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Offline Yada  
#1 Posted : Sunday, August 12, 2007 2:14:14 AM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

The opening to Yada Yahweh, Book IV : Salvation, Messianic Prophecies, Chapter 1, Ma'sehyah, Implement of Yah, begins with a discussion of how the prophet Daniel actually prayed and petitioned God. I have always wondered if there was a right way to pray. I recently heard an interesting observation about the prayer that the Messiah came us - "Our Father, who art in heven, Hallowed be Thy NAME..." -namely that, these were not the actual words we were to use in prayer but rather a way to "approach" prayer - a "step-by-step" approach - a process.

It got me thinking as I was reading this chapter (the complete chapter can be found here) about the "what, why, and how" of prayer. Specifically, is there a right and a wrong way to pray?

For example, I had heard that the reason God got so upset with Moses' performance at the rock of Horeb (and, as a result, would not permit him to enter into the promised land) - was that he fouled up a "teaching moment" for the people of Israel (it seems that God is never very happy when man disregards His plans and instructions - hmm...what does that tell us about what we have since done with the Sabbath, observance of the Miqra, religion replacing relationship with Him, etc.?). God wanted Moses to teach the people how to approach and petition Him when they were in need. Yahweh told Moses to "lightly tap the rock with his staff," instead Moses forcibly "struck" the rock (he was surrounded by a screaming mob of Israelites at the time remember). Was Yahweh telling us not to come to Him shouting and screaming with a list of what we needed/wanted? But, rather to approach Him softly, respectfully - not demanding things of Him but asking/requesting.

I have included a few excerpts below for your consideration. I would love to hear your thoughts on the subject.

Daniel 9:20

Quote:
In 538 BCE, Daniel penned these words: "While (‘owd - yet again as, consistently and continually, beyond that which is expected) I was communing (dabar - speaking, conversing, and sharing words), praying (palal - intervening and mediating, interceding and arbitrating, thinking about and foreseeing future contingencies and events) and confessing and casting away (yadah - thankfully praising, confessing the name of God while admitting and throwing away) my offenses and sinfulness (chatta'ah - iniquity, violation against the standard, guilt, and punishment for sin) and the offenses (chatta'ah) of my people (‘am - nation, congregation, kinsmen, compatriots, family, and relatives; a control group sharing a common culture) Yisra'el (sarah - one who perseveres with, contends with, persists with, has power with, and exerts oneself with; el - God ), presenting (naphal - casting down, dropping, and settling, allotting and allocating) my earnest and humble request for favor and grace (tachinnah - petition and plea for mercy for oneself and others) before (paniym - in the presence of, face to face with) Yahuweh my Elohiym/God on behalf of (‘al - according to, on account of, and concerning) the set-apart (qodesh - separate and apart; from qadash - consecrated, prepared, appointed, purified, honored, dedicated, majestic, and highly regarded) mountain of my God." (Daniel 9:20)


Prayer is communion:

Quote:
God explains that prayer is communion. To "commune" is to "converse and build a rapport." It is "to talk together intensely and intimately." Dabar palal is an "interchange of ideas and sentiments." This blessed communion is a relationship, one based on common understanding and empathy. It is what Yahweh meant when He asked Abraham to walk alongside Him, to be at ease with Him, to converse with Him.


Mediating on behalf of one's sins; pleading for yourself and others:

Quote:
Daniel's exchange of words included intercession, in which the prophet mediated on behalf of his sins as well as those of his brethren, pleading for himself and for them. This intervention suggests that Yahuweh responds to the requests we make on behalf of ourselves and others, especially when we recognize that it is His grace, and not our mediation, is what actually prevails. Tachinnah is "an earnest and humble request for grace, an unearned and undeserved favor, a petition for mercy."


