wrote:Oh ye of little faith.
Damn right, I have zero faith. Faith is irrelevant. And before you grab your bible and stat pointing out all the time “faith” is in it, know this, the Greek word Pistis is errantly translated Faith. Pistis means Trust and Reliance, both of which are based on knowing and understanding. Faith is only necessary when you neither know nor understand.
And unless you mean I have little faith in the ability of man to be perfect, this is irrelevant to the discussion. But if that is what you meant then yes I have zero faith in man.
wrote:Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:
Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Please digest these two and see where it takes your thinking.
Do not think like many Christians and others.
I fail to see the relevance of these verses in the context of a discussion on mans need for a savior.
If you are trying to use these verses to say that man is perfect because God made us and God can’t make something that isn’t perfect, then you completely miss the point of free will, and until you grasp that you will not understand anything God has revealed. By your logic Hitler was perfect.
And if you would spend 10 minutes looking around the forum you would understand clearly that almost nothing here agrees with Christianity
wrote:Is God and His works perfect.
The way many Christian see God is to see Him screwing up heaven with evil.
Strike one.
Again WE ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. And I’ve never heard anyone say he screwed up heaven with evil. Sin cannot exist with God.
wrote:They then see God screwing up man's beginning in Eden.
Strike two.
God didn’t screw up Eden, Man did. Adam and Chava used their free will badly. They chose to diobey God, and they were removed from Eden, because Eden like Heaven cannot have Sin in it.
wrote:They then see God cleaning house in Noah's day with Genocide and starting over.
Strike three
Well, how exactly do you take the flood? Are you one of those people who pick and chooses arbitrarily what part of God’s Word you are going to believe? God judged what man had done with his free will, and found them guilty, as such they were executed so that the few who choose Him, would not be endanger.
wrote:They now wait for His return at end time to clean house yet again.
Strike four.
Strike four?
Yes, he has to come and clean up the mess we made.
wrote:God plays by His own rules I guess.
He made the rules, we all play by them.
wrote:You and I both know that this view must be false if God‘s works are as perfect as scripture indicates.
Unless you don’t understand God’s view of perfect, for him perfect is having a loving relationship with us. For there to be love there must be free will, and if there is free will there is room, plenty of it, for us to make a mess of everything.
wrote:To my way of thinking, God gets things right the first time and every time.
He does we don’t
wrote:This is why He has not and will not return. His perfect systems are here today the same way that they were here in the beginning. He judged Eden as good.
It is just to us to see it. I do. Even with sin and evil and woes, all is perfect and humming along exactly as God wants it to. I call it evolving perfection.
Did your version of God get it right or does He need to return to fix things.
I just love how you quote Scripture to suit your arguments, but dismiss anything that doesn’t.
God made the world perfect.
God gave man free will so that we could form a loving relationship with us.
We completely messed it up, and badly.
And for the most part his return isn’t to fix things; it is to enjoy a relationship with us. Fixing things won’t take long for him.
wrote:Only an idiot of a God would demand the death of his own son to forgive man instead of just forgiving him outright.
Your ignorance of Scripture and your willingness to pick and choose astounds me.
God did not demand his sons sacrifice. Yahushua gave himself willing. Yahuweh knew that man was not perfect, so he built in a way to redeem us. He became one of us, then he lived a perfect life, then he took upon our sins, and he offered to pay the price for us. He did it willingly, and he did it out of love for us.
wrote:Why have you forsaken me is answered with ----because it is immoral to become a self aggrandizing scapegoat and to teach people that they can profit from the death of an innocent man.
Again please read Psalm 22, the Psalm that the MessiYah was quoting when he said that.
And if that is what you see happening in the MessiYah’s death, than you are as blind as you are ignorant, and you need to as Yahushua would say Metanoeo, change your perspective, to that of the Torah. Only when you understand the Torah can you understand the MessiYah’s sacrifice.
wrote:God would demand that we walk proudly into heaven on our own merit and not on the merits of a murdered innocent.
The entire message of Scripture is that we can’t get to heaven on our own, God did all of the work for us. All we have to do is Trust and Rely on his plan. And in order to do that you need to Know and Understand His plan, and for that you must study His Word, as He revealed it in the Torah Prophet and Writings
Edited by moderator Wednesday, March 3, 2010 1:42:20 AM(UTC)
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