart as a pure society to show the people of the world the benefits of choosing Yahweh. Again this is metaphorical and not literal the 5th commandment, honor your father and you mother, in a spiritual sense means your father, Yahweh, and your mother, His set apart spirit, feminine in the Hebrew. This example is to show us the results of not listening to our God, our souls would be put to death. - Leviticus 20:13 – God demands the death of homosexuals. See the response to your Exodus 35 example, this is the same thing, it does not say that man was to kill them only that they would be put to death. While were on the homosexuality thing it’s easy to see why God would not want this, First the model of family is important to him, it is the relationship he desires with us, Father, Mother, and Children, homosexuality makes a mockery of it, and a society that promotes it will have no understanding of the relationship God seeks in terms of family. Second it is extremely unhealthy, to see this just look at the statistics regarding STD’s in the homosexual community. - Deuteronomy 22:13-21 – God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry. See above this is the same as your last Deuteronomy question. And so on… There are lots of verses like these. I’m sure given time you could answer all your questions by doing some actual studying, but I have a feeling it still wouldn’t be enough for you, I prefer intellectually grounded atheist and agnostics to emotionally grounded ones, you appear to be in the second category. Incidentally I prefer intellectually grounded believers to emotionally grounded ones, they are at least open minded. It doesn’t make any sense, does it? Why would a loving God want us to murder (Their is a difference between murdering and killing. Murder is unjust Killing no one with any sense of morality would say that shooting the man with a Gun to your child’s head and killing him is the moral equivalent of that same man shooting you child for no reason) our fellow human beings over such trivial matters (Trivial to you now, but not to the people of the time, all is relative to the situation) ? Just because you work on the wrong day of the week, you must die? (you really seem to focus on the details, while missing the big picture, many Jews do this same thing, your focusing on the tree and missing the forest my friend, it is the message and the overall picture that are meant. That makes no sense, does it? In fact, if you think about it, you realize that it is insane. So you create some kind of rationalization to explain these verses. Question 4: Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? You have a college degree, so you know what I’m talking about. You know how science works. You happily use the products of science every day: your car, your cell phone, your microwave oven, your TV, your computer (actually these are more accurately the product of engineering, Science is more a process of studying and understanding) . These are all products of the scientific process. You know that science is incredibly important to our economy and to our lives. (My favorite question) But there is a problem. As an educated person you know that the Bible contains all sorts of information that is total nonsense from a scientific perspective. (Only if you choose not to study it in depth) - God did not create the world in 6 days 6,000 years ago like the Bible says. (First off the scriptures never say that he did, because God never said that he did. This is a very common misconception; unfortunately most Christians have this belief as well. This is due to a mistranslation in every English translation. Scripture says that Yahweh created the universe and everything in it in 6 Yom. Yom is a Hebrew word that can have many meanings, and is only a 24 hour day when specified to be so, something it is not in the Genesis account. Yom can mean a day, an indefinite period of time, a lifetime, a specific period of time, an increment of time, a long time as well as many others. To get a better understanding of this I would recommend that one read the works of Dr. Gerald Schroeder, especially The Science of God, and The Hidden Face of God. As an intellectual person interested in this I am sure you are familiar with the work of Professor Antony Fleu of Oxford. But for those that are not Prof. Fleu is a philosopher whose work on the falsification God was the most cited philosophical paper for 50 years. About 5 yrs ago Prof. Fleu announced to the world that he has always followed Socrates’ advices, “I go where the evidence leads me.” And that the evidence for the existence of God was so overwhelming that he now affirms a belief in a creator God. He cited as part of his reasoning The Hidden Face of God by Gerald Schroeder and A Journey From Modern Science to the Mind of God by Roy Abraham Vargasse. I would recommend them both to you. But The Science of God is the one to read to understand the answer to this question, the science is to complex and long for me to get into right now, if you’re interested take the time to read it. Also Yada’s book Yada Yahweh, free at www.yadayahweh.com does a great job of compiling many great scientist research in to an easy to read and understandable book. The Genesis account is dealt with in the first few chapters.) - There was never a worldwide flood that covered Mt. Everest like the Bible says. (Again mistranslation, the Hebrew word Erets does not always mean Earth, it can but not always. It also means area, region, or simply dirt. In the context of the flood it is most likely region, as only the region where Noah and his people lived needed to be cleansed, as only the descendants of Adam needed to be purged they were the only beings capable of being evil or even choosing. Interestingly there is significant evidence of such a deluge in the area, as shown by the archeological discovery of a large layer of silt having been laid down at once coinciding precisely with when scripture said the flood occurred. - Jonah did not live inside a fish’s stomach for three days like the Bible says. (Again you focus on details and miss the message, but the Pecach chapter of Yada Yahweh explains what is meant here, so I will quote it now, “Immersed and empowered by the Ruach/Spirit, Yownah (a man whose name means Dove, the symbol of Yahuweh’s Spirit) was now prepared and ready to go. He now knew that the stormy waters would be calmed, and he would be protected, if the sailors tossed him into the sea. And just as soon as they did, the Ruach/Spirit which was now in and around Yownah, enveloping him, stopped howling and the sea immediately calmed. Everything worked out according to plan because.."Yahuweh assigned and prepared (manah) a great and empowering (gadowl - large and magnificent, that which multiplies and increases, distinguishes, and enables one to do great things) fish (dag - from dagah, meaning that which increases) to engulf (bala’) Yownah (yownah - dove, the symbol of the Spirit). Yownah was in the inward part (me’ah - the bowels, belly, or heart) of the fish (dag - that which increases) for three days and three nights."