Catholics misconstruing the concept:

Quote:
I'm afraid the Catholics have misconstrued this concept too, creating the impression that their confessionals and priestly remedies are somehow relevant. Daniel more correctly "yadah - praised Yahuweh's name while admitting and throwing away" his "offenses and sinfulness" and those of his communities' with "thanksgiving." That is the nature of grace-based salvation - the unearned gift of eternal life. We throw our "chatta'ah - iniquity, violations against the standard, our guilt, and the punishment we have earned for our sin" upon the Ma'sehyah Yahushua so that guilt free, we can be productive spiritual citizens. God willingly accepts them on our behalf. That is why Isaiah says in the 53rd chapter: "Surely our grief He Himself bore, our sorrows He carries.... He was pierced for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities. The punishment for our well being fell upon Him. By His scourging we are healed."


Praying to God - "face to face:"

Quote:
I was especially touched by Yahuweh's use of paniym in regard to Daniel's communion with Him. Paniym suggests that the prophet's conversation occurred "in the presence of" God, "face to face" with Yahweh. Considering the subject of the conversation was chatta'ah, it tells us a great deal about our maker. Rather than show His rightful revulsion at our sin, God allows us to bring it into His presence, literally laying our guilt on Him. A chatta'ah, after all is sin.


The definition of a sin (of course, this raises a much larger question - namely, how does one stop sinning?):

Quote:
A sin is an offense, something that is displeasing to God. It is a violation of Yahuweh's instructions, a breaking of the covenant, making chatta'ah a crime.


A great final thought from FH:

Quote:
Naturally, being a man of God and a "wise man" to boot, Daniel began to pray that God would fulfill his promise. (There’s a lesson in there for us: if you want your prayer answered, pray for what you know God wants.)


You can read the complete chapter here.

Just a few thoughts from the chapter. I would love to hear yours.

-Yada

Edited by user Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:18:24 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Yada  
#2 Posted : Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:41:50 AM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

Along the lines of trying to answer the question: Is there a right/wrong way to pray? How does one pray? I have included below the prayer that the Messiah gave us. For purposes of discussion only, I have inserted a few "steps." What I am trying to ascertain is are there elements which should be included in our prayers? Is there an "approach" to prayer? How did the prophets pray?

This is pretty rough - please feel free to amend and/or expand/delete what I have included. I am really looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Quote:
Our Father, who art in heaven,

Step 1: Praising His name.

Hallowed be thy Name.

Thy kingdom come.

Thy will be done,

Step 2: if you want your prayer answered, pray for what you know God wants.

On earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.

And forgive us our trespasses,

Step 3: asking for forgiveness of our sins (is the formula here that forgiveness is extended to us in the same proportion as we forgive others?)

As we forgive those who trespass against us.

And lead us not into temptation,

But deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom,

and the power,

and the glory,

for ever and ever.

Amen (Aw-mane).
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Offline Jeannie  
#3 Posted : Sunday, August 12, 2007 11:39:31 AM(UTC)
Jeannie
Joined: 6/27/2007(UTC)
Posts: 254
Woman
Location: Florida

Yada, really like what you have put up there and will make me take notice when I read the prayers of others in the Scriptures. I have always prayed the Scriptures for others and myself for the very reason Yahweh said his Word will never return void. It takes longer to pray for someone that way but I have always found it made me more confident in answered prayer.
Offline shohn  
#4 Posted : Sunday, August 12, 2007 6:52:12 PM(UTC)
shohn
Joined: 7/24/2007(UTC)
Posts: 160
Location: Texas

Well, through personal experience I can vouch that the Our Father "formula" above seems to have helped quite a bit for me. I've had a number of "synchroncities" just another word for little coincidences / baby miracles that seem to go all in a row that relate directly to a recent prayer. Whenever I do pray for a request, many times it the prayers that are answered I can almost feel are going to be answered - somewhere deep down in my gut, then there are prayers that later when I reflect on them, I think, that was a silly prayer, shame on me! The ones that get answered seem to be things related to furthering the Good News, family, character improvement. I still haven't received that ferrari though- j/k.

Seriously though, this last week as a matter of fact, my sister in law was put in the hospital for stroke, they did the cat scan and on the first one scan it showed she had something in her brain. Then they sent out mad prayer requests and the next day the cat scan was clean. She was back home three days later. That isn't the only one, but there have been a bunch of stuff like that that has happened to me since my eyes started opening. Now granted, there are other prayers that got answered when I hadn't learned all this stuff, but they just didn't seem to be as frequently answered without the formula.

On another note, It is almost like the prayers that do get answered I can "feel" that they will be answered. I don't know how else to explain it really. I've also noticed that sometimes when you get a lot of folks praying for the same thing using "true believers" whatever that means, then freaky out of the blue weird stuff starts happening. Not aliens mind you, but rather coincidences and medical mircales and stuff.

I run a site to try and help people who have angry spouses wanting divorces, etc. Anyway, just from having been through that type of mess myself within my marriage and through working with others in the position I was, I noticed that there is a distinct difference between prayers that get answered and those that won't. One part of the equation seems to be actually giving up completely and just asking our Father to take care of it, and making sure whatever it is, will work towards His plan.

I kinda wrote about this awhile back on my site, but maybe it will offer a unique "emotional or intuitive twist" to prayer that a lot of people I've spoken with seem to agree with through their own personal experiences http://www.glassgloves.c...winkles-of-light-saber/.

My father in law has also noted various "medical miracles" over the course of his life... his own father was about to die several years and he said that he went into a closet literally while in the hospital and he just felt seomthing. He felt his prayer had been answered and guess what, someohow his pops didn't duy that day. His pops came out of it and was back home a couple of weeks later. He is still alive to this day.

Anyway sorry about putting hte link up there, but I thought it would actually be relevant to this discussion.
--
Shohn of Texas
Offline Tiffany  
#5 Posted : Sunday, August 12, 2007 9:09:47 PM(UTC)
Tiffany
Joined: 6/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 185
Woman

I have always wondered about the "Daniel Style" praying, and that of the prayers of most of the men in the OC. It was for this reason, I have always wondered what it would be like to walk with Yahweh, I mean to have him show up and walk and talk with me.

I feel now that the kind of relationship I have with Yahweh is one that gives way to the opportunity to draw near to him, to sit and just wait. I feel like I have this awesome dad who is just waiting for me to come and say what is on my heart and he will have this ability to calm my every worry and concern.

Quote:
Paniym suggests that the prophet's conversation occurred "in the presence of" God, "face to face" with Yahweh. Considering the subject of the conversation was chatta'ah, it tells us a great deal about our maker. Rather than show His rightful revulsion at our sin, God allows us to bring it into His presence, literally laying our guilt on Him. A chatta'ah, after all is sin.


I was just having one of these conversations with Yahweh tonight, as I thought I had worked through this issue in my spirit and most importantly gone before Yahweh with it and felt forgiven, yet someone tried to tell me otherwise. But this is probably the one thing I love about Yahweh more than anything in the entire world, is that he had already forgiven me and was willing to wait with me as I talked through it with him again. Its funny how he is so willing to listen to our sins and given the opportunity he will still sit down and wait with me. I love Yahweh, and I am so grateful for all that he has done.

All prayer is, is a conversation with Yahweh!

Offline Yada  
#6 Posted : Sunday, August 26, 2007 12:15:35 PM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

I was listening to a talk given by Chuck Missler about Daniel praying (in Daniel 9:3-21) and I thought I would share it with you.

Quoting Mr. Missler (he uses both Jesus/Christ/Lord, and Yahshua):

Quote:
“He’s praying for God’s will to be done – that may throw us a little, we sort of give God our wish list, ‘Hey God, I’d like you to do this, that, and this for me…and be sure to watch over…’ Naaah, that’s not prayer, yeah there’s a place for that but, Prayer is God’s way of enlisting you in what He wants to do. That’s why Yahshua’s prayer says, ‘Thy Kingdom come’ Why do you have to pray for His Kingdom to come? Of course it’s coming. No, He wants you to pray for it – that’s His way of getting you involved in what He’s doing.”


I think Yada refers to this concept as being "engaged."