This "giant fish" was the gadowl ruach - the Mighty Set-Apart Spirit of God. It is His Spirit which protects and empowers us, engulfs and surrounds us, gives us life and increases us, magnifying every aspect of who and what we are. This is why Yahweh used gadowl to describe both His Ruach/Spirit and the "dag/that which increases." In fact, it is why dag means "that which increases." It is why He used a different word for Ruach/Spirit and "ca’ar/gale force winds." It is why Yownah’s name means "Dove." It is why ‘oniyah/ship means "that which is allowed to meet and encounter Yah." Further, we are told that the Dove’s enclosure was especially "prepared and then assigned" to the task of enveloping and protecting this man who was now about God’s business.
There is no "whale" in this story. As clearly as words allow, Yahuweh is demonstrating the miracle of His Spiritual protection, and specifically what it means to be immersed in the gadowl/great and empowering Spirit of God. He is telling us that He will protect those who are willing to do His bidding. He is telling us that through the power of the Spirit He will enable us to do what He wants done. Jonah’s mission was overwhelmingly successful. The people of Nineveh repented and Assyria was protected for a century.” I hope that helps.) - God did not create Adam from a handful of dust like the Bible says. (Well according to Evolutionist life evolved from rocks and water so to say this isn’t scientifically accurate is to say evolutionist are wrong. And in the strictest scientific terms the Big Band created nothing but highly energetic light beams, those light beams somehow or another became electrons, neutrons, and protons and those are the building blocks of everything different combinations of electrons neutrons and protons are what form the dust and the ground and us so in essence we are created from the same basic building blocks as all of the universe including the earth.) These stories are all nonsense. Why would an all-knowing God write nonsense (They are only nonsense if you don’t take the time to understand what God really wrote) ? It makes no sense, does it? So you create some type of very strange excuse to try to explain why the Bible contains total nonsense. (Again please read The Science of God Dr. Schroder uses only ancient biblical commentary so as no to be accused of forcing the text to fit the science, and modern science to show the correlation between scripture and science.) Question 5: Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery in the Bible? (I would encourage you to study what slavery was in biblical terms, it was nothing akin to the African slave trade we had in America and around the world. Biblical slavery was more akin to indentured servitude, where by a person owing money or restitution to another entered into an agreement to work for them for a specific period of time six years. Sounds a lot like a contract to me, I need money I agree to work for AT&T for 6yrs and in turn they pay me $45,000 a year. A slave was not to be mistreated, and anyone who did mistreat their slave was dealt with harshly. Look up these Bible verses: - Exodus 21:20-21 – God says that it is OK to own slaves, and it is also OK to beat them. (First I would ask that you read Exodus 21:16 since you’re in the area He that Steals a Man and Sells Him or Keeps Him in His Position, Shall be Put to Death. This pretty much would have ended the African slave trade if it had been adhered to. Slavery was a universal practice at the time, and God knew that it would be impossible to eliminate it in one generation, much like America’s founding fathers, so instead he limited, and humanized it. Much like divorce, it is not his preference, but as man is flawed he accepts its existence. By scripture, a slave/servant was to be treated as a member of ones family. In fact they are included in the 10 commandments, you are forbidden to work your servants on the Sabbath. The very fact that if a slave choose to flee they were to be protected, and not returned would reign in even the most abusive of persons tendency to be cruel. If a person were overly cruel the slave could flee and seek protection. If the servant slacked off, and was not providing full benefit to the person he served, the person was permitted to punish him, much like you might spank a defiant child. If the person were to take this punishment the servant could flee, and be safe, and if the owner were to kill the slave he was dealt with harshly, unlike the African slave trade where the master suffered no penalty. While this was not perfect it did give slaves rights, and an ability to escape harsh conditions. As an aside I would like to point out that the majority of the abolitionists were devout believers in scripture, and in fact used it as their