-Yada
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Offline shohn  
#7 Posted : Sunday, August 26, 2007 2:27:06 PM(UTC)
shohn
Joined: 7/24/2007(UTC)
Posts: 160
Location: Texas

I listen to Chuck almost every morning - I haven't heard him say Yah'shua yet, but I'm looking forward to it. Perhaps he is easing everyone out of Babylon?
--
Shohn of Texas
Offline Sator  
#8 Posted : Monday, August 27, 2007 3:14:14 PM(UTC)
Sator
Joined: 6/29/2007(UTC)
Posts: 37
Location: orange county, CA

Yada,

In the first message above 3rd paragraph:

"God wanted Moses to teach the people how to approach and petition Him when they were in need. Yahweh told Moses to "lightly tap the rock with his staff," instead Moses forcibly "struck" the rock"


You probably know this but there were 2 times where the rock was involved with bringing forth water. The second is what got Moses into trouble.

The first time
Exodus 17:6-7 shows the first time that the rock(Yahushua) is smote to bring forth water(life).
After Moses cried out to Yahweh of what to do about the people. Yahweh responded and Moses did as Yahweh told him.


The second time
In Numbers 20:8 Moses was told by Yahweh to speak to the rock. Also there isn't any indication that Yahweh was angry at the people for wanting water. Instead Moses spoke anger toward the people and he hit the rock twice instead of speaking to it.

(opinion)-
The rock seems to be a type of Yahushua, smiting the rock the first time would then be Yahushua's suffering and death. The water being life through faith. After that point you only need to speak to Yahushua to receive water. By the rock being smote the second time as if Yahushua would have to die twice (or more) it totally messed up the teaching of coming before Yahweh ans speaking to him as you mentioned above.

Sator



Offline kp  
#9 Posted : Monday, August 27, 2007 5:34:20 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Sator, you've got the right idea, but the contrast is far more vivid than you've painted it. The first time Moses was told to "strike" the rock (Exodus 17:6), a very violent word was used. It's nakah, meaning "to strike, smite, hit, beat, slay, kill...scourge, give a thrust... attack, destroy, conquer, subjugate, ravage, chastise, send judgment upon, punish, destroy...to be wounded, to be beaten, to be (fatally) smitten, be killed, be slain." (Strong's) On this side of Calvary, we can see that it's a perfect description of the crucifixion of Yahshua to atone for our sins---to bring forth the waters of cleansing upon us. But (as you said) once the "Rock" had been struck once, all that was necessary to bring forth water from that time forward was a simple request. The verb this time is dabar: to speak, to converse, to talk with someone. That's a picture of prayer. Moses in his anger, of course, messed up the metaphor, and it cost him his entrance into the promised land.

By the way, though you've stated your conclusion as "opinion," the New Covenant puts it in the realm of established fact. See I Corinthians 10:4.

kp
Offline Yada  
#10 Posted : Thursday, September 20, 2007 8:35:54 PM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

For those "newbies" out there (like me) who are always on the lookout for how to type information (I call it "walk-the-talk" type information), you might like to take a look at this article: How to Pray.

The author mistakenly uses "Jesus Christ" instead of Yahushua. You can find the article here.

What do you think of the "three strikes and you're out" (asking for somehthing 3 times and then forgetting about it) approach?
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Offline shohn  
#11 Posted : Friday, September 21, 2007 3:21:13 PM(UTC)
shohn
Joined: 7/24/2007(UTC)
Posts: 160
Location: Texas

It seems like Moses was told "enough" at one point as well after repeatedly asking to go into the promised land. Reminds me of my mom when I was younger, and what I say to my kids sometimes today!
--
Shohn of Texas
Offline Yada  
#12 Posted : Monday, December 24, 2007 7:30:21 AM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

I found this on another site and thought I would share it on this thread:

Something to Think About

In happy moments, praise Yahuweh.
In difficult moments, seek Yahuweh.
In quiet moments, worship Yahuweh.
In painful moments, trust Yahuweh.
In every moment, thank Yahuweh.
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