basis for decrying the African slave trade. A side note if I might. This argument does in no way suggest the non existence of God. You could say that this argues that God is not good, or that he is not just, but to say that this disproves God’s existence is coming to an irrational conclusion. It’s like saying the Constitution allows for slavery therefore Thomas Jefferson never existed.) - Colossians 3:22-24 – Slaves need to obey their masters. (I wish you would take the time to read this verse in context, since all it is saying is that whatever you do, do it to the best of your ability, as you are a reflection of God and your reward is not of this world but the next. The one thing that makes me the most angry is people that quote a verse out of context, Christians are guilty of this as well, just look at what you have done with Judge not Lest You Be Judged, look at the entirety of the messiah’s teaching and put that in context you’ll find that many of the religious leaders are guilty of that one, but they teach that it means something else and no one notices, but I digress. - Ephesians 6:5 – Slaves need to obey their masters just as they would obey Christ. (this is saying the same as the above, next time read the context and save your time and mine. Just because the word servant or slave is there doesn’t mean God said, “Go buy a slave, have a great time, beat them, I don’t care.” Your ignorance is showing with such absurd citations.) - 1 Peter 2:18 – Slaves need to obey their masters, even if their masters are harsh. (To quote Ronald Reagan, “There you go again.” You need only go back 3 verses to understand what is being said here, “For so is the will of God, that with well doing you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.” I beseech you please take the time to look at context.) And so on… And why do all intelligent people abhor slavery (the most educated in both Nazi Germany, and Soviet Russia where the most avid supporters of Nazism and Communism, and these two doctrines seemed to enjoy it, they choose not to use the name, but in practice they were the same. Take a look at the conditions of people in Soviet countries, or under Mao in China, or Nazi Germany the conditions endured by people in these Secular Intellectual countries rivals that of any slave. And again the biggest supporters of these doctrines where the most educated of the people in the countries.) and make it completely illegal? You have to come up with some kind of weird rationalization to explain it. (to you everything is “some kind of weird rationalization” unless of course I make the leap that there is no God. You call it rationalization, I call it reasoning.) Question 6: Why do bad things happen to good people? That makes no sense. (actually it makes perfect sense, but again you have to take the time to learn about scripture and understand FREE WILL, I know it’s much easier to just say God doesn’t exist, lets have a drink. But if you take the time it makes perfect sense.) You have created an exotic excuse on God’s behalf to rationalize it. (First I would like to recommend a book that answers this better than I ever could When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Harold Kushner. But simply put Bad things happen to good people because God does not dole out rewards and punishments in this life. God has created a world naturally that flows naturally in which he interacts manifestly from time to time. If all good people were rewarded in this world, and all bad people were punished in this world, than there would be no bad people, but there would also be no free will. If there is constantly a cop driving next to your car, you really don’t have the free will to speed.. Fact of the matter is bad things happen to everybody and God is not some fuzzy thing that keeps good people safe, for the most part he stays out of things. Question 7: Why didn’t any of Jesus’ miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence? It’s very strange, isn’t it? Not Really. You have created an excuse to rationalize it. (No need to, this question makes no sense. Why is it so strange? Yahushua’s miracles were meant to be seen by those who saw them. What evidence would you like for them to leave behind? Besides you would just ignore them anyways, as talk show host Dennis Prager once said, “If God made the clouds spell out in every language and all over the world, ‘I am God, I exist, have a nice day’ within a month people would come up with some explanation not to believe it.” Short of absolute proof, which would eliminate free will, there is nothing God can do that he has not already done as far as evidence goes, you choose to explain it away or ignore it.) Edited by user Tuesday, August 11, 2009 8:50:41 AM(UTC)
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